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just check out 9.3x57's penetration tests in the Steer's head thread - the .45/70 factory 405gr. did as well or better in expansion and penetration than most rifle bullets - even to about matching the .375 with 300gr. Swift A-frames. It's performance is way out of proportion to it's 'paper' stats.

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The 30-06 is vastly superior to the 45-70 in every respect.

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I don't agree with this statement but would rather put it "The 30-06 is vastly more versatile to the 45-70". That I'd go with.

There are sort-of specialty applications where the .45-70 is, I believe, superior. I just shot a .45-70 test today I haven't been able to duplicate with the '06. I'll report on it soon, hopefully with meat pictures attached.

If I could only buy one rifle and the choice was between the .30-06 and .45-70, I'd pick the .30-06.

But that all-round gun would be a bolt gun, not a Baikal double...

But a double .45-70, if capable of handling stiff Marlin-type loads would be a very useful rifle around here.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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" This is an easy load to duplicate for the double .45/70, running typical pressures OK for an original weak actioned .45/70."

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you can duplicate that velocity (approx. 1,650fps) with a 420gr. bullet in the weaker actions, indeed, 1,700fps is available, with appropriate powders, of course.

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This falls into the silly world of DR nostalgia. The 30-06 is vastly superior to the 45-70 in every respect. It's like those people who would never own a .375 H&H mag double.

I would chose a 30-06 over a 45-70 for the Baikal and have a rifle that is much more lethal.

I used to have a Merkel .375 H&H and loved it. I only sold it to help fund a .35 WCF H&H double rifle.

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I caused a stir, that's what I was hoping for


Having seen what both rounds can do inside 100 yards, the factory loaded 45-70 hollow points inflicts much more damage than the soft point 30-06.

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Dugaboy, I can only speak to the part of your rant I think was aimed at me, but if you had shot my .45-70 load and the .375 in game and done extensive testing as I have, you would speak differently. Both by test and when shot in game, the Lee 402HP in a heavy load is no "normal" .45-70 bullet. I've shot enough game and done enough testing with both to stand by my statement.

Obviously you have no experience with it.

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.................... you assume, and you know what they say about assumption! I was probably shooting game with bothe the 45-70, and the 375 H&H before you were born!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Your cagey answer removes all need to assume.

As I said, you have never shot a single head of game with the .45-70 stiff-loaded with the Lee 402HP.

Try it, and you'll post a recantation of your snide remarks.

I believe you are honest enough to at least do that.

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You are correct in one thing I've never shot anything with a LEE 402HP! I have, however, been shooting game up to and including Coastal Brown bear with hyper loaded 45-70s for years in a very strong Ruger No1. That makes little difference, however! Your assumption is that I have no experience shooting large animals with both the 45-70, and the 375 H&H, and that the 45-70 loaded with your magic bullet makes the 45-70 equal to the 375H&H. The 45-70 is illegal for all the big five over the leopard in every country where they are hunted. The 375H&H however is legal for all of the big five in every country where the big five are hunted. The reason for that is the 45-70 doesn't come up to the energy levels to be legal.

What you 45-70 crackpots don't seem to understand is simply because the barrel that carries the bullet from a 45-70 is .458 dia doesn't make it a big bore cartridge. The 45-70 is a good short range cartridge for woods hunting in North America, but when you get down to stopping power it is little better than a prayer. The 375 H&H with a 300 gr controlled expansion bullet does more tissue damage on large animals than any HOLLOW POINT bullet fired from a 45-70 at any range you want to name. The hollow point bullets are not a proper bullet for large dangerous game. What is needed is deep straight-line penetration, from any angle on tough animals like Cape buffalo.

I think you are probably the one who has no experience shooting dangerous game with either of the cartridges you claim to know so much about. I assure you testing bullets in jell, or wet paper is not what is needed to make such judgments. Let me know when you have taken a few Cape buffalo, and hippo with your illegal 45-70, and then we might be on the same level to discuss this. Till then, keep on shooting wet phone books, and an occasional mule deer, and making assumptions based on that data!

Today I own three rifles chambered for 45-70, and three chambered for 375H&H, and 75 other long rifles up to and including 577NE, and have taken "large" game with all of them above 25 cal, and dangerous game with all of them above 30 caliber. Somehow I get the idea you are under the misguided assumption that I'm a little 20 yr old punk, when I probably have kids older than you, the youngest being 45 yrs old, and the oldest being 53 yrs old. I was born in the 1930s, and started hunting on my own in 1940, and killed my first head of dangerous game at 13 yrs of age. So friend you peddle your vast experience someplace else, and when you fail to stop a pissed off cape buffalo (an animal that habitually takes an average of six shots from a 470NE before going down), with your little cowboy pop-gun your last thoughts are going to be "Damn, I wish I had USED ENOUGH GUN!"

..........................Bye now, hope to see you in the Upper Lupande of Zambia some day, but I doubt I will, you will, most likely, still be shooting wet paper!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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As for me, if the question is whether to buy a Baikal in .45/70 or .30-06 the answer is easy. They are so cheap, buy both.

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There's one thing certainly true about the .45/70. It elicits strong opinions on both sides.

As for me, if the question is whether to buy a Baikal in .45/70 or .30-06 the answer is easy. They are so cheap, buy both. Then after playing with them, either keep both or sell the one you don't like as much. There's no way to lose like that.

You will probably end up keeping both, as each caliber is great in its own right. They don't really overlap.

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I really don't think anybody here is asserting that the .45/70 is a dangerous game rifle cartridge, which it plainly is not. Daryl says it plays hell on moose. That's something he unquestionably knows about. I'll accept that. I'm sure as heck not going to hunt something that bites or stomps using a .45/70, and I don't think Daryl is advocating that.

I've owned several .45/70's but never hunted with them. The Pedersoli I had would make a fine hunting rifle used within its limitations. Daryl says great for North American game. I agree.

Curl

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I think when you state that the 45-70 is equal to the 375 H&H you have just said the 45-70 is a dangerous game cartridge! To back that statement up someone quoted Frank C. Barnes C.O.T.W. as proof of the value of loading the 45-70's use on dangerous game, stateing further that frank didn't offer the same advice for the 375 H&H! Well is that any suprise? No such thing needs to be said about the 375H&H, because it is a dangerous game cartridge, and needs no heavier loading data to make it so.

Anyone who has a modicum of knowledge of firearms loading knows the you never take any load advice from "Cartridges Of The World" , especially for use in a double rifle, without a very heavy grain of salt. There are more mistakes in all the editions of C.O.T.W than any book ever written on the subject.

I have no problem with this little rifle in either chambering being used for general HUNTING, but a stopping rifle it certainly IS NOT in either chambering. The Pedersoli, OTH, will take far heavier loads than the Biakal,and can be used for what Daryl is thinking of as a use to STOP wounded large North American animals, but I wouldn't include the Coastal brown bear in this use even with the Pedersoli chambered for the 45-70. Though the Pedersoli can handle higher pressure loads, it will not stand loads as heavy as the Marlin Guide gun can. I have one of these doubles re-chambered for the 458RCBS, and it will just come in under the minimum for the Brown bears. A friend of mine (PWN375)who posts here on occasion, had one re-chambered for the 450NE #2 and it does fine on even cape buffalo, and is in fact owned today by a PH in Africa.

I simply think these very optimistic threads on the 45-70 are dangerous to the young guys who think anything they read on one of these hunting web-sites is the word of GOD. And when a person states the 45-70 with a particular load is equal to the 375H&H without a disclaimer that states that load is only to be used in rifle far stronger than the Biakal double rifle, is IMO, a dangerous habit! This was my whole disagreement with this thread because it was mixed in a thread about a weak little double rifle without any explanation.

If used for general hunting both the chamberings, with factory ammo or equivalent, are OK in the Biakal but not with loads that come any place close to being equal to a 375 H&H magnum!

........................SOooooooooooo I guess we will simply have to agree to dis agree, and we certainly do!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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I was led to believe that the .45-70 can be loaded up to .458 WM power levels, ASSUMING you have
a rifle with an action that can handle the pressures, Ruger No.1 for example. Am I wrong ?
best
Mike

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The Cor-Bon 405-grain PEN soild on the left was recovered after penetrating both shoulders of a Cape buffalo bull and both shoudlers of a cow standing seven yards beyond. The bullet on the right was recovered after striking the buffalo in the rump, then penetrating legnthwise taking off the top of the heart and lodging in the brisket

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1st of all, we must be careful we don't let opinions and misinformation lead us astray. I prefer fact and experience to be the guidlines I go by.

Much misinformation is available, while much concrete information is also available. Personal opinions about a specific ctg., guided by their 'beliefs' or preferences can not be allowed to guide us on sitability of a particular round for a job to be done. A statement, such as made by dugaboy as to the only practical 'use' of a .45/70 fits this perceived opinion and misinformation perfectly.

I accessed several of my books on 45/70 data and rest assured, as loaded today, it's potential escalates it from it's roots and primary intention of use - that as an anti-personel weapon. Hell, the buffalo hunters of the 1870's through 80's found that out - should be bury our heads in the sand and say it didn't happen?

As loaded today, even if the allowable pressure of 20,000PSI noted by dugaboy was correct (it isn't), this round will still produce 1,700fps with a 400gr. jacketed bullet & generally 100fps higher speeds with a lead bullet of the same weight.

Although 9.3x57's 'Favourite Load" which matched the wonderfully effective .375H&H in test materials and on GAME, was shot in a modern lever gun, does not mean that speed can not be achieved with less pressure and be useable in a peceived 'weaker' action. The load he uses might produce more pressure than the Baikal can handle - I don't know - I seriously doubt it. I do know from experience, that with 'other' powders, that speed can be beated at even lower pressures than he lists as acceptable.

For instance, Hodgdon lists loads for 3 separate 'classes' of rifle, in the .45/70. They start with "Trapdoor Rifles". We can assume they mean original & replica rifles which are restricted to a certain pressure level. Their data runs up to a maximum of 28,000CUP with some pressure stable powders, bit lower, in the 25,000CUP range with most others.

We KNOW that in this particular ctg. case, PSI and CUP are the same numbers, meaning that 28,000CUP is actually the same as 28,000PSI- in this ctg. Some others share this trait, ie: .444 Marlin, .45/90, .458 Win., .44 mag. and .357 mag. Other ctgs. and case shapes do not share this 'trait'.

Hodgdon's Trapdoor Springfield data shows data for 300gr. jacketed bullets loaded to in excess of 2,000fps in 7 different loads, 7 different powders. Their data also shows speeds for 385gr. cast bullets to 1,819fps(25,900CUP) and 405gr. Cast to 1,718fps (20,900CUP). NOTE the speed and pressure!

Lee's data, safe for all .45/70 rifles in GOOD condition, shows 340gr. lead bullet at 1,850fps for a mere 18,000PSI, a 420gr. cast at 1,656fps at 17,700PSI and a 500gr. lead bullet at 1,532fps developing 18,400PSI.

Other data I have, lists .45/70 loads that do not exceed 21,000CUP chronographed in 22" bls. as in:
300gr. Nosler Partition @ 1,870fps, @ 1925fps and 1,908fps with 3 different powders.
350gr. Jacketed @ 1,730fps, 1,711fps and 1,846fps.
400gr. Jacketed @ 1,678fps, 1,744fps, 1,720fps, 1,666fps.
415gr. RCBS Cast @ 1,616fps, 1,616fps, 1,689fps, 1,710fps, 1,748fps, 1,748fps.
These 415gr. loads about dupicate or exceed 9.3's favourite load which does so well compared to the .375, in the baffles and on game - see, experience & concrete data is the best teacher, rather than outright untruthful statements of someones ill-informed beliefs - it is WAY ahead of the .30/06 - in my opinion, of course - the numbers speak for themselves and when coupled with experience, outweigh the aforementioned beliefs and statements.

Now, these are LESS than the pressure levels than Hodgdon says are OK for trapdoors and of course, are also just fine for the Baikal.
This piddling little 2.1" case as loaded above, actually is ahead of the .45 3-1/4" BPE, which develops another 5,000CUP with just it's black powder factory loads yet only barely achieves these smokeless, lighter pressure .45/70's speeds yet it must use lighter bullets than the .45/70. This old number is far from antiquated. With factory BP laods, the .45/70 developes an impressive 22,000PSI/CUP, as recorded by Accurate Arms and listed in their handloading book. I couldn't lay my hands on either book today, but they also list similar loads - in the 1,800fps range, at the same pressures or less than developed by black powder.

Raising the bar to 28,000CUP adds another 100fps to 200fps only. This is normal with such high expansion ratio ctgs.

My 1.9" .45/60 Sharps, with it's huge 1868 BP-type firing pin, is totally safe with a load of Benchmark producing 1,850fps with the 405gr. RP bullet. This load is producing under 19,000CUP as it is 1gr. above the starting load with that powder @ 17,100CUP. The longer barrel length helps, of course, yet in a short barrel of 22", this load will well produce over 1,600fps. It isno slouch. I suggest everyone interested purchase the Hodgdon Annual Manual - every year as I do. It also has some good articles - worth the price of admission in themselves.

Pick your powders and it's amazing what you can do with this old number. It is not restricted to 1,320fps with a 400gr. lead bullet - not today, it isn't - by a long shot, even though those seemingly weak ballistics kill buffalo dead - dead faster than a premium load in an '06 or .300 mag. THIS I've seen myself.

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I have both guns and have done extensive load testing with both. None of the below loads showed any signs of pressure. No flattened primers, cases just fell out etc...

Welcome to the Forum!!

And thanks for posting!

What accuracy are you getting? Please give as much detail as you can, as some of us that are interested in them are really curious. For example, even with the adjustable barrels, I've read reports of barrels shooting no closer than 4 inches at 100 yards, with center-to-center of farthest shots in four shot groups going about 6 inches. If that is about what can be expected, the ranging capability of the .30-06 is gone to waste. This is where Curl's suggestion might be a really good one; Buy both and sell the lemon, unless neither are lemons...
Anyway, your experience and comments would be very interesting.


I don't have a dog in this fight and do not wish to. Just stating what I've done and found.

Oh, if it were only that easy...............

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I think that the two schools of small fast bullets and slow thick ones are the problem here, duggaboy att the ,375 end and daryl and 9,3x57 at the other.

But why is a 458 bullet passing thru a body at the same lenght as a 375 so much worse?
I alway thought that a blunt object would be worse then a sharp/smaller one. Some time ago i slipped when trying to bend open a "sealed" air filter and ran a broken off screwdriver some 4-6mm into my left palm, and my god that hurt, i would rather take a knife and run it clean thru any day. My point is that a blunt 458 even at a lower speed should in my book be better of than a thinner one given equal penetration.

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So please educate me, why is it so much better with the 375.

btw, a quick look at a powder manufactors web a 300grs bullet at under 28000psi would give 2425fps, thats not bad, but to light for the bore sadly.

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The 100 yard accuracy potential of some of these guns {by report, not by my experience since I don't have any} seems to indicate, frankly, that the guns are best used at 150 yards or less...regardless of caliber, the accuracy being the limiting factor for big game.

In light of that, I'd take the .45-70 any day over the option, the .30-06, in the Baikal. Meaning, IF I'm limited to 150 yard shots due to the accuracy of the guns, the .45-70 would get my nod every time.

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Thanks Mike & 9.3x57, I wasn't questioning your intent.

As to fight - I cannot see why there even was one. The facts speak for themselves.
Now, if you don't handload and don't want to, factory ammo is avialable which brings the .45/70 up to date as Mike's loads show.
CorBon is only one of these new manufacturers of higher power .45/70's. I'd call them to find out about their pressure data on the loads they offer.

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Daryl,you are right, if factory loads are used there is no problem with this little double rifle, but the custom plus-P loads offers by some small ammo makers are not safe in a double, especially a weak one.

This thread is about a double rifle,after all, and there is a misconception that chamber pressure is all that is a consideration for ammo to be used in any rifle.

First you never rely on the common pressure signs you get in a bolt, or lever action, when loading for a double rifle. Things like flattened primers, are a sign of "OVER PRESSRE" and do not show up till you go over pressure. In a bolt rifle this is OK, if you back off, but in a double rifle that may just be the load that blows the rifle off face. The 28000 PSI is absolute limit, not opperating pressure, and I assure you if a steady diet of that pressure is fed into the Baikal is WILL fail sooner or later. The other thing you guys seem to never state exactly what bullet is used in these loads. This is a real mistake when dealing with double rifles. The weight of the bullet is not all that counts here. Things like the mono-metal bullets with a solid shank that is groove diamether is a real mistake in a double rifle cheap, or expensive. Unless these bullets have pressure rings cut into solid shank the bottoms of which are slightly less than bore diamether, they are no suitable for use in a double rifle. Lead core bullets, or cast gas check are OK, but the type of bullet used in a double rifle is critical.

New or old cheap or expencive, the break-top double rifle is 17th century technology, and has it's own set of rules. When dealing with a double rifle you need to forget everything you have ever learned about loading, and load by double rifle rules. Just posting loads that you have not used in double rifles on a thread that is about a double rifle is irrsponcible! That is either going to get someone to damage a double rifle beyond repare, and or, injure himself. I don't think you want that to happen any more than I do!
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The Cor-Bon 405-grain PEN solid on the left was recovered after penetrating both shoulders of a Cape buffalo bull and both shoudlers of a cow standing seven yards beyond. The bullet on the right was recovered after striking the buffalo in the rump, then penetrating lengthwise taking off the top of the heart and lodging in the brisket.

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Dugaboy - what part if THIS didn't you understand?????

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I stand corrected on the shoulder/rib shot by Bryan! The COR-BON 405 grain "PEN" solid is not listed on COR-BON website however. Are you sure it was a COR-BON bullet and how was it made, a Mono-metal solid, or cast?

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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PBR,

To cut through the past three pages and get back to your question... I have both. Might I suggest you look at your hunting conditions. Brush? 45/70. Out in the open? 30/06. For simplicity, factory loads in both. I'm running factory 405's in the 45/70 for brushy whitetails. To stop a charging woodchuck out in a hay field I'm running Rem Managed Recoil 125's in the 06.

You could cheat a little by using 220's in the 30/06 for brush-busting and Black Hills cowboy loads in the 45/70 for big-bore woodchuck smashing.

Whatever, they're a ball.

Tom

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Tom:

Accuracy of both guns?

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Duggaboy, sorry your feelings got hurt about the OSR issue. As I said in the original thread, I am not denying it occured. I'm making the point here that if someone calls a bullet maker, they may very well get the go ahead to use monos in a double and then they will have to decide between you {and others} and the bullet maker. As you said, if they don't know anything about doubles, they might not know who is right...

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Says he; "Who do I believe? A bullet company that has been making the bullets for years and has their business to lose if they are wrong, or 'some guy on the internet' whose credentials are totally unknown to me"?

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For those who reckon they are fine I would ask them to call whoever is the maker and ask for a document indemnifying them for the total value of the double they are about to shoot them in with the document legalised and the US$15k say (supposing that is the rifles value) in an escrow account
while they use the bullet makers monolithics. I'll have a wager that none of these bullet makers will take the owner up on it. best, Mike

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Oh, well. I guess Graeme Wright, the London gunmakers, Ross Seyfried, me, and all the guys I know that own doubles with visisble OSR are just Bigfoot kooks. LOL.

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Nobody ever said you were kooks. Crackpots like me, maybe, but that just applies to your interest in shootin' and blastin' in general, at least in my opinion.

Your list of testimonials, etc, here is probably new to some, and I understand it is not exhaustive, but it a very good start. Thanks for posting. It puts some names and such to those who assert monos will cause damage, have seen it, etc. I know this isn't a "start" for you {it is old news to you}, but for those not familiar with the problem itself, it is a good start. I'm sure there's more.

Thanks very much.

One response I've read to some of what you've written is that some who vote against the use of mono bullets have business or other ties to "soft core" bullet companies, meaning, bluntly, as it goes, that their own self-interest does not involve the protection of doubles per se, but rather protection of some relationship {financial or otherwise} with a company that sells a product that competes with monos. Is that true in any case you are aware of?

Thanks for posting. This is helpful stuff.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (15/10/09 12:05 AM)

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I have a m98 with the boltface taken down for a rimmed cartridge, i would love taking an old 458 barrel from a old winchester or similar and run a few copper studs thru it to see if it can be made to accour on purpose.

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I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike

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I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike

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If you fire a Barnes X or banded solid down your double, it will slightly and temporarily bulge the barrel as the bullet travels down the barrel. This is because the hardness of the bullet material prevents it from obturating.

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As usual, the gunmakers misunderstand bullet design and thus classify all monos as being the same which they are most definitely not.

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If you speak with the gentlemen who regulate newly-made British doubles, you will find that they regulate with Woodleigh SOFTS. Then they fire 2 Woodleigh solids to see where they hit and they are done. So even the regulators minimize use of very hard bullets like steel-lined solids.

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So the problem isnt new, only that they used the "hard" bullets every time with monos?
Now this starts to sound like some usefull information concerning osr.

I recon this problem is accouring more often as the bore gets larger? How manyn 9,3mm are there out there with osr?
Now that german stopped the lead bann test, not many will be fired over there, but if they would all those combos like mine with strawpipe chaped barrels would have gone bad.
But is there anyone here with a drilling or combo with osr?

PS. Il guess the mod is out hunting or something as this thread has bona bananas.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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500grains

Agree with what you say, however I am just not willing to try,
especially on an Old DR.

It's an expensive mistake !!!

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500grains, the issue you bring up has actually been addressed by Banres who state they have used strain gauges and determined that no expansion of the barrel takes place.

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Haven't seen you post in a while, Dan.

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Well, another forum had me detained in a FEMA camp, but I managed to escape....

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Stick to Woodleigh softs and the old double will be fine.

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500G:

Are you saying no solids {FMJ's} shouldn't be used at all?

Your previous post seemed to indicate the possible danger of using Woodleigh solids.

I know I have tried some "kitchen-table" experimenting; trying to resize .375 North Forks, Hornady steel FMJ and Barnes TSX down to 9.3 as I do with manyother bullets.

No dice on the Hornady FMJ and Barnes. They both seemed to take about equal amounts of grunting {technical term} to get them stuck in the die...

The North Fork went thru like corn thru a goose.

You are right about them at least in my experience, their ribbed surface resizes much easier.

My feeling on this subject is that there are severa TYPES of damage that may occur to a double. They may have a variety of causes, and certain bullets may cause one or more type of damage. Heckm even the mere shooting of MANY Woodleigh softs I suppose can wear out a barrel, just like any other rifle. Obviously you don't just spin the tube off and spin a new one on, so to speak, with a double like you do with a bolt gun.

As for "rifling" showing on the outside of the barrel, I have a couple theories, one of them related to bullets, one of them not. It is hard to imagine a slightly undersize bullet causing even spiral effect on the outside of the tube, but possibly other causes might. I have experienced a could similar phenomena occur in knifemaking.

450366 asks a VERY good question. Many combos have VERY thin rifle barrels. Anybody seen OSR on them?

400: Have you ever seen OSR appear on a newly blued barrel, or does it only show up on the original finish? Is the finish worn on OSR barrels?

As for the OSR: are the interior dimensions of the bores changed evenly? Have you slugged an "OSR" barrel before and after it occured?

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400 {or others who might know}:

Can you please provide a specific list of the names of double rifle makers that warn against the use of monolithic solids or Barnes solids?

I actually need the names of the companies.

PM me if you like.

Thanks.

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500G:

Are you saying no solids {FMJ's} shouldn't be used at all?

Your previous post seemed to indicate the possible danger of using Woodleigh solids.

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