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Altamaha
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I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop!
      #144547 - 27/10/09 12:57 PM

First, a few disclaimers: I do not own a double rifle, have never shot one, will never own one (but I would like to!) and likely will never handle one or shoot one. I am just a poor old retired mechanic.

Two, Enough debating on the original OSR thread, so let us not get into another debate in this thread.

Three, I have read of OSR long ago, but it was not called this, just a short wording about using monometals in doubles. Have no idea of where I read of this, might have been in a magazine or a reloading manual.

Four, I have frequented machine shops most of my life (some 65 years) during this time I have tinkered with Mausers, and played with a few pressure testing systems.

So, here goes:

Is there merit in designing a test, using turned down barrels, equipped with Dr. Oehler's strain gauge system, taking careful measurements of the barrel outside diameter, firing a monometal bullet at standard velocity, then measuring the barrel for OSR? Maybe in conjunction with pressing monometals through a turned down barrel with a hydraulic press.

As I own a machine shop, the machining will be a snap. I have access to the Oehler System, the use would take some coordination, as the chap owning it is a distance away. I have used it in the past and have a M98 action set up as a single shot test receiver, mounted on a heavy recoil block.

So, double owners, what would a good test require in barrel thickness, bullet/cartridge combination, rifling type, etc? Maybe coating the barrel outside diameter before firing to reveal OSR for photography.

I am not saying I will be able to immediately jump into a project like this, due to other irons in the forge, but I should be able to work on this project this winter.

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Altamaha]
      #144549 - 27/10/09 01:23 PM

Another BRAVO!

Can't wait to hear what you find out!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Altamaha]
      #144553 - 27/10/09 02:50 PM

I second the bravo.


On barrel surface prep, go for the properly struck finish of a fine brit double rifle, with walls right about at .090" in the oiled and rust-blacked finish.

I haven't chapped a set of double rifle barrels yet, haven't handled a set of properly-chooched barrels showing OSR optical evidence either, but in my few 40 years of time around engineering and machine shops I've seen distinctly local surface finish affect on plenty of service parts that had been taken through the limits of their material's modulus of elasticity, affect that might measure in the fifty millionths neighborhood on the inspection table, but signs that something significant had occurred in the material.
The fine quality and finish of properly struck and blacked barrel steel would seem to me to be a good canvas for that kind of surface-finish affect.

From my experience, when the metal's locally lost it's nature it'll often somehow show at the surface.

Simply pushing mono solids through a barrel might not have the same effect as running them at the pace of normal internal ballistics.
Think of the difference some sweet-tart's ass might feel between a stroke with a buggy-whip and a good crisp snap with the same searing tip.
She'll likely turn and 'change her temper' to some extent at the crack, it'll definitely leave a mark that'll change the local landscape too.

Firing a cartridge in a rifle barrel is a very dynamic event.
Similar to the buggy-whip and temptress's ass analogy, when certain thresholds of energy delivery are crossed, there can be amazing consequences.

Just putting that out there for thought.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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alexbeer
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #144557 - 27/10/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

Think of the difference some sweet-tart's ass might feel between a stroke with a buggy-whip and a good crisp snap with the same searing tip.
She'll likely turn and 'change her temper' to some extent at the crack, it'll definitely leave a mark that'll change the local landscape too.
Firing a cartridge in a rifle barrel is a very dynamic event.
Similar to the buggy-whip and temptress's ass analogy, when certain thresholds of energy delivery are crossed, there can be amazing consequences.




Tinker,

Your comparison analogy has me in stitches; need to clean the coffee of the computer - again

All the very best

Alex

alexbeer.com

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: alexbeer]
      #144565 - 27/10/09 05:59 PM

Tinker, not only hilarious, but exactly what we are looking for!

The gun I mean...

Your assessment is precisely what was discussed on the previous thread. Which "touch" the "ass" prefers, so-to-speak, now that, I do not know, but the principle you describe can be demonstrated in a variety of ways.

On a previous thread, 400ne suggested .078 as a barrel wall thickness of a thin-tubed gun. I'm not sure if it would matter or if that would be a significant detail, but such walls being much thinner than your .090, and assuming such barrels are safe, it would seem to me the thinner walls would give the best possible opportunity for a demonstration of OSR.

Correct?

I do not know what is considered the minimum threshold of safety on a, say, .458 barrel, but a related experiment would be a progressive reduction of barrel wall thickness combined with a firing to destruction of the barrel. I have no idea what diameter would allow for failure, but if the maker took the proper safety precautions it would be an interesting side experiment. Looked at another way, he obviously needs to be prepared {safety} for different demonstrations of material failure {not just relatively benign OSR} if he is going to turn the tubes down beyond known safe diameters.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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gryphon
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144566 - 27/10/09 06:08 PM

the recent thread showing that incredibly high speed bullet photography?....would not that camera system show such an event and actually capture it?

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Paul
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: gryphon]
      #144573 - 27/10/09 08:09 PM

Someone who has Hatcher's Notebook: is it true he turned down the barrel of a Springfield to 1/16th inch over the chamber, yet still couldn't destroy it with a standard load?

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Paul]
      #144575 - 27/10/09 08:50 PM

Quote:

Someone who has Hatcher's Notebook: is it true he turned down the barrel of a Springfield to 1/16th inch over the chamber, yet still couldn't destroy it with a standard load?



I'll quote it here, pages 201, 202 from "Hatcher's Notebook":

"The late Sir Charles Ross, whom I knew very well, had told me about his experiments on the thickness of barrels, and I had read some remarks by Newton on the same subject, but I couldn't get sufficiently authentic facts to satisfy me, so I collected some firsthand information by turning down a Springfield barrel to 1/8 inch wall thickness and firing it with regular and high pressure cartridges. As the results were not visible, I turned the barrel down so that it was only about 1/16 inch thick over the chamber. It held three regular service cartridges perfectly. I then put a 75,000 pound shot through which blew a piece out of the side, as can be seen in the photograph. As the thickness of the regular barrel at this point is 5/16 of an inch, it is plainly evident that the strength should be sufficient."

The photo is included in the book.

No mention of rifling forced to the outside of the barrel.

BTW: I think Gryphon's idea is brilliant! High speed photography would at least show the semi-fluid, vibratory, whipping nature of a barrel subjected to the effects of the firing of a shot tho if OSR is cumulative any single series of photos might not show it clearly.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (27/10/09 08:54 PM)

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Paul
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144578 - 27/10/09 10:18 PM

Thanks 9.3, I'd read the Hatcher experiment referred to by a reviewer but never seen the reference.
- Paul

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Paul]
      #144583 - 28/10/09 12:35 AM

Quote:

Thanks 9.3, I'd read the Hatcher experiment referred to by a reviewer but never seen the reference.
- Paul



You are welcome.

He mentions Newton, and I have a compendium of Newton's writings. Offhand I do not recall a specific experiment where he turned a barrel down but I'll look and see if I can find same in my material. If so, I'll post what he has to say.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Altamaha
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144601 - 28/10/09 05:44 AM

I have Hatcher's, guess it is time to drag it off the shelf and blow the dust off.

I also have Howe's High Velocity writings, I will likewise take a look to see if anything showed up. I recall he worked with two diameter barrels, in which the bullet was swaged about half way down the barrel upon firing.

Safety, yep, when I proceed to turning a barrel down in stages until destruction, I will be behind a berm with a pull lanyard!

All we need is a financier with deep pockets for the high speed photography.

I am still savoring on a visual description of Tinker's illustration. Nice analogy.

And a well polished finish is a requirement for revealing any OSR, so this will go into my test requirements.

Keep the thoughts coming.

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gryphon
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Altamaha]
      #144607 - 28/10/09 07:19 AM

All we need is a financier with deep pockets for the high speed photography.

Or maybe a photographer with an interest in rifles/guns or perhaps simply as a challenge to their expertise.

--------------------
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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: gryphon]
      #144616 - 28/10/09 10:40 AM

The camera that captured the bullet-impact scenes is high-tech, high-buck kit.


Although the pressure of the ultra-liberal lead-bullet ban agenda might put us all in more of a 'need' for the final solution unleaded bullet design, I'm not going to sweat this one with any of my value-engineered to death (spare..!?) time.
North Fork and the guys down in SA seem to have for now answered the problem with a product that no one seems to be bitching about.

It's much more likely that I'd be found out in the machine shop with a dressage whip in one hand and a streaked and submissive strumpet's ass in front of my camera than huddled over a crapped-out double rifle with a bunch of smartypants hunters trying to get the lighting right for a photo opportunity on OSR damage.

That's something you CAN take to the bank.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gryphon
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #144619 - 28/10/09 12:55 PM

I will take the OSR photography over whipping some strumpets arse.

--------------------
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Altamaha
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: gryphon]
      #144621 - 28/10/09 01:21 PM

This is the second time I have dropped off the chair after reading Tinker's postings!!!!!

You need to go live and beat out Leno. No contest.

Anyway, I have several boxes of Jensen 250 gr 338 bullets, they have the small turned rings like the current North forks. Neat bullets, push them high and still have fine accuracy. Not made anymore, so I use them only for the serious elk hunting.

Am I wrong, but did not Jensen turn into North Fork????

My test proposal is just an academic exercise to see if I can duplicate OSR. Something fun to do when the snow is 3 feet deep and outdoor activities come to a halt. Fire up the shop wood stove, oil the lathe, and make chips!

Back to reality, for those owning a OSR barrel, at what point along the barrel is OSR first noticable? What is the bore diameter and wall thickness at the start of OSR? Does OSR gradualy start and become worse as we get closer to the muzzle? What is the wall thickness at the muzzle?

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DoubleD
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Altamaha]
      #144623 - 28/10/09 02:10 PM

Casio makes a series of high speed cameras the have the capability of recording at 1200 FPS..would that be fast enough?

Here is a sample of frame capture from a Casio camera.


3/5 scale model of Paixhans 500kg Monster mortar as 11 inch diameter projectile leaves the barrel.

Don't know if the camera would catch the bullet going down a thin barrel. It might be just a little to slow or not.

Bullet traveling at 1200 fps, might catch 2 frames of a 24 inch barrel, or one frame at 2400 fps in a 24 inch barrel

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DD, Ret.

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DoubleD]
      #144628 - 28/10/09 03:48 PM

To get the kind of video quality seen in the recently posted high-speed video capture of bullet impacts, you'll need something with 1,000,000 frames per second refresh and capture rate. You'll also need to link that with a lighting system capable of running with it.

Although it's true you can get clear and crisp *still image* capture with relatively inexpensive equipment (really what's necessary is to get an enormous amount of light on the subject at exactly the moment in time necessary to 'show it' to your film or digital imaging media during an amazingly small amount of open aperture time) the real challenge is to get that to happen a million times a second.

The recently posted videos of bullet impact were likely shot on a serial string of cameras too. Even ultra hotrod equipment can only capture a certain number of frames before it either runs off the memory wagon or starts to cook.
At somewhere in the $200kUSD per camera price range, my guess is that there was a multi million dollar rig set up and running for the clips of each bullet path in that video shot by Werner Mehl from Kurzzeit

I'm thinking with that kind of system you'd be able to see the atomization of oil particles spraying off the barrel steel in a taurus cloud kind of effect.
Or not.

I wonder if there's such video on the web somewhere.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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450_366
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #144634 - 28/10/09 06:33 PM

I saw a sweet one, it had an enormus hard drive and did capture for about 10sek.
The thing was it did it all the time, when you had a decent capture, you pressed stop and you got the last 10sek. on the drive.

Price, didnt ask.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 450_366]
      #144672 - 29/10/09 03:24 AM

I think tests such as this could be intriguing and helpful, but - the barrel steel would have to match the possible variety of the older guns in question - wouldn't it?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Altamaha
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DarylS]
      #144677 - 29/10/09 04:23 AM

Daryl brings up a point of which I am pondering. My thoughs are a recent 4140 barrel may not be suitable. But, if OSR showed up in a 4140 barrel, then we would be safe in assuming it would certainly be present in barrels made from older steels.

Anyone know of a source for barrel steel specs for the earlier doubles? Might the John Rigby Firm have an answer? I also wonder if the John Rigby Firm would have any interest in this project.

I always wanted to build a cut rifling machine, even have some designs, they are not that difficult to make. Now might be the time. Then I would be able to select a steel closely matched to the older barrel steels.

For Tinker, what do you think, is the most important factor Modulus of Elasticity, Ultimate Tensile Strength, or Elastic Limit?

Someone mentioned this subject was thrashed in the 1980's. Anyone have an article or a reference?

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Altamaha]
      #144691 - 29/10/09 09:38 AM

Barrel material is not the only consideration.
The mechanical structure of a double rifle's (or combination/cape/vierling/drilling/etc) barrels (a weldment essentially) bring some specific and local restraint and stress-risers to the barrel tubes.

With ribs, wedges, etc, firmly (by design permanently) attached to the barrels, their expression of the 'donut wave' energy which occurs during the event phrase of internal ballistics is restrained for a portion of the barrel's radial section.
Furthermore, at the various seams (which are functionally stress-risers) there are distinct heat-effected zones.

Chew on that.

Via anecdotal study and discussion, the OSR syndrome appears to be *LOCALIZED* (along the helical path of rifling, in a helical banded pattern, duplicating the array of rifling) expression of excursions beyond elastic limit that print a pattern or optical effect on the exterior of the barrel surface.
This would definitely account for the transformation of the metal's characteristics (change of regulation, loss of accuracy...) WHILE maintaining relatively sound mechanical performance (the barrels don't completely bulge or blow) at the same time.

Acceleration is serious business.
We're talking Einstein shit here and those skinny barrel walls are seeing more and more force per area unit as the bullet cruises down the tube towards the muzzle.
More barrel tends to equal more velocity per given cartridge load!
That could have something to do with OSR showing up 'less near the breech, more near the muzzle' if that's the case.

If anyone here has a relationship with Werner Mehl or Kurzzeit (or wants to start one), that would be a good facility to consider for photo/video-documenting this phenomenon.
They already have the equipment.
It appears as if they have the interest in video-documenting the destruction of firearms and projectiles.

There is plenty of conviction, some available resource, and the possibility of some commercial industry participation to the point where the issue might even end up getting current technology in the pursuit of positively documenting this OSR business for those who will need 'picture-proof' of the 'Hard Monolithic Solid + (Classic or modern, *properly struck*) Double Rifle = OSR' recipe.
That might help settle the issue for another 20 years.







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gryphon
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #144692 - 29/10/09 09:46 AM

And if Barnes or any other bullet manufacturer wants to prove that nothing untoward is happening by using their projectiles in DR`s then they would or should throw some money into the ring and fund a search for the truly definitive answer to absolutely prove this topic to any that question it.

Perhaps their shall I say silence so far on the matter to my knowledge is a matter for some conjecture!

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500Nitro
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: gryphon]
      #144693 - 29/10/09 09:53 AM



I think you may find also that the Shape / Sharpness of the Rifling has something to do with it.

Maybe, maybe not, but that could be just one factor in a whole load of factors.

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #144695 - 29/10/09 10:20 AM

Quote:

commercial industry participation



Some are indeed working on it as we speak...

Stay tuned.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #144742 - 30/10/09 01:53 AM

Quote:



I think you may find also that the Shape / Sharpness of the Rifling has something to do with it.

Maybe, maybe not, but that could be just one factor in a whole load of factors.




I agree wholeheartedly, lots of questions. TKS guys.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #145045 - 03/11/09 06:17 AM

…………..SUGESTED TESTS FOR OSR IN SINGLE TEST BARRELS

The tests you are considering are food for thought, and may shed some light. The strain gauge would have to be done at every inch of the barrel from the end of the chamber to the muzzle. This is because all the OSR I’ve seen has been in different places down the length of the barrel. Not only that but I have never seen , nor heard of OSR on a single barrel. IMO, the reason for this is, first because most single barrels are thicker for the full length of the barrel, “AND” the single barrels are not “TIED” to anything for their full length. I think since OSR is not the most common damage to DOUBLE RIFLE barrels which is the separating of barrels from their ribs, and wedges. The barrels of a double rifle do not experience the common barrel harmonics of a single barrel, simply they are tied to the ribs, and wedges, and to the other barrel. This bars the so-called whipping of the barrel as the bullet passes through it that is experienced with a single barrel. So IMO, to make the test legitimate, one would not only have to have proper steel, proper wall thickness, and be tied to another barrel, ribs, and wedges. The barrel profile could be determined by simply measuring a batch of double rifles of a given caliber, and average it out. The biggest problem would be getting barrels of the proper steel. Most of the older barrels would have cut rifling, while new one for the most part will be Cold hammer forged over a tungsten mandrel..

The fact is, as well, it is not chamber pressure that causes the damage to double rifle barrels, or any barrel for that matter, caused by improperly made mono-metal bullets, but the fact is that the barrel’s rifling can’t adequately engrave the hard solid metal, and is stressed beyond it’s capacity to retract after the bullet passes through the bore. This could be a cumulative effect, or may be one of the “STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL’S BACK” thing. Butit is easier for the barrel to expand when both sides are equal but in a double it is far easier to expand on one side than the other when the bullet is passing a place in the barrel where a wedge is between the two barrels. So the barrle is stressed beyond is make up on one side! The side that can be seen from the outside.

All bullet cause a temporary swelling of the barrel (like an egg passing through a snake) as the bullet passes through the barrel, but the ease of the swaging of the bullet by the bore, is easier with bullets of lead core, or with properly cut pressure rings, to allow the displaced metal to flow into the grooves between the rings, than with a solid that is simply too hard to be swaged at all, along with no place for the metal to go that is displaced by the rifling.

The pictures of OSR are photographable, but it is not easy. I have used one method to see the OSR with the naked eye, that could be used to photograph it. The barrel can be coated with a very light film of oil, then dusted with a light coating of talcum powder on the barrel. Now take a cloth glued to a flat hard piece of plastic about 5” wide, and wipe the cloth down the barrel so the cloth doesn‘t touch the low places, but only wipes the tops of any protrusions. This leaver the oil & talcum between the bulges cause by the OSR. This can be photographed by taking the picture at an acute angle down the barrel, with a defused light source, and no flash.

Now I will withdraw again because I seem to be a bug in a couple of poster’s craw, and I don’t want to be a distraction to turn this from a debate to a pissing contest!
.............................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145086 - 03/11/09 02:17 PM

DB1:

Excellent post and consider the axe buried the hole covered well.

The tests planned will start with single barrels guns {two bigbore NE calibers}. Barrels are ordered. I have been told the strain gauges will be attached at 6-inch intervals but might be set up at different intervals.

As for photographing OSR, the use of a digital may make it somewhat easier. Give this a try; in a dead black room {closet, etc}, shine a strong spot light as from a powerful, focussed flashlight on the barrel from the side. Take a series of pictures looking up the long axis of the barrel at 90 degrees to the direction of the light source from breech or from the muzzle, or both, using no flash, but do use the exposure compensation starting at -2 and shoot a shot at each increment to +2. Maybe see what you get. Maybe use your dusting approach in concert with the lighting scheme I suggest, along with advances in exp comp. What we are trying for is a shadow effect, however small it might be.

Your point about rib damage, etc is well-taken. Single barrel tests are planned, the point being that if OSR can be caused in them, no further testing might be required, since damage has occured. It may be that with current production bullets, no OSR will occur with the test barrels. This won't prove that it cannot occur, but would demonstrate that with the barrel type and specs, and the bullet type and load, it hasn't occured. I have a huch how we might generate a good dose of OSR, but I won't let that out yet... We'll see.

It may be that lead core bullets are here to stay. I hope so. But maybe not. As Wright says in his book, monos are probably going to increase, not decrease in popularity, so it behooves the shooting community to plan ahead. He also encouraged experimentation along these lines, and his encouragement is my motivation to instigate that experimentation.

Thanks for your post.

--------------------
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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145089 - 03/11/09 03:18 PM


Well said 9.3, but there is no mystery to most long time double rifle owners. We have also found the remedy as well. If the no-lead law becomes the law of the land, then we will simply use North Fork, and Gs Custom bullets, which are properly made, in both material, and design, and go hunting! This phenomenon IMO is only a problem with double rifles, and the fix was found years ago, either do not use Mono-metal bullets, or use the ones that are properly made. If all the double rifle owners are made aware of this, the rest of the mono bullet makers will make them right or loose the market to those who do! Right now that is North Fork, and GS Custom!

I will be interested in the outcome of your tests however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145107 - 03/11/09 11:55 PM

Dugaboy1: Would you be willing to recommend the North Forks and GS Custom bullets for all nitro doubles?

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145127 - 04/11/09 04:39 AM

9.3-


Quote:

recommend the North Forks and GS Custom bullets for all nitro doubles?




One very nice feature of both of these bullet makers is that they will supply (at a price) bullets sized specifically for individual rifles - and they know the issues surrounding OSR well enough to make this offer




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145133 - 04/11/09 08:08 AM

Quote:

Dugaboy1: Would you be willing to recommend the North Forks and GS Custom bullets for all nitro doubles?



Yes I will reccomend them as long as the double rifle owner does his part by slugging his barrels and measureing them very carefully, and orders the proper bullet for his rifle. I also recomend against any other Mono-metal bullet I'm aware of for use in "ANY" double new or old, and Cheap or expensive! Those conditions also go for any bullet regardless of make, but those are the only two Hard mono-metal bullets I'd even consider useing in any of my double rifles, or reccomending to others.
........................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145135 - 04/11/09 08:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dugaboy1: Would you be willing to recommend the North Forks and GS Custom bullets for all nitro doubles?



Yes I will reccomend them as long as the double rifle owner does his part by slugging his barrels and measureing them very carefully, and orders the proper bullet for his rifle. I also recomend against any other Mono-metal bullet I'm aware of for use in "ANY" double new or old, and Cheap or expensive! Those conditions also go for any bullet regardless of make, but those are the only two Hard mono-metal bullets I'd even consider useing in any of my double rifles, or reccomending to others.
........................




What real evidence do you have to support your belief that GS and Northfork monos are totally safe to use in double rifles?

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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #145144 - 04/11/09 12:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dugaboy1: Would you be willing to recommend the North Forks and GS Custom bullets for all nitro doubles?



Yes I will reccomend them as long as the double rifle owner does his part by slugging his barrels and measureing them very carefully, and orders the proper bullet for his rifle. I also recomend against any other Mono-metal bullet I'm aware of for use in "ANY" double new or old, and Cheap or expensive! Those conditions also go for any bullet regardless of make, but those are the only two Hard mono-metal bullets I'd even consider useing in any of my double rifles, or reccomending to others.
........................




What real evidence do you have to support your belief that GS and Northfork monos are totally safe to use in double rifles?



Measurements, Material and design! Nothing else is needed!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145150 - 04/11/09 03:38 PM

Quote:

Measurements, Material and design! Nothing else is needed!




You haven't provided any "real evidence" there, just theory.

For example, with double rifles, bore and groove "measurements" will or should always be taken into account and addressed, regardless of what bullet type is being used, not just with mono's. It is a standard proceedure with DR reloading.

"Material", where has it been proven that any particular mono bullet alloy is any safer than another, where OSR is concerned?

"Design"?
Well, you must be believing what some bullet manufacturers are telling you regarding the wonders of their particular brand of banded monos, while at the same time refuting the claims made by other mono bullet manufacturers like Barnes.

Your opinion seems to be that banded mono's made by certain companies, which are made from a certain material, and have correct dimensions for the double rifle barrels they are to be shot in, are safe and will not cause OSR or rib joint damage.
Is there any evidence to support this?

Edited by 4seventy (04/11/09 07:57 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145155 - 04/11/09 05:26 PM

Quote:

I have a hunch how we might generate a good dose of OSR, but I won't let that out yet... We'll see.



9.3,
OSR is something which I have been trying to research for a number of years, and I also have a "hunch" on something which I think could contribute to the problem.
Maybe we are on the same or similar wavelength on this hunch and maybe not.
I look forward to reading the results of your testing.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #145173 - 05/11/09 04:42 AM

Quote:

What real evidence do you have to support your belief that GS and Northfork monos are totally safe to use in double rifles?



4seventy:

I differ with Mac here slightly. It's possible he's right, but nobody has established it as fact. I know of rifles that both of those bullets have been fired in that show definite OSR, but they've also been fired with other monos that I know not to be safe. Who knows? Also, I've seen fired examples of both that definitely show that the full caliber shank has been engraved (the "ribs" not deep enough), which means to me that the design is flawed. A perfected design of that type or similar may very well be the "magic bullet", but it hasn't been done yet.

Heretofore, the manufacturers' final R & D "test" phase has been borne by the customers at the customers' risk and expense, and that just isn't acceptable when the manufacturer is making a specific recommendation that the bullet is appropriate for double rifle use, and no testing specific to double rifles has been done. Certainly lab testing needs to be done in turned down sacrificial barrels, but such testing is useless without additional testing in real double rifles that represent a cross section of the nitro rifles in common use today - in other words, both new and old. No manufacturer has ever done this. Until they do, having been their guinea pig once, I recommend against it.

--------------------
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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #145178 - 05/11/09 06:35 AM

400


Quote:

having been a guinea pig...




That takes care of next year's Halloween costume decision!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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400NitroExpress
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #145180 - 05/11/09 06:41 AM

Fixed it.

--------------------
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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #145182 - 05/11/09 08:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Measurements, Material and design! Nothing else is needed!


You haven't provided any "real evidence" there, just theory.




You, sir, have not offered any "REAL EVIDENCE" only your theory that I'm wrong!



Quote:

For example, with double rifles, bore and groove "measurements" will or should always be taken into account and addressed, regardless of what bullet type is being used, not just with mono's. It is a standard proceedure with DR reloading.



The above is true, and there are people every day who shoot double rifles with what ever bullet they have on hand without ever measureing the bore at all. That fact is why I state that my reccomendation come only to those who do their home work in regard to their own rifle, before use any bullet, and more importantly if thinking of using a Mono-metal bullet!




Quote:

"Material", where has it been proven that any particular mono bullet alloy is any safer than another, where OSR is concerned?





Haveing several types and makes in hand made from different metals is one way,which I have, and if you don't have them, which it seems you don't, "YOU" can't make a judgement either way!


Quote:

"DESIGN"?
Well, you must be believing what some bullet manufacturers are telling you regarding the wonders of their particular brand of banded monos, while at the same time refuting the claims made by other mono bullet manufacturers like Barnes.





I don't believe anything I read from anyone who wants to sell me something till I look for myself. I can see the design for myself!



Quote:

Your opinion seems to be that banded mono's made by certain companies, which are made from a certain material, and have correct dimensions for the double rifle barrels they are to be shot in, are safe and will not cause OSR or rib joint damage.
Is there any evidence to support this?



You are totally correct in the "YOUR" "OPINION" above that the conditions you list are "MY" opinion. However my opinion is backed by my own in had comparison that bears that opinion out!

As far as certain companies products, as I have said on many occasions, I will only reccomend those that I have personally used, and/or examined in my own hands, for hardness, measurement, and design. In that light the only ones I have found to be safe in a double rifle of proper dimentions, and the two I have listed repeatedly, are the North Fork, and the GS CUSTOM.

NOW! Where is the proof you are offering to say I'm wrong? OH!!!! Thats right, YOU don't have any!

.....................................Good shooting 4seventy!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145183 - 05/11/09 09:01 AM

Quote:

NOW! Where is the proof you are offering to say I'm wrong? OH!!!! Thats right, YOU don't have any!



Mac,
You should read my posts again.
I have not said anywhere that you are "wrong".



Edited by 4seventy (05/11/09 09:54 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #145184 - 05/11/09 09:32 AM

Do guns that exhibit OSR demonstrate measureable dimensional changes to any part of the gun? {OD or ID bore/groove measurements, action damage, etc}? If I understand the problem correctly, there are some or many guns that show OSR that do not also show rib damage or other damage.

The earlier post describing the barrels taken off face I'm assuming to be a exception since I would think that condition would be a result of excess pressure, and as I understand it, OSR itself is not a result of excess pressure per se, though it sounds like at least in that situation, a gun that demonstrated damage caused by excess pressure for some reason also exhibited OSR.

Anyway, are there guns that exhibit OSR that do not show any {or much} internal dimensional change to bore/grooves?

Thanks.

--------------------
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400NitroExpress
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #145185 - 05/11/09 09:48 AM

Mac:

I think you may have merely misread what 4seventy said. He didn't say that the theory BEHIND those bullets was wrong, only that it has yet to be proven. While the theory may indeed have merit (I don't disagree that it does), it's a fact that it hasn't been proven yet. No one has yet bellied up to the bar and spent the many tens of thousands of dollars that legitimate testing would require.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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450_366
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #145186 - 05/11/09 09:59 AM

I wonder if the lenght of the bullet could matter, that is if the barrels are "bent" above the built it convergence, not on the osr matter but in the rib coming apart thing.

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Andreas

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145204 - 05/11/09 01:43 PM

Quote:

Do guns that exhibit OSR demonstrate measureable dimensional changes to any part of the gun? {OD or ID bore/groove measurements, action damage, etc}? If I understand the problem correctly, there are some or many guns that show OSR that do not also show rib damage or other damage.

The earlier post describing the barrels taken off face I'm assuming to be a exception since I would think that condition would be a result of excess pressure, and as I understand it, OSR itself is not a result of excess pressure per se, though it sounds like at least in that situation, a gun that demonstrated damage caused by excess pressure for some reason also exhibited OSR.

Anyway, are there guns that exhibit OSR that do not show any {or much} internal dimensional change to bore/grooves?

Thanks.



Anybody know the answer to the above questions?

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145212 - 05/11/09 05:28 PM

Quote:


Anyway, are there guns that exhibit OSR that do not show any {or much} internal dimensional change to bore/groove?




Is this even possible, given the premise that metal has been moved beyond it's elastic limit to spring back?

If the barrel's metal has indeed moved physically past it's eleastic limit, it should be a very simple matter of measuring to find out how much ie: before and after. A 1" micrometer capable of measuring to the ten-thou will easily show change. Actually, most of these mic's are easy to read to the 1/2 ten thou. on the rotating spool (.00005").

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DarylS]
      #145358 - 08/11/09 05:52 AM

I guess it is time to restate the GSC guarantee regarding damage to doubles:

If any double delaminates as a result of the use of the correct caliber GSC drive band bullets for that double, GSC will pay for the repair.

"Delaminate" includes OSR.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #145452 - 09/11/09 05:16 AM

Quote:

I guess it is time to restate the GSC guarantee regarding damage to doubles:

If any double delaminates as a result of the use of the correct caliber GSC drive band bullets for that double, GSC will pay for the repair.

"Delaminate" includes OSR.



NOW gentlemen, here is a maker that steps up! What say ye now?

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #145475 - 09/11/09 02:06 PM

Dugaboy1, sounds good to me.

Can you or anyone provide an answer to my question following?

"Do guns that exhibit OSR demonstrate measureable dimensional changes to any part of the gun? {OD or ID bore/groove measurements, action damage, etc}? If I understand the problem correctly, there are some or many guns that show OSR that do not also show rib damage or other damage.

The earlier post describing the barrels taken off face I'm assuming to be a exception since I would think that condition would be a result of excess pressure, and as I understand it, OSR itself is not a result of excess pressure per se, though it sounds like at least in that situation, a gun that demonstrated damage caused by excess pressure for some reason also exhibited OSR.

Anyway, are there guns that exhibit OSR that do not show any {or much} internal dimensional change to bore/grooves?"

--------------------
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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #146230 - 19/11/09 06:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I guess it is time to restate the GSC guarantee regarding damage to doubles:

If any double delaminates as a result of the use of the correct caliber GSC drive band bullets for that double, GSC will pay for the repair.

"Delaminate" includes OSR.



NOW gentlemen, here is a maker that steps up! What say ye now?



Mac,
It's great to have a bullet maker standing firmly behind his product.
But the reality is that it still doesn't change anything as far as whether any particular monos are safe or unsafe to use in double rifles.
The above is not, or does not appear to be, a guarantee that the bullets are proven beyond doubt to be safe for use in all double rifles.
It is a guarantee to pay for the repair of any double rifle which suffers delamination or OSR damage as a result of using these bullets.
There is quite a big difference.

Gerard, please understand that I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with your bullets.
They appear to be very well designed and manufactured, and I would have no doubt that they perform very well on game.
It is obvious that you produce a very high quality product.
It is a fact however, that the OSR issue is one which has not yet been fully understood or explained by anyone at this point in time, and this is the reason that some of us are still wary regarding the use of monos of any brand or type, in double rifles, and especially in the older higher value English and European guns.
Hopefully in the not too distant future we can learn more about what actually causes the OSR problems, and then know what is totally safe to shoot in DR's and what is not.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #146231 - 19/11/09 07:05 PM

Has anyone a link to pictures or measurements of verified OSR damage?

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: ChrisPer]
      #146252 - 20/11/09 12:35 AM

Quote:

Has anyone a link to pictures or measurements of verified OSR damage?



Have asked. Never seen such posted on this site.

4seventy; I had a long and very interesting phone coversation with Graeme Wright about OSR and hard bullets last Sunday. PM me for the details if interested.

--------------------
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #146274 - 20/11/09 05:03 AM

Quote:

Orignally posted by 4seventy:
It's great to have a bullet maker standing firmly behind his product.
But the reality is that it still doesn't change anything as far as whether any particular monos are safe or unsafe to use in double rifles.
The above is not, or does not appear to be, a guarantee that the bullets are proven beyond doubt to be safe for use in all double rifles.
It is a guarantee to pay for the repair of any double rifle which suffers delamination or OSR damage as a result of using these bullets.
There is quite a big difference.



Amen, 4seventy. There is a HUGE difference.

Sorry we disagree Mac, but "Don't worry, you have our 'guarantee'" doesn't get the cart out from in front of the horse here. Such "guarantees" don't prove theory, and are just part of the sales pitch. GSC is no different from any other mono-maker. They ALL insist that their bullets can't damage a double rifle as long as the "correct caliber" bullet is used. If your rifle suffers damage, you're stuck with litigating and attempting to collect a $20,000+ claim from some guy in South Africa. That's supposed to be of some kind of value? It addresses the validity of the manufacturer's design theory in what way?

sentence deleted Damage to double rifles from monolithic bullets has been known since shortly after the type appeared, yet none of these manufacturers have done extensive testing of their bullets in real double rifles. Yes, such testing would get quite expensive, but that fact relieves the manufacturers from their responsibility to due diligence how? If they aren't willing to prove the theories of their designs through meaningful testing in the rifles they're intended for and "guaranteed" to be safe in on the front end - to do their due diligence - because it's too expensive, then how is it possible to credit their "guarantee" with any good faith on the back end? Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

--------------------
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Edited by NitroX (26/02/10 04:47 PM)

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #146350 - 22/11/09 03:41 AM

How has any manufacturer of steel jacketed or copper jacketed lead core bullets tested and proved the safety of their bullets in doubles?

I have been smithing for three decades and I have seen my share of delaminated doubles that never saw a single mono down the barrel.

GSC has been making drive band solids for ten years now. We are still waiting for the first report of damage caused by one of our drive band bullets.

However, you are right. We feel perfectly confident that our guarantee will never be invoked but saying that there is no good faith behind our guarantee is an insult to GSC and one I do not take lightly.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #146351 - 22/11/09 04:33 AM

Gerard - Yes - been done already as well as such 'tests' are in th works at this time.

--------------------
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DarylS]
      #146357 - 22/11/09 08:10 AM

Gerard, interesting you bring up the issue of steel jacket solids.

I spoke to Graeme Wright about this whole issue last Sunday. He does not limit possible problematic bullets to monos. He uses the term "hard" bullets when discussing bullets that may cause damage to doubles. He told me he has only seen 3 cases of OSR, and one was a W/R .404 bolt gun that was likely damaged by Woodleigh Solids. Three guns in the thousands he has inspected.

Gerard, you are right.

400nitroexpress demands that mono bullet makers "prove" that their bullets are safe. Fair enough. Let the steel jacket solid makers do so as well. Wright believes Woodleigh solids are as likely to cause damage as banded monos and believes that under certain circumstances both have. Now, if 400 is going to tell us that steel jacket solids are safe because he hasn't personally seen a case of damage caused by them, then those who have had good experience with monos should be allowed the right to say the same. 400nitroexpress can argue with Graeme Wright if he likes but I won't. I take Wright at his word and his experience is immense and his knowledge of the subject vast.

And what about Hornady steel jacket solids? I know they are as difficult {basically, impossible} to resize in my reduction dies as are monos where the mono shaft touches the die. Does that make them as "dangerous" to fire in a double rifle as a mono? I don't know.

Maybe Hornady and Woodleigh should follow 400nitroexpress's demand to buy 10 representative doubles and fire a thousand rounds thru each before selling the bullets since they both appear to make hard bullets.

Can monos and other hard solids damage doubles? I bet they can. Especially when the shooter runs them thru a tight bore he failed to slug before he shot them or runs them thru a gun that has been restruck over and over again and is essentially a hand-grenade waiting to pop or he shoots them in a gun that possesses some other quirk of decrepitude or bad engineering that might result in a wrecked gun or in a new or good condition gun with a combination of design features that are incompatible with hard bullets.

Here is a list of guidelines Wright and I discussed that might make for safe "hard"-bullet shooting. Can't guarantee safety, but these seem pretty sound. He must think so because he shoots monos in his .500 and .500/.450 doubles. He's killed buffalo with them, using the Woodleigh Hydrostatic. Fascinating bullet in its own "right".

Anyway, here's some ideas. "Hard" bullets should:

1} be banded
2} be undersize
3} never be shot in BP guns
4} never be shot in "non-cut" rifling types like W/R or Metford-type rifling
5} possess a shank that does not touch the bore
6} be softer than the barrel
7} be shot in guns with narrow lands and wide grooves

And in a recent conversation with Dave Scovill of WOLFE Publishing, this suggestion was made by him as well; shaft and band grooves from .004 to .010 less than bore diameter of the gun in which the bullet is fired.

Graeme Wright told me he considers Geoff MacDonald and Randy Brooks to be both honest fellows and the producers of good products. I would concur. How a guy uses their products after he buys them is up to the guy. Certainly the dimensions of the bullets are slapped on the boxes and can be easily miked anyhow.

I don't know Gerard's bullets too well, but have read very good reports about them and have never read of a single complaint against them. I'd like to try some, some time. They look like very good bullets and they have a great reputation.

In Wright's book he notes a double he had that possessed barrels that were .015 different in groove depth. If two such barrels were made by a modern boltgun maker, one or both of them would be scrapped. Old doubles are known to be all over the map regarding bore dimensions. So it goes, just because it is a "Best Gun" doesn't mean it IS, as it were, at least as it applies to hard bullets.

Caveat emptor.

Applies to double gun buyers and shooters, too.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (22/11/09 05:53 PM)

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #152712 - 03/02/10 04:09 PM

Quote:


Haveing several types and makes in hand made from different metals is one way,which I have, and if you don't have them, which it seems you don't, "YOU" can't make a judgement either way!
...........................................................

I don't believe anything I read from anyone who wants to sell me something till I look for myself. I can see the design for myself!
...........................................................

You are totally correct in the "YOUR" "OPINION" above that the conditions you list are "MY" opinion. However my opinion is backed by my own in had comparison that bears that opinion out!

As far as certain companies products, as I have said on many occasions, I will only reccomend those that I have personally used, and/or examined in my own hands, for hardness, measurement, and design. In that light the only ones I have found to be safe in a double rifle of proper dimentions, and the two I have listed repeatedly, are the North Fork, and the GS CUSTOM.

NOW! Where is the proof you are offering to say I'm wrong? OH!!!! Thats right, YOU don't have any!





dugaboy,
In your quotes above you say that you have had both GSC and North Fork bullets "in hand" and have "personally used and/or examined them".

Fair enough, but very recently on another forum you have confused the issue somewhat by saying......

Quote:

Gerard,I have never used a GSC bullet in anything! That is not because I think they are somhow enferior to any other bullet of similer design, but that I simply have never even had one in my hand.




What's going on?

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #152722 - 03/02/10 06:07 PM

There is a lot of loose talk about OSR and what the cause may be. While researching the topic, as a result of false allegations made by 400NitroExpress, I found this:
Quote:

31 Oct 2009
I've handled 5 guns with OSR so far. 2 1906-1908 era British doubles, 2 1920's British doubles and 1 1920's Belgium double. My only confirmation that monos cause OSR is the owners of 2 of these doubles that I've handled with OSR shot quite a few Barnes bullets through them. My doubles, 6 of them, that didn't have OSR when I got them and have been shot exclusively with Woodleighs, Hornady lead core and Hawk bullets still exhibit no OSR.

1. Five doubles exhibited OSR.
2. Two were fired with copper monos and jacketed lead core bullets.
3. Three were fired with jacketed lead core bullets.

How does this point to copper monos as the probable cause? The logic escapes me. According to this evidence, the probable cause must be jacketed lead bullets.

Then I see the following from the same person:
Quote:

28 Jan 2010:
The doubles I have seen with OSR (4-5), including one of my own, begin to exhibit the OSR about 8-10 inches down the barrels and the OSR continues to the muzzle.

Now I am confused.
1. In October last year he had seen altogether 5 doubles with OSR.
2. None of his own doubles had OSR.
3. In January past he had seen altogether 5 doubles with OSR including one of his own.
4. He has used jacketed lead core bullets exclusively.
5. Has one of his doubles now developed OSR as a result of that? The 3 to 2 evidence of the first example seems to point to it.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #152741 - 03/02/10 11:14 PM

Gerard,
I have gone back and found the posts you refer to and I think you may just be misreading what the poster is saying.

You are assuming he only owns 6 doubles.
I think he was saying that those 6 never had OSR when he bought them and still don't, and that he has owned another double or doubles which did show evidence of OSR.
I don't see any contradictions there.

I'm pretty sure the poster would be able to clear this up pretty fast.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #152911 - 05/02/10 03:53 PM

4seventy,
No doubt a plausible explanation will be given. It is just that, as it stands, it clearly reads that 470evans owns 6 doubles.

"My doubles, 6 of them, that didn't have OSR......."

If I had more than 6 doubles, I would have said: "6 Of my doubles that do not have OSR" or "Of my doubles, 6 do not have OSR" or "I have 6 doubles without OSR and one that has OSR."

However, the statements, as they stand, do not point to monos being the probable cause of OSR in the doubles he has seen - whether he owns any or not.

In discussing technical matters of this much importance, spelling is not an issue but content is.

The lack of a response from 400NitroExpress is disappointing. I would have thought that someone would be in contact with him if he did not see my request himself. I am beginning to think that a response will remain lacking. Clearly he does not know as much about bullet technology as he knows about lumps and bites and an oversight or incorrect statement can explained. For him to state categorically that GSC bullets has resulted in damage to doubles is slanderous and, if he was mistaken, that must be corrected.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #152941 - 06/02/10 01:07 AM

A joke was posted here, but seeing the rest of the crap has been deleted, this can go as well.

Edited by NitroX (26/02/10 04:50 PM)

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: Gerard]
      #152982 - 06/02/10 12:05 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: CptCurl]
      #152993 - 06/02/10 05:12 PM

Curl

I'm glad I'm not the only one sees the humour in some of these people.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: CptCurl]
      #153001 - 06/02/10 07:47 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: rigbymauser]
      #153008 - 07/02/10 12:28 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (07/02/10 12:52 AM)

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153016 - 07/02/10 02:03 AM

I would have thought that this forum is a cut above and would be interested in promoting fact and accuracy. Given the response from CptCurl, an attorney and supposedly a thinking man, I am surprised. Mickey I can understand. A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit and anonymous behind a Gmail account. Anonimity brings out the worst in people. Rigbymauser? Who knows, there is nothing there.

Am I serious about 400NitroExpress' fabrication and unfounded statements. You bet I am.

Would it pass as Forging and Uttering? Or is it rather slander or libel? I am not legally trained. Maybe CptCurl is and he could tell how serious I am.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153019 - 07/02/10 02:51 AM

Jeez 9.3x57 and Gerard, cool off! It's just a laugh. When you lose your capacity for humor you need to back up and think a bit. That's how serious I am. It takes no training.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: CptCurl]
      #153024 - 07/02/10 03:34 AM

Priceless Curl!

If were all really lucky, perhaps this will give 9.3 and Gerard just the opportunity to have another 642,973 pages about OSR and how it doesn't exist. Yipeeee!

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: CptCurl]
      #153026 - 07/02/10 03:45 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153030 - 07/02/10 04:40 AM

Generally I'm not inclined to answer an accusation of this nature, but I'll make an exception.

Quote:

You know better than to slough it off as a good-hearted joke when you can tell that this issue is very serious to the man. It's a joke to you because it is your hobby. It is not a joke to Gerard because it is his business.

I asked you what you meant by the joke because I personally didn't really get it. Your flippant remark above makes it clear now. Your statement and joke for that matter are no big deal but they are below you.





My Joke is not below me. It was an attempt at making humor from some of the more unseemly encounters we have recently experienced here on the forums. In my opinion the members involved in these encounters have lost sight of the fundamental purpose of these forums.

Mintyman has an axe to grind, and it takes a bit of imagination for me to think that NitroExpress.com is the place to grind it. Ok it involves some prominent characters in the gun business. But it certainly doesn't involve collegial discussion of guns or hunting - the core of these forums.

Gerard is here to sell bullets. He thinks his product has been insulted, so like some kind of gunslinger (thus a nexus to guns) he appears here and on AR to call 400NitroExpress into the street for a showdown. He makes it such a matter of honor it's reminiscent of the deep South when such matters were settled with pistols at ten paces. About all he has done is to draw attention to his product, the use of which still remains a question mark.

And besides, 400NitroExpress is an honorable man. He doesn't deserve the abuse. I happen to know he's a certified public accountant. At this time of the year he's so busy I doubt he even keys up NE.com, so he's not hiding like Gerard gleefully claims. Gerard should pack up his grudge and go elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is the only actor who isn't using NE.com for his own selfish purpose is Geoff Miller. To my knowledge he hasn't posted here.

So yeah, I was trying to inject a bit of humor into a couple of ugly discussions. I'll plead guilty. If there are a few stuffed shirts on the forums who can't tolerate my humor, or if there are some who can't understand it, I'm just not overly concerned.

Humor is not beneath me.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: CptCurl]
      #153032 - 07/02/10 04:56 AM

Haven't we been having a lot of weather lately!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: CptCurl]
      #153033 - 07/02/10 04:56 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: CptCurl]
      #153034 - 07/02/10 05:00 AM

Well,

I read several of the posts and came to my own conclusions regarding OSR. I will not share them here as I do not think I could tolerate the continuation of a discussion which has been beaten to death many times over.

I will tell you that I did interpret what CptCurl posted as humor. If you do not have a sense of humor, you probably missed it.

I would recommend (not demand) that those who post here take a look at the discussion of OSR in Graeme Wright's book. He approaches this topic from a non-emotional perspective. After reading his thoughts, take a few moments to consider it and make up your mind on this subject.

I do not mind if others disagree. I do mind that some cannot be satisfied until everyone else shares their perspective. It is an unattainable goal if we have independent thinkers on this board. At some point we should agree to disagree and call it a day. For those of you who must continue on and stir the pot, I wish you the best.

Cheers,

577500WR

--------------------
Most folks nowadays think talking about guns is a perversity. I view the old guns as being a record of the industrial revolution transforming the ordinary into high art and functionality.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153036 - 07/02/10 05:20 AM

Quote:

About all he has done is to draw attention to his product, the use of which still remains a question mark.

That is precisely why I am here. The question mark exists because of what 400NitroExpress has posted and for which he has no proof. In fact, I have good cause to believe he has made false statements.

And yes, this is a serious matter to me. As serious as it would be if someone falsely accused you or 400 of dipping into your trust accounts. You would know that it is not true, as I know it is not true what 400 stated as fact about GSC product.

I am in this business because I have a passion for shooting, hunting and all types of firearms. I am twice blessed because I can indulge my passion and make a living from it. At GSC quality is absolute. I have been building custom rifles since '79. For the last 17 years since '93, I have lived and breathed striving to solve every problem I could find around bullet design. Why? Because I have seen priceless works of art destroyed in a variety of ways, amongst them badly designed bullets. I have seen animals suffer for days because of bad bullet design and I made a pledge that this will stop.

I will not have this tarnished by lies.

Your Southern Gunslinger remarks paint a picture that stereotypes unnecessarily. I am normally of good humour but you are out of line with your remarks.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153037 - 07/02/10 05:28 AM

Quote:

this will give 9.3 and Gerard just the opportunity to have another 642,973 pages about OSR and how it doesn't exist.


generalwar,
Another conveniently anonymous entity. What gives you the idea that I hold the view that OSR does not exist? I make this point because if it remains unmentioned, it becomes fact. You remark is devoid of fact.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153039 - 07/02/10 05:55 AM

Gerard

Anonymous behind a GMail account? Is this your attempt at humour? I can assure you I answer all my emails, as many here can attest. I do remember a time when you refused to answer your emails though.

An average of 5 posts a year, all involving promoting your product, and you can call out anyone on this Forum? If you want to be taken seriously here you should participate in more than discussions about your business. You undoubtedly have a vast amount of experience and input that would be of interest to the members of this Forum.

I have no axe to grind with you or your bullets. I hear they are excellent but have never used them as I am not into changing what works for me for experimentation purposes. You need to lighten up and see Curl's comments for what they are.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: Gerard]
      #153040 - 07/02/10 05:56 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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9.3x57
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: ]
      #153049 - 07/02/10 07:53 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153057 - 07/02/10 09:43 AM

May I remind everyone that NE has long been a shooting/hunting forum, perhaps the only one, where people have behaved gentlemanly despite their disagreements.

Let's keep it that way.

May I also remind some of the members posting on this thread that we all have a life outside the forums. This can obviously result in some members not being able to log on for extended periods of time, due to work or travel. So if your questions to a specific person are not answered within a few days, or even a few weeks, it does not necessarily mean that your questions are being ignored.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: EricD]
      #153059 - 07/02/10 10:03 AM

Gerard, Barnes and all others who still think OSR is a myth, I'll stick with Mr Wright and my offer stands, my .500 H&H will be finished next March'ish. If you escrow the US$ or GBŁ necessary to replace it in Hollands escrow account, Take it away and put a minimum of 750 of your monos through it (they have put more than 1000 normal rounds through their .500 "round action" working rifle and it is "tight as a drum" ..see T.Weiland "Dangerous Rifles" second edition). If the rifle is fine, all ribs,rifling etc OK then you have an advert ! If it ain't you pay for a new rifle for me, and if it fails within another 500 rounds with ribs or OSR you pay too..... there's the offer, I still don't see why Woodleighs or other good stuff is not good enough ? best, Mike...p.s if you come out right I get 500 rounds of your ammo free for "your advert", worth a few quid I reckon

pps you pay for refinishing if it is knocked about (BY HOLLANDS)

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #153062 - 07/02/10 10:26 AM

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #153065 - 07/02/10 11:47 AM

I'd like a cut too, just because.

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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #153075 - 07/02/10 04:02 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #153078 - 07/02/10 06:11 PM

Mike Bailey,
Quote:


Gerard, Barnes and all others who still think OSR is a myth

To you and all others who fail to read and comprehend: Why do you lump me in with "all others who still think OSR is a myth"? When and where did I say or imply that OSR does not exist? Show me the quote.

This illustrates my problem. You take the attitude that it is you double owners against us, the manufacturers. You assume my only motive is selling more bullets and making more money. You assume that I crave an endorsement from H&H and want to advertise GSC product.

You could not be further from the truth. I am an R&D man and I am on your side, if you will let me be there. My concern is as stated earlier in this thread (#153036 - 06/02/10), did you even read it? I leave the marketing to the bean counters and the admin executives and, you know what? There are none of those in GSC. We are a family business and our entire enterprise consists of 7 people. We could care less about endorsements and adverts. Our first and only concern is product performance - that is why we exist.

As for your suggestion to use a new H&H double for "testing", here is the answer I gave to the same inane thought that was put up on AR.
--------------------
"Been there and done that in 1996. I did not use new doubles though, they were well used but in excellent condition. In the 13 years since then, that we have been supplying drive band bullets to double rifle owners, they have fired many, many times more than 200 shots with them. Old guns, new guns and in calibers ranging from 7mm through to 600NE. Not a single double has been reported to us that has delaminated or suffered OSR. What would 200 rounds through a new double prove? The major concern, as I see it, is damage to old and irreplacable guns and not with new guns.

That is why I take issue with the false statements made by 400 Nitro Express."
--------------------
This also why I said that I fail to see why these demands for testing are made towards mono manufacturers. I am a gunsmith (retired now) and I have seen my share of delaminated doubles. I have read reports of delamination and OSR and guess what? Guns have been delaminating and suffereing OSR long before monos were in general use. Why are there not the same demands that cup and core bullet manufacturers spend a small fortune buying doubles and testing them?

ErikD,
Quote:

May I remind everyone that NE has long been a shooting/hunting forum, perhaps the only one, where people have behaved gentlemanly despite their disagreements.

From where I stand at the moment, that is not so. I have found the same attitudes here as I have found on AR. I have to state the same facts repeatedly, get the same inane suggestions, see the same "you only want to make money" attitude and the same general lack of attention to detail that will go a long way towards solving a problem.

Here is the thread on AR, judge for yourself:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/9821076521

I am here to pass on what I have learned, listen to problems that may exist (not only with GSC product, how else will I know to avoid pitfalls?) and to be of help.

Pull up all my posts, there are less than 40, read them and then tell me if this is valid criticism:
Quote:

An average of 5 posts a year, all involving promoting your product,



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Mike_Bailey
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153084 - 07/02/10 08:40 PM

It was just some of your quotes about 400 NE that annoyed me, why don't we stick with "politeness", best, Mike

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450_366
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #153086 - 07/02/10 09:34 PM

This will go on and on, wouldt it.

And still no one will attempt to point a finger to what causes OSR, some say its monos, some its monos without driving bands, some say ist solids, some overpressure due to missfitting bullets and so on.

But no one has in anyway been able to point a finger to a specific bullet or manufactor.

I have seen rifle barrels split from in front of the chamber to the mussle on conventional softnose bullets, not DR barrels, bolt rifle barrels.

Let Gerard get his answers, and if he gets upset waiting, let him. If you dont like it, just stop commenting it and the problem is solved untill hes gott them, no matter who is right or wrong.

ps, sorry it wasnt ment to you mike, i just hit reply.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (07/02/10 09:37 PM)

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peter
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 450_366]
      #153102 - 08/02/10 03:35 AM

gerard

i made my order in may 09, saying that i would love to buy some bullets from you for testing in a few of my older rifles, it were a purly personal idea that i wanted to see if your statments were solid.
We are now in feb. 2010, i have still not seen any bullets from you, although i wanted to BUY them from you, this could give me the idea, that you really dont want them tested by me at least, so please stop rattle your saber about you being wronged and you guy's are pure as snow, when you dont even put forward an effort to get independent testing on double rifles, i have a few doubles that i volentered for this test, but no bullets yet.

9 months in waiting, and you call out 400NE about a few weeks waiting period.

please tell me, where i made my mistake, i actually tried to make this test private untill the results were done, but this is never going to happen is it ?

peter

Edited by peter (08/02/10 03:38 AM)

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: peter]
      #153110 - 08/02/10 05:05 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: peter]
      #153111 - 08/02/10 05:08 AM

Hi Peter,
I recall that you mentioned this before on a forum, I think. If you placed an order in May 09 and it has not pitched up, there is obviously something wrong.

Please email us on elmarie@wol.co.za with your name and surname (required) and an invoice number (not essential), so that Elmarie (taken over Gina's tasks) can chase it down for you. We have been a little disorganised since mid December, getting details sorted for Gina to move to the USA, but an undelivered May 09 order is seriously out of line.

Please direct any queries on admin matters to elmarie@wol.co.za or to gscustom@wol.co.za

It is best not to contact me on PM at forums, I forget to action matters or sometimes don't notice the PM icon.
Tech matters come to me at gerard@wol.co.za and in this I am seriously behind so check our FAQ, Tech Data or Load Data first please.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #153112 - 08/02/10 05:15 AM

tinker,
You posted while I was writing a reply to Peter but here is what you were waiting for. I had similar requests on another forum and it is my aim to resolve matters as satisfactorily as possible.

To you, and anyone who may want to get on to the bandwagon, below are your replacement double rifles. If you need more than one, simply follow this procedure as many times as may be required by your individual need. Note that this download requires no serial number either.

1. Right click on the picture below.
2. From the drop down menu select "Save image as".
3. Name the picture in the caliber of your choice.
4. Save it to your PC in a folder that is easily accessible so that you can look at it frequently.

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153113 - 08/02/10 05:27 AM

Gerard-


Thanks for the offer - but I'm not solely looking for action from you -- this is a global plea and I expect a global response.


I'm going to need a much more substantial solution than a simple image file.
I will accomodate scheduling for a fitting at my residence, and I can work within a two-year build time constraint.
This will need to be a cased in hardwood, complete with tooling and loading equipment, best-grade, full-kit double rifle, ready for the included fully-guided and supported DG hunt on the continent of my choice, on the game of my choice -- handling/tanning/mounting of my trophies included as well of course.



We're talking reparations here Gerard.
If you wish you can spearhead the cooperation of collection and accounting on this effort.
For your trouble you may take a 5% cut aside (collected on your own, of course) the commission and delivery scheduling costs.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: tinker]
      #153114 - 08/02/10 05:36 AM

tinker,
I appreciate the confidence you place in me by nominating me to co-ordinate a global response for you. Regrettably I never passed my Master of the Universe course and thus I am not qualified. I must decline and stand with the small contribution above.

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mickey
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153118 - 08/02/10 05:59 AM

Quote:

tinker,
You posted while I was writing a reply to Peter but here is what you were waiting for. I had similar requests on another forum and it is my aim to resolve matters as satisfactorily as possible.

To you, and anyone who may want to get on to the bandwagon, below are your replacement double rifles. If you need more than one, simply follow this procedure as many times as may be required by your individual need. Note that this download requires no serial number either.

1. Right click on the picture below.
2. From the drop down menu select "Save image as".
3. Name the picture in the caliber of your choice.
4. Save it to your PC in a folder that is easily accessible so that you can look at it frequently.





I ordered 4. Evidently .22-250 is not an option so I had to settle for a .22 Hornet in my Varmit rifle.

Thank you.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DarylS
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: mickey]
      #153133 - 08/02/10 11:13 AM

Tinker, here's a couple doubles from me. Right-click, etc, etc.







--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #153142 - 08/02/10 04:02 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153539 - 13/02/10 01:29 PM

Quote:

OK, so now I take it that Gerard is persona non grata on the Nitro Express Forum because he's asked for substantiation to accusations and suggestions that his bullets have been the cause of OSR in doubles?

...

I do apologize if I'm missing a good-hearted joke.



I think you definitely were missing the joke entirely.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #153540 - 13/02/10 01:32 PM

Quote:

OK, let me get this straight...

original quotation deleted




But you're here for them anyway ... indirectly ...

Edited by NitroX (26/02/10 04:58 PM)

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eagle27
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: NitroX]
      #153558 - 13/02/10 05:02 PM

I don't have a double rifle but have followed this thread and its predecessor with interest from a pure mechanical point of view. This might seem a dumb question and I might have missed something along the line but with any barrel exhibiting the OSR pattern, is there any measurable change in dimension of the barrel across the outside rifling pattern?

If not then how about a theory that the pattern may only be just that, not a mechanical change but a pattern on the bluing of the barrel perhaps caused through 'localised' heat coming through and mirroring the lands. Yes the next question is that heat comes through from any bullet but just maybe the composition of the mono metal bullets does not channel heat away from their surface as efficiently as lead core bullets may.

A test on a OSR barrel would be to polish completely and re-blue and see if pattern was still there, although this would still not discount a slight change to the metal structure through heat where even a re-blue will still replicate the rifling pattern.

I suppose what I'm saying is a little bit like those that see UFOs in the sky. The very word implies they saw a physical object where until proven, they have only seen a light.

Just my thoughts and not discounting anything posted previously.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #153569 - 13/02/10 07:27 PM

eagle27,
If OSR is not measurable and only visible due to a change in color, it would also mean that OSR is a storm in a teacup and of no consequence to the performance of the rifle. It would fall into the same category as normal wear on the finish or mechanism. But we do not know because no one seems able to measure OSR and it has only been seen. We are lacking much fact about OSR.

Note:
Quote:

Yes the next question is that heat comes through from any bullet but just maybe the composition of the mono metal bullets does not channel heat away from their surface as efficiently as lead core bullets may.



Of all the materials used in bullet manufacturing, lead is the worst conductor of heat. Brass/bronze is about three times better and pure copper is the best at about 10 times that of lead. Lead core bullets would therefore be worst at channeling heat away from the barrel wall and copper the best. There is a simple experiment to verify this fact. Measure the temperature of the chamber area of any rifle. Fire five shots at 1 minute intervals and measure the temperature 1 minute after the last shot was fired. Start with a completely cooled rifle and use different bullet types.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-metals-d_858.html

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eagle27
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153575 - 13/02/10 09:05 PM

Gerard
Point taken about channeling heat away. Perhaps if we go the other way round where the monos may actually absorb more heat from the combustion and then pass this through the barrel wall via the point of contact, the lands. I know it's a long shot but if this OSR has not been dimensionally measured or even able to be 'felt' then, as you say, it may be of no consequence to the operation of the rifle and may only be a visual distraction to the finish of the barrels.

There seems to be various theories put forward as to how the rifling engraving could be pushed out and show as a surface disruption on the outside of the barrel, if it is indeed a physical disruption as such. I would be interested to know if anyone who has seen this phenomenon has actually measured it or if it is able to be 'felt'by touch. Some have placed great store on how the human eye can see imperfections that are difficult to photograph, but we should acknowledge that the human touch is also very sensitive and can pick up imperfections in the surface of objects. Has anyone done this with OSR? Again if not then maybe that's all we are looking at - a visual imperfection in the surface colour and nothing else?

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JabaliHunter
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #153581 - 13/02/10 10:34 PM

If OSR is visible, then it is measurable. You would just need equipment with the appropriate sensitivity. I'm not an engineer, so have no idea what that equipment might be.
Whether OSR is of mechanical consequence or not, it is of consequence to the owner of the rifle, not least in terms of value. Guarantees are admirable and show the manufacturer's faith in their product, but of zero value on a non-replaceable item - new barrels on an old DR destroy the originality. That's why proof is important. Bullet makers offer no proof OSR is not possible with their bullets, just the same as owners of DRs with OSR are accused of offering no proof because they can't photograph or measure it. Doesn't mean it isn't there or that it is of no consequence though.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #153609 - 14/02/10 04:01 AM

eagle27,
Quote:

monos may actually absorb more heat from the combustion and then pass this through the barrel wall via the point of contact

I considered that after I posted. In fairness, the test I did included only copper drive band monos and standard lead core bullets. I did not include any type of brass mono or copper banded bullets. Maybe that would be a good one to do. Consider however that a finite amount of heat is generated by the combustion process and that some heat is generated by friction as the bullet is accelerated down the bore. A bullet with good thermal conductivity must carry more heat away with it than a lead core bullet. The bottom line is that there are too many variables and only testing with a variety of bullet types will tell the story. Otherwise we are guessing. I can only attest to the experiment I conducted.

JabaiHunter,

Quote:

Bullet makers offer no proof OSR is not possible with their bullets, just the same as owners of DRs with OSR are accused of offering no proof because they can't photograph or measure it.



This is true. So we have to fall back on history and experience to make the judgement call until something better comes along.

I am not sure that everything that is visible can be dimensionally measured. This will weigh and measure dimensionally exactly the same as This. Similarly, I have seen a single piece of steel develop a red cast in the blued finish, with use, due to the particular hardness and temper at that point. Dimensionally there is no change but visually there is.

I have no doubt that OSR exists and, at this stage, the evidence is inconclusive. We do not know if it is caused by a particular type of bullet or whether it may be a particular type of rifle or manufacturing problem that causes it.

But if we have to make that judgement call, how do we do it at this point?

We know that rifles used only with lead core bullets have OSR. We know that rifles that have seen use with some conventional monos have it. I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years. The other way of preventing OSR in a rifle that does not have it, is to not shoot the rifle at all.

Based on the history of what we know at this point, there are therefore two ways of being reasonably sure that a double will not develop OSR.

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153612 - 14/02/10 04:18 AM

Gerard-


What experience can you bring to the conversation regarding driving band/mono bullets in older BPE rifles and Damascus barrels?

There are thousands of such rifles 'out there' shooting and hunting - it would be good to hear your perspective on unleaded bullet design and older (pre-nitro era) barrel steels.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153613 - 14/02/10 05:15 AM

Quote:

by Gerard - We know that rifles used only with lead core bullets have OSR. We know that rifles that have seen used with some conventional monos have it. I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years. The other way of preventing OSR in a rifle that does not have it, is to not shoot the rifle at all.

Based on the history of what we know at this point, there are therefore two ways of being reasonably sure that a double will not develop OSR.



Pretty good summary Gerard.

The propblem with a forum of shooters and gun owners trying to explain what actually occurs and what causes
OSR, is that none of us has the expertise to make any conclusive statement of fact as to what actually happens. That makes all of what is said on here, pure conjecture and opinion. We can ask the right questions, but no one on here ca - based, mind you on experience and observation, but not actual fact. We can ask the right questions but do we get accurate and the correct answers or merely opinion. Opinion, if stated as fact, can lead to civil litigation - another consideration. in my opinion - of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DarylS]
      #153627 - 14/02/10 07:12 AM

Tinker,
I dread the day that lead can no longer be used. Life will become more complicated and unnecessarily so.

Logically, if a non lead bullet will mimick the barrel wall pressure and the engraving pressure of a lead bullet, or perhaps lower those pressures, all must be well. To this end, a dual diameter drive band copper bullet would be the only way to go. It would require correct design and good knowledge of the rifling profile and dimensions. There is nothing daunting there, it is already being done for odd and obsolete calibers in double and bolt rifles. The criteria would be that the bullet be able to withstand the spin up torque without stripping the drive bands and be of the correct length and shape to perform satisfactorily on impact. The up side is that fouling will be reduced and consistency will improve. The downside will be cost because lead is so much cheaper than copper. Working lead is also cheap compared to precisely turning copper.

Daryl_S,
Forget about money being the root of all evil. I think that opinion that results from thumbsucking is. I have frequently encountered opinions that are based entirely on folklore, hearsay and "everybody knows". The bottom line is that firearms are engineering solutions and require logic and adhere to engineering principles. Magic plays no role in any solution just because it is a firearm.

The difficulty arises when anyone tries to come to a decision based on the facts at hand. We all do this every day and, usually the facts are adequate. Sometimes they are not and then we have traffic accidents, buildings that collapse, stock market calamities and businesses that go belly up. One of the greatest skills is to learn to how to identify the correct advisor in a given field. And then there are the con men.

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tinker
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153632 - 14/02/10 07:52 AM

Gerard-


I also dread the day that lead can no longer be used as rifle projectile.

Still, the rifles I most enjoy owning and running are the very early cartridge rifles from the transitional period (mid-19th century) such as my 20 and 16 bore pinfire double rifles.

Lead and copper are not the only bullet material choices.
I haven't looked at tin as a material - most of the thought I've (most times just idle thoughts in the background noise of my mind...) had have been around bullet design (such as your driving-band bullet design) more than material.

It appears as if the design formula you're following is one that seems to work - and is something that owner/shooters of vintage Nitro doubles have embraced.

The concern I most often hear from the crowd (with regard to pre-nitro rifles with fluid steel and damascus steel barrels) on projectile material is that the copper (often referenced around jacketed bullets) can prematurely wear the barrels out.
Would this be the same issue with tin in a driving-band design?
At bore-rifle bullet sizes, would the tin bullet be tough enough to do the job..?

Things to chew on for those of us who love our old pre-nitro BPE and pre-BPE double rifles...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #153635 - 14/02/10 08:46 AM

Quote:

I know that, since we have seen drive band monos in use in doubles, the combination of drive band bullet and double has not produced a rifle with OSR. That is the last 14 years.



Gerard,
Now, first of all I'm not saying that your or anyone elses bullets have ever produced OSR in a double, but......
Whether OSR exists with a particular rifle can depend on who has examined the rifle.
The question being that would those people be able to see OSR even on a rifle known to have it?
An owner of a fine double is not going to want to see OSR on his pride and joy, and may well be trying not to see any evidence of it, or hoping none exists.
I think that to declare a barrel set of not showing any visible evidence of OSR, the barrels need to be examined by someone who knows what OSR looks like, even very mild cases, and someone who knows exactly how to find it.
IMO this examination should be done by someone not likely to have any bias toward either the rifle or the bullets in question.
I'm not accusing anyone of a cover up, just that I think some people looking for evidence of OSR may not really know precisely what they are trying to see, and in some cases not wanting to see it anyway.

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AkMike
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #153638 - 14/02/10 08:59 AM

Tinker, Another possibility is bismouth alloy for the core or as a casting material. German Silver?

If all else fails, move out of California! There's still some room up here.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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eagle27
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: AkMike]
      #153639 - 14/02/10 09:07 AM

No JabaliHunter that was exactly my point of using the analogy with a UFO sighting, just because OSR is visible it does not follow that it is a measurable phenomenon in the physical sense with some form of caliper, gauge etc. If OSR is not actually a physical displacement of metal but only a change in appearance of the metal finish, caused as in the theory I put forward, by heat, then this is only a visual phenomenon and while ‘measurable’ in the aesthetics and possible degradation of the value of the rifle (a consequence you so rightly pointed out), the OSR would not necessarily affect the performance or safety of the rifle in question.

I am only thinking outside the square, not saying that OSR is, or is not, a physical change with metal being displaced on the barrel. It just seems to me at the moment there is a whole lot of assumptions and accusations being made based on a visual appearance of some double rifle barrels, unless as I said earlier I have missed a post where someone has actually measured a displacement of metal or can actually feel the displacement of metal by running their finger over the surface.

If my theory was proved correct then it is maybe something owners of doubles would have to put up with if wanting to, or having to, use mono bullets.

Of course there is the other issue which has been bought into the argument, and that is the top and bottom ribs and other fixtures coming ‘unstuck’ on the barrels. I don’t think this issue is necessarily new though and have even seen it myself on old shotguns. Again it is easy to make assumptions even here such as proposing the modern loadings of hard lead or steel shot and plastic wads, could be the cause of a greater occurrence of this happening (if indeed there were greater occurrences happening , I don’t know).

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JabaliHunter
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #153647 - 14/02/10 12:08 PM

I disagree, although I take the point about UFOs! For example:
If OSR is a dimensional change, then some kind of micrometrology co-ordinate measuring machine might be able to measure it. This is a computer controlled device that measures the physical geometry of an object using, for example, an optical or standing wave probe. It can measure in microns (1/1000mm). There may be other more sensitive devices.
If OSR is a change in colour or appearance, then that must presumably be caused by either a physical or a chemical change, in which case it could still be measured by, for example, a mass spectrometer, which can be used to analyse the elemental and molecular structure of an object. I'm sure they tried to teach us about those in Chemistry lessons at school!
I'm not suggesting that such measurements are practical however, just theoretically possible.

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eagle27
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #153660 - 14/02/10 03:24 PM

Yep Jabali agree with everything you said but as OSR is supposedly damage to the barrel caused by a dimensional change (so it seems everyone is inferring or saying as a fact) I was really inferring that a colour or appearance change was not measurable dimensionally or as I put it, in the physical sense although as you then quite rightly put it, even colour changes are in some way measurable.

Gets confusing when using all these terms. I guess what frustrates me a bit in this thread and the previous one on the subject is that nobody has said (to my knowledge) that they can run their finger over the barrel surface and 'feel' OSR. Just like the ubiquitous UFO, it's all just visual until someone grabs hold of one and can say for sure they are real objects.

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Gerard
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: eagle27]
      #154528 - 23/02/10 02:48 AM

Tinker,
I have no idea how tin would react to being fired from a barrel but the terminal ballistics would not be good. As a material it is much too brittle. It cannot be drawn and would have to be cast. The melting point is very low, around 230C. Lead is a good 100C higher than that. Current prices per lb are about US$1.00 for lead, US$3.00 for copper and US$7.60 for tin.

4seventy,
Quote:

Whether OSR exists with a particular rifle can depend on who has examined the rifle.

What puzzles me about OSR is that it is more difficult to see than what general wear and tear seems to be. There also seems to be no evidence that any particular type of bullet causes OSR. It has been seen on rifles that have fired some monos and it has been seen on rifles that have not fired monos.

Does anyone know when OSR was seen for the first time?

If it cannot be dimensionally measured then it is a cosmetic affliction, the same as a scratch or dent on the stock or barrel. Use it often enough and it will happen.

If it can be dimensionally measured, is it of a greater magnitude than normal wear of the lands and grooves? That can easily be measured and I often do so to tailor bullets to the bore of odball sized barrels.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: Gerard]
      #154875 - 26/02/10 05:02 PM

I've re-examined this thread and deleted out all the crap.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: peter]
      #154902 - 26/02/10 10:07 PM

Quote:

gerard

i made my order in may 09, saying that i would love to buy some bullets from you for testing in a few of my older rifles, it were a purly personal idea that i wanted to see if your statments were solid.
We are now in feb. 2010, i have still not seen any bullets from you, although i wanted to BUY them from you, this could give me the idea, that you really dont want them tested by me at least, so please stop rattle your saber about you being wronged and you guy's are pure as snow, when you dont even put forward an effort to get independent testing on double rifles, i have a few doubles that i volentered for this test, but no bullets yet.

9 months in waiting, and you call out 400NE about a few weeks waiting period.

please tell me, where i made my mistake, i actually tried to make this test private untill the results were done, but this is never going to happen is it ?

peter



Well Gerard Schulz has "left the building" (and forums) so Peter don't expect an answer to your bullet order being 9 months and waiting ... undelivered ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Anonymous
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: NitroX]
      #154913 - 27/02/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

gerard

i made my order in may 09, saying that i would love to buy some bullets from you for testing in a few of my older rifles, it were a purly personal idea that i wanted to see if your statments were solid.
We are now in feb. 2010, i have still not seen any bullets from you, although i wanted to BUY them from you, this could give me the idea, that you really dont want them tested by me at least, so please stop rattle your saber about you being wronged and you guy's are pure as snow, when you dont even put forward an effort to get independent testing on double rifles, i have a few doubles that i volentered for this test, but no bullets yet.

9 months in waiting, and you call out 400NE about a few weeks waiting period.

please tell me, where i made my mistake, i actually tried to make this test private untill the results were done, but this is never going to happen is it ?

peter



Well Gerard Schulz has "left the building" (and forums) so Peter don't expect an answer to your bullet order being 9 months and waiting ... undelivered ....



Maybe Peter can start a bunch of threads around the internet demanding an answer. Then ridiculing those who know about the order.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #155480 - 04/03/10 04:52 PM

You are correct but what seems a contradiction is simply my not making myself clear in my post.

I have not had a GS Custom in my hands That was included in my recommendations simply based on the design being the same as the North Fork. All mention of measurement has to do with the bore, and groove measurement of the barrels on the rifle. The North fork I have on hand, and have used them in my rifles. The GS Custom is exactly the same design where the bearing surface of the bullets is concerned. That is the only important thing to avoid OSR. SO being of the same design, and the same basic material as the North Fork, was the reason for my addition of them. However I have since seen pictures of one GS Customs that showed the rifling had indeed engraved the solid body of the shank,IMO. Gerard doesn't agree that the shank is engraved in those pictures however, and that is his opinion as well! (I was asked to modify this post in regard to the afore mentioned bullets causeing OSR in a Double rifle) The bullets he posted to me were not the one I saw. I do reccomend GS Custom bullets as long as the barrels on a particualr double rifle's barrels are slugged to be proper dimentions. The design is a good one.That doesn't apply to all Mono-metal bullet designs or materials!
What I said about using only bullets that I have had in hand in rifles that I have had in hand wasn't made clear in that post. All mention of measurement is of barrels, because modern bullets are consistent IMO, but double rifle barrels are not. Any design that has wide BANDS and where the rifling engraves the solid shank between the Bands, or pressure rings is a poor design IMO.

Sorry about the mix up but it certainly was simply a poorly structured sentence.

In any event, there will be nothing further on OSR from me here, because it seems people have their minds made up, and repetition will not change that fact!

...............................................

Edited by DUGABOY1 (05/03/10 11:44 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #155494 - 04/03/10 07:58 PM

Quote:

what seems a contradiction is simply my not making myself clear in my post.




Well, I don't know, I thought what you had said was quite clear. This was that you had personally used and or examined in your own hands, GS and Northfork bullets, and found them to be safe in double rifles.

Quote:

As far as certain companies products, as I have said on many occasions, I will only reccomend those that I have personally used, and/or examined in my own hands, for hardness, measurement, and design. In that light the only ones I have found to be safe in a double rifle of proper dimentions, and the two I have listed repeatedly, are the North Fork, and the GS CUSTOM.




Then you completely changed the story by saying you have never used them and never even had them in hand.


Quote:

Gerard,I have never used a GSC bullet in anything! That is not because I think they are somhow enferior to any other bullet of similer design, but that I simply have never even had one in my hand.




To add further confusion to this, some time back in another thread you said that you use GSC bullets in ALL your rifles including doubles.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....=true#Post85349

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DarylS
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Re: I Read All Of The OSR Thread, Time For The Machine Shop! [Re: 4seventy]
      #155510 - 05/03/10 04:14 AM

Interesting twist in the thread. Must be synthetic.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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