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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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FourTails
.224 member


Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 17
Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion
      #24254 - 16/01/05 12:10 PM

I've posted this question on Accurate Reloading and thought it best to also querry here. I have a Model 24 Winchester 12 guage that I would like to convert to a double .470 Nitro. Will it withstand the pressure of the .470 Nitro or is it going to shoot off the face with standard loads? The shotgun is very sound. The smith I've talked to about the project said he normally does them in 20 inch barrels. I would prefer 22 or 24 inch. Any recommendations on the 20 versus the 22/24 inch? I've also heard the Model 24 has the round extractor that had a tendency to slip over the rim of the shell and this problem would need to be addressed. There was also a problem with something else I can't at this time remember but as I recall it was nothing major and could also be handled by a competant smith. If not the .470 Nitro, what is the largest caliber one would recommend on the conversion? Thanks and all advice/help will be greatly appreciated. Mike

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vapodog
.300 member


Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: FourTails]
      #24259 - 16/01/05 01:20 PM

I have the same question but in my case it's about the SKB late model 385 boxlock in 12 Ga and in 28 Ga.

I'm of the opinion that Searcy got started modifying BSS actions before he started making his own.

I'm very concerned about ruining a very rare and expensive shotgun action because I over stressed it.

Very roughly a .470 Nitro at 40,000 PSI will create twice the force against the breach block as a 12 Ga at 11,000 psi

Read Ellis book "making double rifles from shotgun actions and he prefers actions where some type of lock engages the rear of the breach block....I believe he says birds heads

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3496
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: FourTails]
      #24263 - 16/01/05 01:38 PM

FourTails:
Ellis Brown's book on this subject is probably still the best reference, and you should pick up a copy if you haven't already done so. He would not entertain the idea of building nitro doubles on ANY American action. He doesn't like Brit shotgun actions either, but has a serious preference for German actions, and insists on a strong third bite like the Greener cross-bolt.

Yes, I know some nitro double rifles have been built on Winnies or Lefevers, but the .470 cartridge has a fairly large head-diameter so the back-thrust on the standing breech would be fairly high.

Probably sounds too conservative, but without a Greener crossbolt, I reckon the .32-40 is about as high as I would go with confidence! Remember, you are setting off several tons of pyrotechnics about 6 inches in front of your face: don't take this lightly!


[Sorry vapodog, posted in on top of you. We agree though...]

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (16/01/05 01:48 PM)

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: FourTails]
      #24270 - 16/01/05 02:36 PM

In reply to:

The smith I've talked to about the project said he normally does them in 20 inch barrels. I would prefer 22 or 24 inch. Any recommendations on the 20 versus the 22/24 inch?



What is normally? How many conversions has he done? Have you seen any of his work in converting to a 470?

By the way, minimum 24".

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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FourTails
.224 member


Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 17
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: mickey]
      #24273 - 16/01/05 03:11 PM

Mickey, The smith I have mentioned has done numerous double rifle conversions including the 45.70. Realizing the .470 Nitro is a cat of another color, he stated that before he would take on the project he wanted to give the shotgun in question a REALLy complete overview. He also mentioned he would be checking the pressures generated by the .470, and mentioned beefing up the bites for a stronger gun. This part I need someone to take the pencil tip and say, "Well, right here we do this and right here we do this, etc." I've read Graeme Wrights Shooting the British Double and have read numerous post here about the complications of getting it done right so am somewhat hesitant to start unless it could be done safely with the outcome, hopefully a good shooter. I'll keep you informed as to what is going on here and will take any and all advice given. Thanks again, Mike

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: FourTails]
      #24304 - 17/01/05 01:30 AM

Fourtrails,
What do you estimate the cost of this project to be?

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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vapodog
.300 member


Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: Rusty]
      #24307 - 17/01/05 02:25 AM

Rusty.....hope you don't mind my answering that question.....as I have built a double barrels from rifled blanks for a shotgun action.....actually it was a .30-30 for a 410 bore double. I had a shooting experiment and decided to destroy it and start over but haven't do so yet. The work of the project is such that if I was a practiced artist at this task the job would run in the neighborhood of $4,000 give/take as each one is a custom.....one cannot make a run of a dozen monoblocs since the next customer will have a different action to fit. I'm not in the business of gunsmithing.....purely a hobbiest that hobbies all too much

I just wonder what the insurance company would say when I told them I wanted liability insurance for this business???

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: vapodog]
      #24314 - 17/01/05 04:36 AM

I do not see the logic is spending $4000 give or take, to convert a shotgun to 470 Nitro, that will have little value, that might blow up on your face, when you can buy a proper new made 470 used for 8 or 9K That will hold its value and not blow up in your face.

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FourTails
.224 member


Reged: 07/01/04
Posts: 17
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: NE450No2]
      #24315 - 17/01/05 04:56 AM

After taking a second, third, and final look at the shotgun in question I have decided whole-heartly to disregard the project as both insane and money wasted. I now lean toward a .470 Nitro from Butch Searcy (the PH Model) or a Champlin Brousse. I talked to Butch the other day and he stated parts for his, if I remember correctly, doubles are being machined here in the US and shipped to Africa to be assembled. The new line starting at 8K. That's about $1,500.00 less than the original PH Model. I appreciate the advice from everyone here and will get a copy of Ellis Brown's book on this subject. Someday I would like to continue my quest in this direction but only in an intelligent and safe manner. Rusty-If I owned the insurance company one couldn't get coverage period. And the price for the aforementioned project-damn near what a new Searcy would cost. Enough said. Thanks again all, Mike

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Model 24 Winchester for Double Rifle Conversion [Re: FourTails]
      #24334 - 17/01/05 09:28 AM

4TRAILS , I wouldn't try to make a 470NE out of a little Mod 24. It is simply not up to it, IMO! If done properly, you could probably get away with a nice rifle chambered for something no larger than a 30-40 Kreag, or 303 Britt, and maybe a a 405 Win. The key is to have it done properly, and anyone who wants to do a 470NE on a Mod 24, and reccomends 20" barrels, is not the man I'd have build it! There are a lot of very good gunsmiths out there who do wonderful work, on bolt rifles, but are complete dunces where double rifles are concerned! You might get in touch with David Yale, up in YellowJacket, Colorado, and ask him what he reccomends! Yale has built some really nice double rifles on shotgun actions! If you want a double rifle that is worth haveing, then start with a quality shotgun, and I too reccomend German actions over Britt actions. This is for two reasons, the first of which is the destroying of a fine Britt shotgun, and second of which is, I believe the German shotgun actions are built stronger, though some are quite funny looking! The money spent on this project, will make a big dent in the total cost of an off the shelf "NEW" 470 NE double, which is a big improvement over any conversion!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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