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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Merkel 141 or Chapuis UGEX [Re: hoser]
#149744 - 07/01/10 02:23 PM

Hoser-

Something I have neglected to ask so far --

What have you been shooting?
What rifles, what calibers, how much?
How is your appetite for recoil?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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hoser
.275 member

Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Re: Merkel 141 or Chapuis UGEX [Re: tinker]
#149750 - 07/01/10 02:49 PM

Mostly shotguns and pistols. Not too recoil sensitive with 12ga.

I've shot someones 9.3x74 years ago but it was a prewar and heavy. I kinda liked it! I'm not a glutton for punishment, but I'm pretty stocky so recoil doesn't bother me too much. I've shot a 356 Winchester lever gun too but sold it off.

Most of my life, it's been bird hunting and pistol shooting. So my rifle skills are limited and I'm under no illusion that I'm a distance shooter (which takes tons of practice). That's what lures me to the DR. It's a fairly close range proposition and I won't take long shots unless I practice more. So if I'm going to have shorter shots, it might as well be a cool gun!

I sent you a PM tinker.

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crkennedy1
.375 member

Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 501
Loc: Utah

Re: Merkel 141 or Chapuis UGEX [Re: hoser]
#149758 - 07/01/10 05:12 PM

For heavens sake - don't buy a French gun!

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING

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hoser
.275 member

Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Re: Merkel 141 or Chapuis UGEX [Re: crkennedy1]
#149759 - 07/01/10 05:19 PM

HA! The first scientific, analytical response so far!

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doubleriflejack
.333 member

Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#149827 - 08/01/10 06:21 AM

For over 40 years, I have hunted and shot moose, elk, and bear, as well as deer and a variety of other animals, in Montana and Oregon (no moose in Oregon, of course), shooting a variety of calibers through the years, including the good old .30-06, even using 220 grain bullets for elk/moose, and I learned a lot. Trust me, a .30-06 is inadequate for good clean kills on big elk/moose, while a 9.3x74r is vastly superior---quicker, cleaner kills. .416 Rigby is even better, as is the .450 nitro! My Dad loved the .30-06, being a WWII marine corp vet. He taught me that one can buy .30-06 ammo in every corner of the country, and that it is a wonderful caliber for deer sized animals, and it is, but not for large animals, based on my experiences!

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goshoot
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Reged: 20/03/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Rockville, MD- USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#149868 - 08/01/10 03:54 PM

You said this would be your only double. That is what I thought when I bought my first. If you are under retirement age and find you really like doubles you will find a way to scrape up enough to buy another one or trade up to a different one so don't stress on this decision too much. You may find you don't like doubles. Many who buy one find they are not for them especially doubles in the harder recoiling calibers. 9.3 is quite popular for this type of rifle but in a light double they do kick much harder than a 12 guage or 30-06 and ammo costs a lot more than for the 30-06.

A low pressure rimmed cartridge like the 9.3 is preferred for a double simply because extraction is theoretically easier and therefore more reliable. This may be important when hunting dangerous game but doesn't matter for anything in North America except brown or polar bears. I own doubles in both 9.3 and 30-06 (as well as .470) and like all three. If money is really tight the cheaper 30-06 ammo may help make the decision.

A 30-06 will kill any pig, a 9.3 just drops them a little faster-only however if you hit them, and hit them in the right place. The flinch you get from shooting a hard recoiling caliber you don't handle well can keep you from hitting them in the right place. Try to find someone with a 9.3,.375 H&H, OR .375 Ruger (not a .375 Win) that weighs the about same as the rifles you are considering and shoot one from several positions to see if the recoil is an issue for you. If so go with the 30-06. If it doesn't bother you get a 9.3. Good Luck!

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hoser
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Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: goshoot]
#149869 - 08/01/10 03:58 PM

I'm thinking the recoil in my wallet from shooting 9.3 would hurt more than 30-06 (kidding), but I like the idea of a common 30-06 caliber. Especially if I leave to a relative after I croak. They may not be quite the gun nut but would know where to get 30-06 ammo anywhere!

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hoser
.275 member

Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: sambarstalker]
#151013 - 18/01/10 10:39 AM

Quote:

To make it even more difficult for you. I should say I have a rifle in 9.3 x 74R and in .30/06. They are both double rifles. The first, in 9.3 x 74R is a Dumoulin handmade double and is the most perfectly balanced rifle I have ever had. You put it to your shoulder and it is aiming perfectly. You have no idea what a joy a well-balanced rifle is like. It is perfect pig medicine. It drops them on the spot. It is a side by side. If I never used any other rifle I would be happy.

I must tell you about 4 pigs I got, each brace with a left and a right, quartering away from me at about 45 degrees at a distance of about 50 yards. That sort of memorable hunting is a joy with a good DR. I doubt I would have been able to do that with a bolt action rifle.

The other rifle is a Baikal O/U. At least it is regulatable.

I cannot comment on California, as I have only been to LA airport. In Australia, projectiles and cases are easy to get for both calibres, and .30/06 is cheaper.

Cheers, sambarstalker

Are these two rounds different enough ballistically to (someday) own both calibers? I'd think you'd get one of these or the other and then jump up to something like a 470NE or other big thumper! Do many of you own both?

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#151020 - 18/01/10 11:18 AM

Just remember that even though you can `06 ammo anywhere only 1 load will work in a DR. The others won't group well probably.

the 9.3 is similar to a 375 H&H, much bigger than an `06. The 470 is alot more than those 2.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: AkMike]
#151031 - 18/01/10 02:46 PM

If it must be between the two cartridges you mentioned, I humbly suggest you buy the 9.3x74r and order it with a second pair of 30-06 barrels at a fraction of the cost of a second rifle. Then you've got all bases covered.

--------------------
~

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sambarstalker
.224 member

Reged: 07/12/09
Posts: 7
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: Grenadier]
#151056 - 18/01/10 11:31 PM

G´day Hoser,

I do have other bigger calibres (.505 Gibbs and .500/465 H&H), but I didn´t feel they were germane to the discussion. I am thinking about a .577. I bought the Baikal because it was cheap (#AU950 if I remember correctly)

Cheers, sambarstalker

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srose
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Reged: 30/09/05
Posts: 139
Loc: North Carolina

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: Grenadier]
#151063 - 19/01/10 01:12 AM

I think this is the best idea yet. Go ahead and add a set of 28 ga or 20 ga barrels to it also. Demas (Verny Carron) might do this for you. Talk with Ken Bush, he can set you up. Take your time in making up your mind on what you really want. I think we have all at one time or another bought something we ended up not being happy with because we thought we had to have it right now.

Sam

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Grenadier
.375 member

Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#151073 - 19/01/10 02:53 AM

hoser,

You must remember that a double rifle is regulated for a specific load. Sometimes your double might shoot other loads satisfactorily, but you can't just chamber any old load and "sight it in" like you can with a bolt action rifle.

If you get a 9.3 then it is regulated to a specific load. If you have a second pair of barrels in .30-06 then those are regulated to a second, specific load. Now imagine a gun that shoots Norma's 9.3 caliber, 285gr Oryx bullets AND Federal's .308 caliber, 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. That's versatility.

I sent you a PM. Check your messages.

--------------------
~

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BwanaBob
.300 member

Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 178
Loc: Gold Coast, QLD, Australia

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#151237 - 20/01/10 03:53 PM

I have owned two 9.3x74R doubles - A chapuis and a Merkel and my vote is for the 9.3x74R over the .30/06 anyday. I am not saying the .30/06 isn't a great cartridge, but in a double the 9.3 is a far better choice and will kill almost anything that walks this planet.

The issue of extraction has already been covered but I don't think anyone has mentioned loading the double. When you drop two large rimmed rounds into an open double rifle, they just slide home with a satisfying "thunk" and then you close the action and you are in business.

With rimless rounds, like the .30/06, you have to push them home, over the extractor, which takes a fraction of a second longer and is one more area where a failure, malfunction or simply not pushing them all the way home, can cause a problem. Double rifles were originally designed for rimmed cases, it is as simple as that.

--------------------
"White men with their ridiculous civilization lie far from me. No longer need I be a slave to money" (W.D.M Bell)

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ozhunter
.400 member

Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: BwanaBob]
#151357 - 21/01/10 06:52 PM

9.3x74R any day of the week.

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hoser
.275 member

Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: ozhunter]
#151358 - 21/01/10 06:55 PM

That seems to be the general consensus!

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: ozhunter]
#151559 - 23/01/10 01:58 PM

Quote:

9.3x74R any day of the week.

Plus 1.

I would select the 9.3X74R over the 30-06 especially in a double rifle, but I would select the 9.3x74R, or the 9.3X62 rimless over the 30-06 for any rifle I was going to use in Africa, simply:

#1 because the caliber is legal in a lot of places for the big 5, and the 30-06 is not legal for anything larger than a Leopard of the big five in MOST places in Africa, and for none of them in many. None of the 30s are legal, nor up to the task.

#2 is the fact that the 30-06 is a rimless cartridge, and IMO is not suitable for a double rifle that may be used for anything that bites back. The tiny palls that are needed for extraction in the double rifle chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge makes them a liability in a double rifle.

#3 The 9.3 cartridges are simply better hunting cartridges for large animals than the 30-06.

This is my opinion only here, but an opinion that is shared by the majority of PHs, and game people in Africa! That fact alone is good enough endorcememt for me!

The 30-06 is a fine cartridge, but my advice is stick to bolt actions, and for it or any rimless cartridge, and leave the double rifles to use the rimmed NE rounds!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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jaz
.300 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#153430 - 12/02/10 12:07 PM

I also would take the 9.3. I have seen a Brown Bear's clock cleaned with an '06, but like former readers said, the 9.3 is rimmed and more powerful. Regarding recoil, an easy fix for a "light" made rifle is too add weight in the butt with some lead. Sometimes if the gun is scoped, it actually balances the rifle.
The 20 or 28 barrels would be a nice touch and as the old saying goes, "beware of the man who only uses one gun!"
John

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granhaven
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Reged: 30/12/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Denmark

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#153462 - 12/02/10 08:44 PM

When thinking about a double rifle, I find that hunting driven game, like wild boar, is the most important aspect thus the ability to make two or more fast shots is essential.

Therefore the ejectors or extractors play a role in making shot number 3 and 4, giving you the possibility to get the third and fourth boar on a driven hunt.

My father, who was several times skeet and trap champion of Denmark back in the 50'ties taught me to shoot duck's or pheasant with two shells in my left hand and reloading fast for a second doublet...

On a shotgun that is only possible with fast working ejectors and on a double rifle with Ejectors OR extractors but the brass MUST be with “Rand” like 7x65R, 7x57R, 30R Blaser, 8x57R, 9.3x74R and upwards.

The extractors I have seen in caliber 30-06 would have a little tap for extracting the brass so that you can remove the empty cartridge with your fingers by pulling the cartridge out, but it will not allow you to throw the cartridge out for fast reloading and a second go at the boars.
The cost of ammunition is only of interest for practice shooting, thus the idea of a second set of barrels in a shotgun caliber like 16 or 20 makes good sense as you can practice a few rounds of skeet every week with your double without breaking any budget.

Best regards, Peter Frost Hørlyck

Edited by granhaven (12/02/10 08:47 PM)

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: granhaven]
#153468 - 12/02/10 10:21 PM

Have you considered over under for your 9.3x74R or smaller

caliber DR? Personally I love the look of O/U in those

calibers. Hand load for sure; look into Heym O/U; consider

scoping such a nice rifle; and maybe a 7x57R as a top barrel

over the wonderful 9.3x74R lower.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
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Loc: United States

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: BigFiveJack]
#153472 - 12/02/10 11:13 PM

I agree with Granhaven.

The only experience I've had with rimless cartridges in a break action were with Valmet and Baikal .30-06 combination guns with extractors, but either one was "sluggish" in getting rid of the empty. Regardless of whether you NEED to get rid of the case fast, it was annoying.

7x57R were easy to flick out of the guns.

9.3x74R all the way.

Og Granhaven, nice vildsvin! Skittjakt!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: 9.3x57]
#153510 - 13/02/10 08:48 AM

Regarding the lead free aspect, I do not recommend using most momolithic bullets in a Chapuis, except for the North Fork Solids.

In the case of pigs I would use the cu point.

I had a conversation with the new owners of North Fork about the 9,3 and the Kalif lead ban and I suggested they make a Cup Point with a deeper hollow point, to make it an expanding bullet.

Even if they do not, you could deepen the Cup yourself and it should give more expansion.

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Sikahunter
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Reged: 05/02/09
Posts: 41
Loc: Delaplane, Va. U.S.A.

Re: Decision time: 30-06 or 9.3x74R? [Re: hoser]
#153606 - 14/02/10 03:18 AM

Hoser

I strongly suggest the 9.3 in a side by side configuration.

The flanged (rimmed) cartridge is a must in a double. Besides, it makes that very pleasant "thunk" as it drops into the chamber.

Out of about twenty doubles I currently own, the "nine-three" is my go to gun. It took me about 40 years of owning about a hundred doubles to finally figure out 1)side by side 2)rimmed cartridges 3)double triggers. Penetration is superb and I do not hesitate on shots up to 225-250 yards.

Just my $.02

Don

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hoser
.275 member

Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

Decision done! [Re: tinker]
#153608 - 14/02/10 03:27 AM

Thanks everyone. The 9.3x74R has won out! Here's my gun:

http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj76/hoser45/?action=view&current=forsale007.jpg

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Decision done! [Re: hoser]
#153654 - 14/02/10 01:32 PM

Hi hoser,

A beautiful D.R. all you have to do now is put a good quality scope on her and your complete.. Now honestly, how do you compare that beauty with a No.1 ...... No way possible....

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

--------------------

"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"

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