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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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KCrow
.224 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 5
Loc: NW
Introduction
      #156831 - 18/03/10 08:20 AM

Hello all, I'm new here and thought I'd say hi. Longtime double shotgun guy who is just getting into DRs. Current project is a Boss .410 made in 1874 (so says Boss, although their records are sorely lacking for this particular rifle.) Barrel-wise, it has Henry's Patent rifling which is still pretty damn crisp with some pitting, but not bad. The exterior is rough enough that I won't mind hunting with it. The locks are fantastic, as might be expected. My 'smith says the barrels are in good shape despite the cosmetics--so I'm am currently attempting to work up a BP load for it. Without further info from Boss as to what they used to regulated it, does anyone have a suggestion for a starting point regarding bullet weight and powder charge? Bore is .410, groove is .429, or close--with seven lands/grooves, it's tough for me to measure. I have cerro casts of the chambers and first couple inches of bore. I will likely use all-brass .410 cases trimmed to 2.22", since that works best dimensionally, unless someone has a strong opinion otherwise. I would prefer not to paper patch, but will if it's the only way to get hunting accuracy.

Took a bit of doing to get registered, but I'm glad to be here.







Edited by CptCurl (20/03/10 10:04 PM)

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alexbeer
.333 member


Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Introduction [Re: KCrow]
      #156834 - 18/03/10 08:48 AM

Welcome to the forum KCrow, great to heve you here.

I can't help you with any data for your Boss, but what a beautiful little double. The smaller rifles, particullarly the hammer rifles, are something special. Nice rifle. Thanks for posting it.

I hope you will find the info you are after, and I'm sure, with the knowlage that is floating around here on this site, you will find it.

Best regards

Alex

alexbeer.com

--------------------

Details matter!

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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Introduction [Re: alexbeer]
      #156836 - 18/03/10 09:01 AM

KCrow,

Greetings from the east side of the state.

You have definitely found the right forum to help you with your new find.

Thus far I'm not a BP guy but there are plenty of folks here that are.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Introduction [Re: Buchsemann]
      #156988 - 20/03/10 06:31 PM

You might consider useing 9.3X74 brass in that beauty. IIRC the rim and base is the same. But check and see. It could be as simple as 'blowing it out and trimming. If it works then it'd be much better brass than S/G stuff.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Introduction [Re: AkMike]
      #156996 - 20/03/10 10:09 PM

KCrow,

Welcome aboard!

You have a nice and very interesting double rifle there. Has Boss identified what cartridge it is chambered for? You definitely will want to start out with chamber casts before doing anything. Get some Cerrosafe from Brownells and cast the chambers along with the first couple inches of each barrel. You will get all relevant dimensions from these casts, and if you need custom dies RCBS will use the casts to establish dimensions.

Once you know what cartridge it is or what case to use for brass, and once you have dies that are suitable, it should be fairly easy to work out a load.

But again, your first step will be casting the chambers and leade.

Good luck,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8824
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Introduction [Re: CptCurl]
      #157009 - 21/03/10 02:43 AM

if the magtech .410 brass case fits use it! it is good enough for any blackpowder and nitro for black load. in germany there was a family of cartridges based on .410 brass.
11,15x52R LK
11,15x60R Lk
11,15x65R LK

Lk means lancaster kugel(Bullet)

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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KCrow
.224 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 5
Loc: NW
Re: Introduction [Re: CptCurl]
      #157067 - 21/03/10 10:22 PM

Quote:

KCrow,

Has Boss identified what cartridge it is chambered for? You definitely will want to start out with chamber casts before doing anything.
Curl



Boss has very limited records for this rifle, their only listing says it's a .410 made in 1874. I did a chamber cast and it definitely looks like .410 brass trimmed to 2.22 will be the closest fit. .444 Marlin would also work. Thanks for your help!

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KCrow
.224 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 5
Loc: NW
Re: Introduction [Re: lancaster]
      #157068 - 21/03/10 10:24 PM

Quote:

if the magtech .410 brass case fits use it! it is good enough for any blackpowder and nitro for black load. in germany there was a family of cartridges based on .410 brass.
11,15x52R LK
11,15x60R Lk
11,15x65R LK

Lk means lancaster kugel(Bullet)




Interesting! Are those BP cartridges or nitro?

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8824
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Introduction [Re: KCrow]
      #157070 - 21/03/10 11:24 PM

yes, this were all blackpowder cartridges, but around the turn of the last century also nitro for black loads exist. it was a very early development, I believe around 1870. the cartridges became obsolete in germany before WW 1 but may found sometimes in german catalogues till 1939.
will made pics

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8824
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Introduction [Re: lancaster]
      #157092 - 22/03/10 06:09 AM

like paper shotshell's shotgun brass will vary in the measurement's. more than rifle brass. the case's I found have all the No. 36 (ga) headstamp but common brass was marked 11x52 or 11,15x65. you known the designation was never realy standardize for this round. before the 9,3x72R was coming on the market this 3 cartridges were know as "Drilling" cartridge because they were used most time in Drilling's. in the old day everyone was knowing that the basic brass for this rounds was No.36 ga shotgun brass and load in this. the 52mm long case was the start and the brass was later lengthen to hold more blackpowder. in the old catalogue's they distinguish between lancaster(center fire shotgun shells ) and lefaucheux ( pinfire shotgun shells)and the 11,15mm was the Lancaster Kugel or LK. a lancaster case loaded with a bullet. in fact this round is older than the british express cartridge's, maybe made just before 1860.

RWS No.36 load as 11,15x52R base 11,71mm, rim 12,70mm, rim thickness1,33 mm
Eggestorf brass case base11,92mm, rim 13,24mm, rim th. 1,21mm
magtech brass base 11,95mm, rim 13,45mm, rim th.1,40mm






nitro for black loads; 1926 Steigleder catalogue
loaded with the common german powder No.5 from 2,3 gramm to 3 gramm, a copper jacket 17,5 gramm bullet giving 550 - 590 m/sec not bad for an old blackpowder round


the load for the 11,15x65r was 4,5 gramm BP, same as for the 9,3x82R
I shot 28 bore full rifled, 480 grains lead bullet over 90 grains FFG. the brass, thin like paper, is anealed but dont need resizing. I think magtech brass is very good if it fits the chamber.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (22/03/10 07:49 AM)

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pod
.224 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 22
Loc: n.c.
Re: Introduction [Re: KCrow]
      #157100 - 22/03/10 08:37 AM

kcrow: just a suggestion if you use 4-10 brass of modern manufacture check your flange thickness if it is thin it will cause a head space problem. i ran into this problem with my dr. of 1894 manufacture. older brass of the same maker was 6 th. thinner than the older causing misfires and a headspace problem came close to knocking it off face. just something to be aware of. regards

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pod
.224 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 22
Loc: n.c.
Re: Introduction [Re: KCrow]
      #157102 - 22/03/10 08:43 AM

kcrow:i meant the flange of the modern brass was thinner than older brass

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KCrow
.224 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 5
Loc: NW
Re: Introduction [Re: lancaster]
      #157114 - 22/03/10 11:40 AM

Quote:

like paper shotshell's shotgun brass will vary in the measurement's. more than rifle brass. the case's I found have all the No. 36 (ga) headstamp but common brass was marked 11x52 or 11,15x65. you known the designation was never realy standardize for this round. before the 9,3x72R was coming on the market this 3 cartridges were know as "Drilling" cartridge because they were used most time in Drilling's. in the old day everyone was knowing that the basic brass for this rounds was No.36 ga shotgun brass and load in this. the 52mm long case was the start and the brass was later lengthen to hold more blackpowder. in the old catalogue's they distinguish between lancaster(center fire shotgun shells ) and lefaucheux ( pinfire shotgun shells)and the 11,15mm was the Lancaster Kugel or LK. a lancaster case loaded with a bullet. in fact this round is older than the british express cartridge's, maybe made just before 1860.
the load for the 11,15x65r was 4,5 gramm BP, same as for the 9,3x82R
I shot 28 bore full rifled, 480 grains lead bullet over 90 grains FFG. the brass, thin like paper, is anealed but dont need resizing. I think magtech brass is very good if it fits the chamber.



Spectacular info, Lancaster! thank you for your help.

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KCrow
.224 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 5
Loc: NW
Re: Introduction [Re: pod]
      #157115 - 22/03/10 11:44 AM

Quote:

kcrow: just a suggestion if you use 4-10 brass of modern manufacture check your flange thickness if it is thin it will cause a head space problem. i ran into this problem with my dr. of 1894 manufacture. older brass of the same maker was 6 th. thinner than the older causing misfires and a headspace problem came close to knocking it off face. just something to be aware of. regards



Good heads up. I just ordered 410 brass--I'll check the rim thickness before proceeding further. Does anyone know if a .444 marlin trimmer will work with 410 brass? The length I need per the cerro cast is 2.22, and a 444 fits the bill nicely.

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