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Grenadier
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What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game
      #221721 - 16/12/12 08:03 AM

Parameters:
  • Cartridge must be rimmed or flanged
  • Cartridge must be available in factory loaded ammo
  • Target species include deer, black bear, elk, feral hogs. Assumption is made that if stalked within a reasonable range the rifle would also be fine for antelope, sheep, and goats.
  • Exotics in Texas may be on the target list but African dangerous game is not
  • The rifle will not be used for brown, grizzly, or polar bears
  • Action is not suitable for the higher pressure cartridges like 7x65R and .303 British - desire to stay well below 50,000psi CIP (piezo)
  • Bore diameter will be .429 or smaller, therefore .45-70 is out
    Using the parameters above, which lower pressure cartridge would you choose for a light double rifle for North American big game? After you choose a cartridge I would like to hear what bullet weight you would suggest the rifle be regulated for.
    You may choose only one
    .25-35 (6.5x52R
    7x30 Waters
    .30-30
    .32-40
    .357 Max (will also shoot .357 Mag)
    .38-55
    .405 Win
    .44 Rem Mag
    Other - Please specify and explain


    Votes accepted from (16/12/12 08:03 AM) to (No end specified)
    View the results of this poll



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    • Caprivi
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Grenadier]
          #221725 - 16/12/12 08:38 AM

    I have often thought one of those relatively cheap spanish folding .410 hammer guns would make up into a fun 30/30 or 38/55. Would be a fun eastern/river bottom/bush country/hog rifle

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    albertan
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Caprivi]
          #221729 - 16/12/12 09:35 AM

    Feral hogs in my part of the woods hit 450 pounds. Elk are tough as well. As Hornady makes 9.3x74 mm ammunition, I would use that as my medium in a double rifle. Revolver rounds such as the .357 are not elk rounds.

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    Ash
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: albertan]
          #221731 - 16/12/12 09:48 AM

    I voted .405 Winnie, can be loaded pretty strong and is an American round, so suits American game in a probably American rifle.
    No personal experience with the cartridge though.

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    MikeRowe
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Ash]
          #221736 - 16/12/12 12:09 PM

    What about the 6.5X53R? - there's a lot of excellent bullets available, if you want to use something other than one of the best game killers of all time, the 156 to 160 grain round nose.

    Buffalo Arms offers loaded ammunition.

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    DarylS
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: MikeRowe]
          #221738 - 16/12/12 12:25 PM

    Considering the criteria, I thought the 225gr. SP and 235gr. Speer, driven at 2,200fps would work wonderfully, but voted before thinking it through. To achieve those ballistics, the pressure would have to be very close to 60,000psi, not good for a double rifle.

    I think the .405 is needlessly powerful and the big bears, big moose et'al' could be added to the bag, along with most of Africa's game.

    Thus for North America, for me, a 7x65R would be better then the rest - even when loaded down to reasonable pressure for a double, it will drive 160gr. at 2,500fps and handle all the game listed - and more. Unfortunately, the factory loads might be too much for a DR, thus the .303 British would be an excellent choice.

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    Daryl


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    Matabele
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: DarylS]
          #221749 - 16/12/12 06:35 PM

    While I really like the idea of a dainty double in 6.5x52R, IMO I think it's a little light for your intended quarry. I voted for the the 30-30, and if it were me would regulate it for the 170gr bullet. Sounds like an intruiging project, please keep us updated on its progress.

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    Mike_Bailey
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Matabele]
          #221757 - 16/12/12 11:13 PM

    FYI, AYA will make you a 20 bore shotgun in class No.2 or No.1 with a set of .44 Rem Mag barrels, made and regulated for said gun in Belgium, just a thought, best

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    bakposten
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Mike_Bailey]
          #221759 - 16/12/12 11:59 PM

    The 7*57r has a maximum Piezo CIP at 49313 psi. You can then get a 156 grains bullet travelling at 2481 fps at 44396psi. And the 6,5*57r at 47862 psi max. Both more than good enough on Norwegian moose.

    Edited by bakposten (17/12/12 12:01 AM)

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    bonanza
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: bakposten]
          #221762 - 17/12/12 02:29 AM

    I have a light double in .35 WCF which is pretty ideal.

    Think of it as a 35 Whelen for a double rifle, similar ballistics but lower velocity.

    Can be formed from 30-40 Krag brass, it's readily available and very good bullet selection.

    Max CIP is 44K. My loads (250 @ 2100 fps) run about 40K

    The 200 grain projectiles can be shot a little faster, about 2400 fps.

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    Grenadier
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: bonanza]
          #221771 - 17/12/12 06:34 AM

    Okay, so you can get a better idea of where I am coming from, here is what I am looking at. These are CIP standards measured with the piezo method. I used CIP piezo because it was the only pressure standard that I could find for ALL of them and I wanted to use the same measure for a comparison. The rifle is to be light in weight and the very long .30 FL will made the rifle weigh too much. The various x57mm cartridges and the 9.3x74R are too close to my pressure limit. An exception here is the 7x30 Waters because it is a short and very narrow cartridge.

    ****** Desireable Pressure *******
    34k psi - piezo: .32-40
    35k psi - piezo: .38-55
    36k psi - piezo: 6.5x52R
    36k psi - piezo: .405 WCF
    41k psi - piezo: .44 Rem Mag
    44k psi - piezo: .25-35
    44k psi - piezo: .35 WCF (Per bonanza)
    44k psi - piezo: .357 Mag
    45k psi - piezo: .357 Max
    46k psi - piezo: .30-30
    46k psi - piezo: .30 Fl.Mag. (Not suitable because it is a very long cartridge)

    ****** Marginal Pressure ******
    48k psi - piezo: 6.5x57R
    48k psi - piezo: 8x57 JRS
    49k psi - piezo: 7-30 Waters (suitable because it is a short narrow cartridge)
    49k psi - piezo: 7x57R
    49k psi - piezo: 9.3x74R

    ****** Undesireable Pressure ******
    51k psi - piezo: .444 Marlin
    53k psi - piezo: .303 Brit
    55k psi - piezo: 7x65R
    57k psi - piezo: 7.62x54R
    59k psi - piezo: .30 R Blaser

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    DarylS
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Grenadier]
          #221815 - 18/12/12 02:54 AM

    Well, if a 255gr. at 1,850fps, or 220gr. at 1,950 (my very effective moose load) is good enough, then I'd simply go with the .38/55.

    If the big bears were on the list, then the .405 would get the nod even though it is way overgunned for the lesser species, ihmo.

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    Daryl


    "a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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    szihn
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: DarylS]
          #221826 - 18/12/12 06:17 AM

    You should include the 303 British, the 30-40 Krag, the 7.62X54R and the 348 Winchester to the list.

    Edited by szihn (18/12/12 06:18 AM)

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    Sauercollector
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Grenadier]
          #221855 - 18/12/12 12:44 PM

    Given your noted criteria, and if it were up to me, I would look only at the 7x57R and regulate for 175 gr bullets. This bullet wt. is a bit heavy in the 7x57r but this bullet wt will give good penetration and provide good knock down power for medium game up to Elk. And if you pursue black bear so much the better to use a heavier bullet. I like the .444 marlin (and don't see it on your list)as well but this cartridge maybe a bit our of the realm of possibilities being that the 45-70 was eliminated from contention right off the mark. J.Stephens

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    NitroXAdministrator
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Sauercollector]
          #221868 - 18/12/12 02:55 PM

    Probably the most versatile and most popular medium calibre today is the 9.3x74R and pretty good for everything in NA.

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    tinker
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: NitroX]
          #221874 - 18/12/12 03:30 PM

    Of the listed cartridges I'd choose the 38-55

    As noted above, the 6.5x53r is a honey with the 160gr bullets.
    Low pressure and amazing penetration with ultra-high B.C.
    WDM Bell took over 1000 elephant with the little 6.5 before he switched to the 7mm

    I would love a light slim little double rifle in 6.5x53r







    Cheers
    Tinker

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    "It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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    DarylS
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: tinker]
          #221897 - 19/12/12 03:56 AM

    Steve brings up a good point, with the .30/40 Krag. as it is an excellent round using slighly smaller bullets than a typical .303. Couple years ago, I barreled up a P-14 for a friend using a .303 Reamer with a .300" pilot. This was so he could use 220gr. Hornady RN's accurately. After using the 220's for a year and from testing, he found he preferred 150gr. Interbond Hornady's as they shot well under an inch and ran 2,750fps for him.
    This last fall, he shot his moose, whitetail buck, muley buck and 'royal' elk with the same 150gr. Interbond load. The longest shot was on the whitetail buck at just over 400yards - laser ranged by his wife (she used her .358Winchester Browning lever gun for her deer).
    He obtained incredible penetration and 90%+ weight retention on those bullets that stayed inside- all balled up. The exits barely made it out the hide with totally destroyed lungs and the heart as well - when hit. He's really 'stuck' on that bullet for all game in that chambering.

    The rim size and pressure generated is what produces the breech thrust and resultant stress on the action itself when accompanied with the actual taper in the case.

    Thus, with larger diameter rims & same normal case taper at the same pressure there is more 'force' being applied to the action itself by the larger rim:
    Same pressure, same diameter, similar taper, same action stress.
    Thus, loaded to the same pressure, the .38/55 would produce less action stress than any of the others, due to it's rim diameter and minimal taper in comparison to the other rounds.

    The ctgs. well over a century's use in lever and the weaker single shot actions proves it's not a chamber sticker. Too - easily obtained .30/30 brass or .375 Winchester brass which is slighlty stronger. I use all three of these chamber designated brass in my lever action .375 Winchester- without problem.

    6.5x53R Dutch Mann.== .526"
    7x57R================ .521"
    .30/30/.38/55Ballard= .506"
    .303 British========= .540"
    .30/40 Krag========== .545"
    .444 Marlin========== .514"
    9.3x74R============== .512"
    .348 & .45/70======== .605"
    .35 Win.&.405 Win==== .543"

    All pretty close, except for the .348/.45/70 size with the .348 having the largest base diameter at about .550" and the .45/70 at .500".
    These measurements are taken from books. If you actually measure brass, you will find some minor differences, make to make.

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    Daryl


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    hoosier
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: DarylS]
          #222091 - 21/12/12 12:19 PM

    38-55 with 255 Gr. cast or jacketed has handled everything I have ask of it quite well.

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    Matabele
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: hoosier]
          #222195 - 22/12/12 05:31 PM

    What are your thoughts Grenadier, have you decided on a calibre? Please share some details on the build, sounds interesting!

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    Grenadier
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Matabele]
          #222200 - 23/12/12 01:27 AM

    The favorite choices, both on this site and AR, are .405, .30-30, and 38-55, in that order. On AR there are several people who seem to want to press for the 9.3x74R. The 9.3x74R operates at more pressure than the above three cartridges and requires longer chambers than any of them. I tried to explain that building the rifle in 9.3x74R will result in a rifle at least 1/2 lb heavier. But the long 9.3mm apparently has some die hard fans.

    I am contemplating a true custom rifle with receiver and barrels built to the specific caliber. Many companies use one or two frames to build guns of several calibers. The best example that comes to mind is a .410, 28ga, and 20ga all built on a 20ga sized action. Doing so results in a perfectly sized 20ga, an over sized heavy 28ga, and a bulky .410 with ponderous chambers and barrels. The rifle I am considering would be perfectly sized for the caliber - action, chambers, and barrels.

    The .30-30 would give me a handier, lighter rifle than the .405, and with the large selection of standard .308 bullets available it would seem more versatile. But it would be regulated for a single factory load and I could probably only get a few different .308 bullets to regulate.

    The .405 is tempting because of the additional power. It could, and would, be built smaller and lighter than a 9.3x74R but then there is the issue of recoil in a light rifle.

    The .38-55 seems like it might be the best compromise between the .30-30 and .405. The rifle would be both light and powerful (for the intended purpose). But I am wondering about the bore. A true .38-55 bore is a few thousandths larger than the standard .375 bore. If the rifle had a standard .375 bore could I shoot .38-55 ammunition in it without trouble? If the answer to that is "yes" then that would be a big plus.

    I have a couple of rifles in mind. One has a stronger action than the other but that also makes it a little bit heavier for caliber. Handling would be a little different between the two. I would use the less strong action (I don't want to say weaker because it isn't weak) for the .405 to keep it light for caliber and handy. I would use the stronger action for anything smaller. The rifle would be a SxS with action made of steel. That would make for a .405 rifle of ~7lbs and a ~6.5lb rifle in something like .30-30 or .38-55.

    So, as you can see, I am still contemplating.

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    DarylS
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Grenadier]
          #222202 - 23/12/12 02:02 AM

    If the .38/55 factory ammo would chamber without being to tight on the necks, it would shoot just fine.

    The size difference, possibly raising pressures due to the moderate to fast burning powder used in the case, would be outweighed due to the very low pressures the ctg. is loaded to - afterall, factory ammo is still loaded, in the States, to BP ballistics, ie: about 1,320fps with a 255gr. bullet. Measuring a factory 255gr.might be interesting. Quite possibly, they could be only .376" in which case, no contest - no difference for the gun to recognize?

    I'd make it true .375" groove diameter and probably regulate it to use the most excellent 225gr. Hornady SP and 235gr Speer. The 220gr. Flat point Hornady that worked so well on moose for me, would also be a contender for all-round bullet.

    Of course a nice 255gr. FP & HP cast would also be a good bullet to regulated for, for everything.

    Many options in that calibre. Increasing the size to .377" would be a mistake, I think, although .375" bullets would still shoot well, I'm sure. .004" undersized bullets shoot very well in my 9.3x57.

    --------------------
    Daryl


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    DUGABOY1
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: NitroX]
          #223125 - 08/01/13 11:14 AM

    Quote:

    Probably the most versatile and most popular medium calibre today is the 9.3x74R and pretty good for everything in NA.



    ..........................................Absolutely! It is versatile and is under 50K PSI chamber pressure. I like it enough that I own two double rifles so chambered, and it have become my all around double for North America, and a back-up for my 470NE double for traveling! The 9.3X74R would and has already been my pick!

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    ..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
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    Sasquatch
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: DUGABOY1]
          #223394 - 11/01/13 12:12 PM

    Well having read the whole topic now and based on what I have seen used on North American game, including black bear, deer, caribou, sheep, elk, moose and big bears........... the 9.3x74R would be my pick. I have had a chance to play with a couple of them owned by hunters I guided and they are quite light and handy when compared to many of the bigger DR's. Recoil is a piece of cake.
    I would love to own one.

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    AZDAVE
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: Sasquatch]
          #223567 - 14/01/13 02:17 AM

    How about 40/65, starline has brass ready or can be made from 45/70. Can push a 400gr hard cast at 18-1900 fps within your pressure limitations. I have always wanted to build a 40/50 straight sharps in a light little double and the brass can be made from 30/40 Krag.

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    TRX
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    Re: What's the best light double rifle cartridge for NA big game [Re: DarylS]
          #225859 - 24/02/13 03:17 AM

    Quote:

    6.5x53R Dutch Mann.== .526"



    The 6.5x53R Mannlicher is a rare and somewhat expensive[1] cartridge. I liked the specification, but I wanted something cheaper, so I used .303 British brass run into a .256 Mannlicher die, to created a 6.5x54 rimmed. Since the rifle I was using already had a bolt and magazine set up for .303 it was a reasonable solution.

    The .256 pushes a 160 grain 6.5mm bullet at a modest 2150 fps. Wimpy by modern standards, but I liked the ballistics of the 6.5mm bullet and didn't need the recoil of a .260 Remington or 6.5 Grendel just to punch holes in paper.



    [1] well, probably not by double rifle standards...

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