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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1130
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: DarylS]
      #233846 - 09/08/13 08:26 AM

Hello Daryl_S,
Quote:

".. 190gr. @ 1,960fps, wasn't it? just a guess.."



Yes, that's about right. According to writer Chuck Hawks ... "Standard American factory loads for the .303 Savage drove a round nose 190 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1980 fps and muzzle energy of 1650 ft. lbs. The 200 yard figures were 1440 fps and 875 ft. lbs. The midrange trajectory (maximum rise) of this load was 1.3" over 100 yards, 6.2" over 200 yards"

I've been doing some research on the 303 Savage and I'm finding some very interesting info. Invented in 1895 for the model 1895 which was later improved to the 1899 with minor changes.

It seems that in the very early, early loading, Savage loaded an "over-bore" sized .311 bullet for the rifle which had a .308 bore in order to increase the pressures of the cartridge, thereby giving higher velocities. Pressures / Velocities that were not obtainable in a small capacity case using the powders of the day. Only sometime later, with the advent of better powders, was the bullet dia. reduced to .308 dia.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
      #233847 - 09/08/13 08:28 AM

WOW! My jaw dropped on my keyboard.

Anyway, it appears that over these last several days a shit load of planets aligned quite nicely for a certain someone.

Tell me; look out your window and let me know if you see formations of flying pigs passing over your neighborhood as well.

Your recent purchase is certainly an example to all of us that "things" can happen, ... nice things.

All silliness aside, congratulations and enjoy!

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 934
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
      #233849 - 09/08/13 08:38 AM

Agree, congratulations on the purchase and good to hear of someone having a win.

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1130
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Claydog]
      #233856 - 09/08/13 10:54 AM

Thank you Claydog,

I thought that perhaps this little double was built under the the Centaure brand by FAUL, but those guns all seem to have had the Centaure logo or the Centaure name stamp.





This little double rifle has a stamp on the underside of each barrel, nearest the breech, that looks like a "Chicken-Head" with its mouth open. Does anyone know what this logo means?



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:25 PM)

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livinus
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Reged: 12/06/06
Posts: 47
Loc: belgium
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
      #233859 - 09/08/13 11:20 AM

Made by a consortium of Liege gunmakers, it's a good quality (for Liege) double rifle. For some reason they made them in 303 savage also (for the American market?)
The cosmetics are a bit off, but the mechanics are top quality for sure. A good deal, but on the Belgian market you can find better quality guns for less money.
Greetings,
Livinus

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: livinus]
      #233860 - 09/08/13 11:30 AM


Isn't it interesting how the Beglian market made quite a lot of guns for the English market in odd or English calibres.

303 Savage, 318 WR and many more.

Either someone in England saw an opportunity and went over
and organised it or vice versa.

It would be interesting to know which way round it occurred
and how many different guns were made and what calibres.


The only guns I have never liked in DR's have been
Cogswell and Harrison 375 2 1/2 which I think were
made there as well. No engraving at all on most.

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Sville
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Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
      #233866 - 09/08/13 06:52 PM

Its the trade mark of Jean Falla. Made barrels of very good quality. I have the same trade mark on my DR. /Staffan

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Nordmann
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Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
      #233869 - 09/08/13 07:37 PM

Ok...have to admit it looks much better in the latest pics, than it did in the original auction listing.

Might have to eat some humble pie and say that it looks like a fairly well made gun and good value for money. Far to good for a lamp stand! Still not keen on the caliber though, but thats something else, and a cheek piece might have been a better investment than that carving on the stock.

Please note* some of my comments were actually meant to be a wind up, but it seems that although the American language was directly influenced by the English language... the humor is def not the same!

buckstiffy I wish you the best of luck with it, and if you do ever decide to make a lamp stand out of it, please make sure you fit a 3 pin UK plug!

Best
James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1130
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Sville]
      #233873 - 09/08/13 08:25 PM

Hello Nordmann,

Quote:

"...Might have to eat some humble pie and say that it looks like a fairly well made gun and good value for money..."
.
.

"...Far to good for a lamp stand!..."


Oh sure ... now you tell me ? ? ?





Quote:

"...Still not keen on the caliber though, but thats something else, and a cheek piece might have been a better investment than that carving on the stock..."



Yes Nordmann, I agree. The caliber is very, very unusual for a double rifle. But since I already had a 577/500 on the large side, and a 8mm Lebel on the small side, (with 8x57R, 9.3x74R, .375, 45-70 in the middle) a double rifle with a smaller 30 cal. cartridge, will fit nicely into my collection, and will be a lot of fun to play with.

As for the stock carving, I agree. I would have preferred a "plain stock" with some nice figured grain instead. But, I'll learn to like it. In my opinion, stock carving should be reserved for "happy" Schuetzen rifles, like found on my Burgsmuller 8.15x47R.





--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:26 PM)

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1130
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233876 - 09/08/13 09:21 PM

Hello Sville,

Yes, thank you. That's it! - Jean Falla,

A reference on "Littlegun.be" indicates:

"...Jean FALLA was a manufacturer of weapons and manufacturer of barrels in Liege Street New Bonne, 35. He used in particular the trade mark and engraved with the serrated roller “head of eagle - Acier comprimé CAP JF” It acted of a steel high strength allowing the manufacture of extra-light barrels..."





And, thank you Kuduae,

for this information,

"...That mark is indeed the mark of the barrel maker Jean Falla for Cockerill compressed steel. ...I found this ad in the Gadisseur & Druart book..."

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:26 PM)

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
      #233877 - 09/08/13 10:07 PM

This double rifle is even better than I thought! When I typed the post above I had only the crappy auction photos to look at. Regarding the "light" .303 Savage chambering: elsewhere on this forum there is a thread by a member, contemplating to have a double rifle in .30-30 built by Chapuis, iirc. The only advantage over this Belgian dr would be the ready availability of factory fodder. The French maker will be pressed hard to achieve the quality and handling of this humble Belgian rifle. And, having such a special order rifle made will set the future owner back several times as much as buckstix paid for this rifle.
IMHO the distracting stock carving was custom added after the rifle arrived in America, as it shows a caribou. Stock carvings were rarely done in Liege. A cheekpiece is completely unnecessary on such a light rifle. Personally, I have no use for cheekpieces anyhow, as my face touches only an area about one inch wide on the comb, except on very thick cheekpieces like those on Schützenrifle stocks, clumsy looking on a hunting gun.
Jean Falla, Liege, was a barrelmaker who used several marks to denote different steels they used. The eagle's head denoted compressed steel by the Belgian Cockerill steelworks near Liege. Here is an ad from the interwar years:


--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:27 PM)

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A10ACN
.300 member


Reged: 30/01/05
Posts: 198
Loc: USA
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
      #233888 - 10/08/13 12:53 AM

First- nice rifle! GREAT buy! Enjoy!

Second- nothing wrong with 303 Sav. Nice cartridge. Don't make it what it ain't (303 Brit). With all the calibers you own, I think you will be quite pleased with this- if the rifle shoots, which there is no indication it will not, thanks to quality construction, fine barrels, and great condition.

Third- Enjoy!

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233908 - 10/08/13 04:55 AM

Nordmann:
Quote:

So your saying I can't have my own opinion now?
It's certainly not perfect, hence the price!


Bargains are possible, even on internet auctions. You must only know more about guns than the seller and much more than the fools that look for "names" only. I reposted a lesser bargain than Buckstix' here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=233903&an=0&page=0#Post233903

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Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
      #233909 - 10/08/13 05:21 AM

kuduae...I do buy guns off the net or at auctions almost every week, but I am not in the habit of advertising how much I paid for them on a forum, because that would defeat the object of business. I tend to look for names first, then condition, then caliber, then price, whats included in the package and finally the location. normally in that order.

So if that makes me a fool by your reckoning I'm not too bothered!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233912 - 10/08/13 06:03 AM

Nordmann, apparently you are acting as a dealer. I am no dealer, so I have no object of business to disturb. If you look for "names" first, that may be ok for your business, but you will miss many unsung masters, especially Suhl ones. Or, have you ever looked for Schmidt & Habermann, Christoph Friedrich Triebel, Edgar Strempel or Stephan Heym? These were some of the real gunmakers who made the guns bearing more famous names like Brenneke, Barella and Nagel & Menz.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
      #233913 - 10/08/13 06:08 AM


Nordmann

"but I am not in the habit of advertising how much I paid for them on a forum, because that would defeat the object of business. "

1 person, in Germany, posting a post on a forum from Australia.

IF he was to sell it, a PUBLIC record already exists on what he paid for it and not only that, a record that is much more likely to be found by a buyer than what he posts on here.

So I really don't think it is an issue for him.

For you, yes, I understand but the Public auction site
still exists for any guns you purchased.

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Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
      #233914 - 10/08/13 06:10 AM

Kuduae, they are "off my piste" sorry, but each to his own, and there are certainly some fabulous German /European guns, and the best of all in my arena today are Hartmann & Weiss. Only German gun I currently own is a model 87 Mauser carbine in 9.5 x 60 R black powder. I think, from what you say, you will appreciate that.

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...l-mauser-638869

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233920 - 10/08/13 06:53 AM

Quote:

Only German gun I currently own is a model 87 Mauser carbine in 9.5 x 60 R black powder. I think, from what you say, you will appreciate that.

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...l-mauser-638869



Wow! That is a masterpiece! I would love to see and handle that rifle. Marvelous!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Nordmann
.300 member


Reged: 05/07/13
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Loc: Denmark
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233921 - 10/08/13 06:56 AM

500Nitro

Usually buying directly for a client, on their instructions in exchange for a fee, so not to resell retail.

But ..you are right, buying anything at auction is a problem because the prices become common knowledge.

However it doesn't affect some things

Last month, at an auction at Sotheby's in London, a rare Nasrid "ear dagger" from fifteenth century Spain sold for Au3.7 million ($6million). It was reportedly bought by the Doha Museum of Islamic Art. The weapon, named for the two circular "ears" on its handle, fetched the top price during London's Islamic Art Week. Yet six months earlier, the dagger was sold for a far more modest price of e1/4210,000 ($290,000) at Czerny's auction house in Italy.

Nice profit in 6 months $5,710,000! Especially when it was said to be a FAKE!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233922 - 10/08/13 06:58 AM


Yes, I remember the thread on that dagger.

Well, you know auctions, it's for the buyer to do the research. You buy it, your problem !!!

(Although I gather that this rule doesn't apply to art !)

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
      #233923 - 10/08/13 07:01 AM

Hi Roscoe, Yep that Mauser is fab. Best one in existence! And even better in the hand than in the photo.
Will mail you when I get the full documentation/factory letters from H&H on the .375. Been running around. Best .James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233930 - 10/08/13 07:33 AM


Nordmann

Here is an example.

To you, that Mauser is fab, to be it is an over embellished
bolt action, even if it is very finely made and rare.

On the other hand, I can, and do, appreciate all of the
nice H&H's et al you post.

As someone at H&H said once, rarity does not equate to "best" and I'll add doesn't always equate to value,
even if they are interesting.

To some, the MS posted above or the Belgian Boxlock
are master pieces to people who like that type of firearm.

It's all relative.

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Nordmann
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Reged: 05/07/13
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Loc: Denmark
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233931 - 10/08/13 07:57 AM

500Nitro ...what are you talking about..you lost me ...best is best my friend. Your explanation is wasted on me!

You have Best, Worst and everything in between!

That 87 Mauser is FABULOUS, without doubt the best example in existence and has a provenance to match, but apparently according to you I am the only person who believes that!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
      #233932 - 10/08/13 08:03 AM


To you (and Curl) it might be fabulous, best and everything else but that doesn't mean I like it.

And as I said before, a personal opinion can be different
from a critique !!!

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1779
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
      #233933 - 10/08/13 08:53 AM

500Nitro, sorry, but you are wrong here. All my guns are registered, but only as to type, make, caliber and serial number. So I have no problem telling serial numbers. Prices I paid are not registered. Further, the registration files are not "public". Only licensing authorities, police, state attornies and judges have access. As I have no financial or business interests I feel free to publish prices I paid too. F.i. in 1992 I paid the big sum of Deutsche Mark 168.- (about $ 110.-) for some "noble junk", a sidelock 12 bore side by side in really sorry state, made by Purdey, London in 1883, but that's another story.

As a German upgrade German gun dealer once said: "each gun is worth as much as the next guy who thinks, he cannot live without it, is willing to pay."

Nordmann, that M87 Mauser leaves me cold. IMHO it is simply an overdecorated, technically common gun. It reminds me of several gold, silver and gem sprinkled rifles seen at IWAs in recent years. These were made by/for Blaser on common R93 actions for sale to Worthy Oriental Gentlemen. (BTW, I grow pimples from touching Blaser guns.) I am more interested in aspects that make a gun safe, reliable, elegant, easy handling, durable and accurate. Engraving may be the frosting on the cake, but only if not overdone.

Regardless of "value" I would like to own and use that "noname" FAUL Belgian double rifle, the objective of this thread Buckstix bought inadvertedly, more than that M87, despite the fact that the .303 Savage is marginal at best for legal "big game" use here in Germany (2000 joule minimum energy at 100 meters).

To each his own!(originally Friedrich II, king of Prussia) or "de gustibus non est disputandum" (Latin: No use discussing taste)

Edited by kuduae (10/08/13 09:53 AM)

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