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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
In Praise of Smaller Doubles
      #80190 - 08/06/07 11:00 PM

The common conception of the Double Rifle is the big bore, dangerous game stoppers, the 600 Nitros, the 500s, the 470 and pretty much anything from the 450-400 3" on up. At the same time, the DR in the medium or smaller calibers tend to get overlooked despite the fact that they are very useful as African rifles for thin skinned and 'fill the meat pot' guns, used quite a bit for bore in Europe and more frequently wild pig and elk rifles at shorter ranges here in the US. Prices for these rifles have not increased as dramatically as those of the big honkers, and the sheer pleasure of shooting them is too often ignored in general and even here at this site.

I had the chance to add to my collection of doubles the other day by finding a LNIB factory-cased Perugini-Visini Victoria Model M in 7.65R with a claw-mounted 1.5-5 Leupold scope for a very, very reasonable price, far less than a new purchase. The 7.65R is a ballistic twin of the 280 Remington, flat shooting, quite reasonable to purchase in a factory load (S&B loads it, as do others) and in this 10lb 10oz double (with scope) an absolute joy to shoot. Recoil is virtually nil. My experience with rifles like this is that they are usually perfectly regulated to shot at 100yds and a second round can be wacked out quickly and on target without the recover time needed for a heavier load.

I have several vintage DRs in smaller calibers that I find far more fun to shoot than my bigger honkers such as my 500 or my 476. I have a W&S built in the 20s in a 250-3000 that is just like shooting a 22, and not much more expensive to take out and bang away with. It would make a marvelous hunting rifle for light game and as it is about the size and weight of a 28 gauge, something that would be no burden at all to carry in a day long trek.

It is also my understanding based on some reading and discussion with other in England that the British makers built far more medium caliber doubles than the large bores we normally hear so much about. When first introduced as a black powder round, and then converted to Nitro, the 303 seems to have been one of the favorites of all chamberings beginning just before the turn of the last century and continuing into the 20s and 30s. I have a 1900 built Purdey hammerless snap action in a 303 that is just as much fun to shoot as my Webley 250-3000. Of course, and as I was pleased to find out, it cost me far less than the same rifle would have been in a dangerous game load. However, I venture to say that this rifle saw far more use than its brethern in the larger calibers despite the more substantial interest in those guns today.

There are a number of reasonably priced and lighter doubles being built today which can and should be bought by double fans. Chapuis offers its smaller doubles in 30-06 and like-sized metric loads as does Merkel in its small framed (built on 28ga frames) 141s.

Just some random thoughts here, but I would like to hear from others who own and use these medium to small caliber doubles to see if their experiences mirror mine.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (08/06/07 11:06 PM)


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500Nitro
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: dnovo]
      #80197 - 09/06/07 03:01 AM


Dave

I think it is more a case of the Big Bores just get more "air time" as they are more "interesting".

I know quite a few people who own smaller dooubles.

303 was popular - Holland did a lot, Woodward a few.


I own a 360 2 7/16th BPE BLNE.

Just never bought alot of them as big bores more my interest.

But a good summary by you.


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Anonymous
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80217 - 09/06/07 06:00 AM

Small bores? Ha I love um!!!! Must have a couple dozen or so small bore DR's and have killed just about everything with them. Light, accurate, no recoil, fun fun fun!!

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mickey
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: ]
      #80233 - 09/06/07 09:01 AM

Quote:

Small bores? Ha I love um!!!! Must have a couple dozen or so small bore DR's and have killed just about everything with them. Light, accurate, no recoil, fun fun fun!!




So you're the one. That's why I can't find anymore.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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bonanza
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: mickey]
      #80239 - 09/06/07 10:44 AM

.450” small bore? In the days of black powder it was. But the logic behind a .450” in 1885 and a .303 today is the same, flatter trajectory. The real question begs, why a double? .577” or .303 – the answer remains the same; the double is the ultimate expression of the rifleman's rifle, the gunmakers art and the fine collector.

I doubt there is a single rifle that can do it all – a 9 Lbs 450-400 may come close - but, this gives rise to a collection of rifles: a small, medium and large bore. It's the reason I have decided to sell one of my large bores in favor of a small bore.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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es
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Loc: South Texas USA
Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: bonanza]
      #80288 - 10/06/07 01:58 PM

I think that you are very right on this the little doubles are so much easier to shoot and load for. I have one in 303 savage and it is a joy to shoot and hunt with.

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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: dnovo]
      #80300 - 11/06/07 01:15 AM

To all/any of you far more knowledgable about smaller bore Doubles that I---

Which Double caliber is closest to the 30.06 ballistics in range and trajectory with its 180 gr load?

How about a 7mm Mauser round with lighter than 170 gr loads?

How about 6mm calibers?

Thanks for any input, cause ballistics get confusing to me in the in the more commonly available smaller rimmed calibers.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (11/06/07 01:16 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80303 - 11/06/07 01:34 AM


Suggest you buy Cartridges of the World.

Great Reference book.


Holland's 30 Super (300H&H Flanged) would prob come close.


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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80305 - 11/06/07 03:34 AM


hoppdoc,

Quote:

To all/any of you far more knowledgable about smaller bore Doubles that I---

Which Double caliber is closest to the 30.06 ballistics in range and trajectory with its 180 gr load?




How about the Merkel 141 E in 30.06 with a 180 gr. load?


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3515
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: AzGuy]
      #80325 - 11/06/07 10:20 AM

Agree with 500Nitro: .300 Flanged is a marvellous cartridge for a double, and very much under-rated in today's "new-is-better" society.

Another marvellous light DR cartridge is the .32-40. It looks just like a perfectly scaled-down .450 NE, and was loaded by Kynoch for decades. With a 165gr bullet at 1750 fps it is a joy in a light rifle, and was very popular for the smaller deer and antelope. Its a personal favourite of mine, and I'll own a double so-chambered one day although for now I have to be content with a vintage Martini single-shot.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #80342 - 11/06/07 02:17 PM

I currently have a new Merkel 141 in 8x57JRS. Just completed mounting a scope then took the weekend off to go to a reunion. Will try to shoot it this week and see how it does. Have a bunch of test stuff loaded as it did not come with a target and therefore don't know what it was regulated with. My previous light double was an Otto Geyger in 8x60RS. Even with the hassle of making the brass from 9.3x74r (RCBS had the forming and neckreaming dies) and loading it was a terribly accurate rifle. Had claw bases but I made custom bases for Leupold rings and it shot wonderfully. Really shouldn't have gotten rid of it. I find the small bores to be nice rifles to use on almost anything and if you are looking for something close to an 06 the 8x57 should fill the bill.

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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80410 - 12/06/07 09:58 AM

The 30.06 and 8x57 are very attractive due to the easy ammo availablity--

The 300 flanged sounds interesting.
I can't find the ballistics anywhere though-
Is it an unusual loading?
Can new brass be obtained anywhere?

If you were to rebore a Double to 300 flanged what caliber Doubles would be the best/easiest candidates?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80411 - 12/06/07 10:32 AM

300 Flanged? 300 H&H is a belted rimless cartridge. Flanged=rimmed cartridge? Never seen a 300 Flanged although I own a Martini-Hagn single shot in a 300 H&H as well as a Skodia sidelock O/U in the same cartridge. The 300 H&H is a very nice round based on the earlier 375 H&H, but it is also a belted, rimless rather than a flanged or rimmed cartridge.

But then again, I am not all-knowing so perhaps I am wrong or you are confusing the 375 Flanged with the 300, as the 375H&H belted rimless came out with the 375 Flanged as H&H's companion for DRs. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (12/06/07 10:33 AM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: dnovo]
      #80421 - 12/06/07 12:55 PM

The new Kynoch website lists it as ".300 H&H Flanged NE", but doesn't include an illustration.
Roosevelt & Drake sell individual H&H-headstamped rounds for $6 a pop!

dnovo: You need to upgrade your shooting library.....!

Start with "History & Development of Small Arms Ammunition Vol.3: British Sporting" by George Hoyem. ...and Fleming's equivalent is a good addition for the more serious British sporting cartridge collector.

Hell, I bet even "Cartridges of the World" has the Super .30 Flanged!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #80424 - 12/06/07 01:11 PM

Found a picture and ballistics on the Kynoch site--

http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm

Click the cartridge name for the ballistic info and picture of the round.

I like it!!

They also have a 240 Flanged H&H shooting a 100 gr bullet at 2770 fps.Bet that would be a great rifle to play with at distance!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (12/06/07 01:12 PM)


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Marrakai
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80425 - 12/06/07 01:16 PM

hoppe:
Well done. The pop-up for the flanged cartridge was blocked on my previous attempt.





http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/300%20flanged.htm


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500Nitro
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #80427 - 12/06/07 01:36 PM



hopdoc

IMHO, 240's are a shit of a cartridge -in both Double and Bolt action form.

Odd sized bore for a start which makes getting bullets for it a real sh#t.


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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80434 - 12/06/07 09:28 PM

I am assuming H&H 240 caliber implies .243 bullets which are available from many bullet makers here in the states. A 243 is a good medium game round in a bolt but a bit much for small game.


The 300H&H rimmed would seem to be a great Double round.What would be the best rebore Double candidates or is a 308 bore too small for past popular doubles?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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bonanza
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80443 - 12/06/07 10:16 PM

The .35 winchester I'm attempting to buy started life as a .303

A small frame 30-06 would be ideal as a small bore. Think about it.


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500Nitro
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: bonanza]
      #80448 - 12/06/07 10:41 PM



"A small frame 30-06 would be ideal as a small bore. Think about it."


A small frame 30 Super Flanged would be better !
or one of the 7mm's


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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80456 - 13/06/07 12:53 AM

Chapuis makes a 7x65R and a ??30 R Balser UGEX Double which could be candidates for a rebore. A specific twist on the 7x65R could be designated. I have no idea of the specs or twist of the 30 R Balser(never heard of that caliber before).

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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bonanza
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80464 - 13/06/07 03:20 AM

I like the idea of getting 30-60 anywhere. I own a rimmless DR and don't have any hang-ups over using rimless ammo.

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foxfire
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80465 - 13/06/07 05:23 AM

hoppdoc,
I have a double in 7X65R and I think it's a great caliber. I've got three Whitetail and one Fallow deer all one shot kills and it's a sweet shooting double.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished


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hoppdoc
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: foxfire]
      #80506 - 13/06/07 11:00 AM

I am sure that the rimless rounds are accurate and extract ok.

My concern over a rimless cartridge would be how it works with ejectors. I would love to have ejectors on such a gun.
Anyone have any ejectors on their rimless cartridges??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: In Praise of Smaller Doubles [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81191 - 24/06/07 01:35 AM

Ejectors on rimless cartridges?

Yes!! and they work just fine, no matter what the theorists say.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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