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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP?
#107537 - 16/06/08 07:39 PM

I'm posting this on behalf of a new member "Christopher" who was unable to post it himself.

From Christopher

Hello,

I will try to post some pictures of my DR Army and Navy .450.
Can you send it to the forum as I can't find the way to do this.
I would be pleased if somebody can give me some informations about this gun: manufacturing year, nitro or BP etc...
I tried factory load (A Square .450 NE sold with the gun)that where ok except sign of execive pressure.
I am still trying to find a good load but find it pretty hard: velocitie seems to be too low (around 1900 fps) and I have some bullets keyholing (480 woodleigh or hornady).

Anybody can help me?

The rifle twist seem rather long, about 1/20.

Thanks to everybody for help.

Chris.

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 4seventy]
#107539 - 16/06/08 07:50 PM

Chris,
To start with, welcome to the forums!

To post here just look up at the top right hand side of what I'm writing here and you'll see a REPLY button.
Just click that button and you can post, but you will need to log in first.

I'm sure our members will be able to help you both with information on your double and also on posting photos.

I would strongly advise NOT to shoot any more Nitro loads through that rifle untill you know what it proofed for though!

If you still have trouble posting on the forum just PM me again and I'll help you sort it out.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 4seventy]
#107541 - 16/06/08 08:30 PM

Chris,

Welcome aboard.

This sounds like you may have a black powder rifle that isn't suitable for nitro loads. 4seventy's advice is right on at this point.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: CptCurl]
#107568 - 17/06/08 12:37 AM

Look at the proof marks on the watertable of the reciever and the bottom of the barrels for the proof marks.
Here's what to look for.
https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: AkMike]
#107574 - 17/06/08 03:20 AM

Quote:

Look at the proof marks on the watertable of the reciever and the bottom of the barrels for the proof marks.
Here's what to look for.
https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

On an Army & Navy .450 DR, that link won't be of much help.

The marks on the flats indicating full, original nitro proof for a .450 Nitro Express would be:

Pre-1904: "Cordite 70 grs, 480 grs bullet max'm". There will be no Nitro Proof mark.

Post-1904: "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX". The letters "NP" will appear on the flats.

If one of the above doesn't appear, it's a Black Powder Express.

If the marks say "Cordite 52 - 365 MAX" and the letters "NP" appear, then it was proved for the Nitro for Black load, which would also mean that it's a Black Powder Express, the Nitro Proof mark being essentially meaningless in the case of the NfBs.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#107575 - 17/06/08 03:29 AM

.400,

I was told many years ago that tip off to whether a given double rifle is BP or Nitro is the front sight. Supposedly BP guns have front sights mounted directly on the rib, like shotgun sights, but Nitro rifles have ramps which raise the front sight above the level of the rib. Is this a useful distinction?

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: xausa]
#107579 - 17/06/08 04:03 AM

xausa:

Generally, yes, I've found that to be true, but there are exceptions of course. There are many late BPEs with front sight ramps, and some early full nitros with low ramps. The only reliable way to confirm original, full Nitro Express proof on the British guns are marks on the flats indicating the full Nitro Express load for the cartridge. Relying on anything else, including a Nitro Proof mark, can easily lead to use of incorrect ammo, and a damaged or blown gun.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#107581 - 17/06/08 05:44 AM

Thanks for answering.
I feel like I bought a BP rifle instead of a Nitro!
The only mark on the barrels flats is 450 Ex. I have some good pictures but I can't find the way to post them on the forum (anybody can help?).
The rifle is almost new, perfectly on face, with gorgerous woods. It has 26 inches barrels, full rib with one standing and one folding leaves, splinter forend.Serial number is 13082. Weight 9 pounds.
I bought it used from a gunsmith in Paris with 60 cartridges (A Square) .450 NE.
I tried these and accuracy was very good at 70 yards. But primers were too flat for my tast!
Do you think a BP rifle would have stand such loads?

I would be very pleased to share pictures with fellow DR lovers!

Chris

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Christopher]
#107582 - 17/06/08 06:15 AM

Quote:

Thanks for answering.
I feel like I bought a BP rifle instead of a Nitro!
The only mark on the barrels flats is 450 Ex.

That means it's black powder proof.

Quote:

The rifle is almost new, perfectly on face, with gorgerous woods. It has 26 inches barrels, full rib with one standing and one folding leaves, splinter forend.

A nice Army & Navy .450 BPE is very much worth having. It's a nice, useful cartridge. It just isn't a .450 Nitro Express. If you got it at a price commensurate with it being a BPE, then no harm is done.

Quote:

Serial number is 13082. Weight 9 pounds.

Definite confirmation that your rifle is a BPE. Your number 13082 is from Army & Navy's ledger volume 1, which was in use from 1890 to 1896 - before the .450 Nitro Express was introduced. Likewise the weight. An early .450 Nitro Express would be heavier than that.

Quote:

I bought it used from a gunsmith in Paris with 60 cartridges (A Square) .450 NE.
I tried these and accuracy was very good at 70 yards. But primers were too flat for my tast!
Do you think a BP rifle would have stand such loads?

Yikes! Sounds like the gunsmith didn't know very much. Never fire any ammunition that happens to come with an older double rifle like that until you're certain that it is appropriate for the rifle. Operating chamber pressure of the .450 Nitro Express is much, much higher than that of the .450 Black Powder Express cartridge that your rifle was proved for. Shooting Nitro Express ammunition in it is seriously unsafe, as well as abusive to the rifle. BTW, excessive pressure with A-Square ammunition isn't unusual.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Christopher]
#107587 - 17/06/08 08:36 AM

Chris,
Good to see you posting here!

You should find this link helps with posting photos.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#107602 - 17/06/08 07:26 PM

Thanks a lot for your keen advise.
I paid about 6K $ for the rifle. Do you think it was a fair price?
Do you know a good load for this BP cartridge?
I tried some reduced smokless load with bullets ranging from 405 to 480 gr without good success.

I will try to post pictures.

Best regards,

Chris

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sbs470
.333 member

Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Christopher]
#107608 - 17/06/08 10:28 PM

Christopher
If I was you I would pull those bullets torch the powder and drill holes in the bullets and make fishing sinkers.
I sent some photos to Alan Moon last year of a Tolley ????? which had 4" blown out of the right barrel and a full length split down the left one. This was achieved by its previous owner , A guy in Alaska,using solid bullets, nitro powder and a load supplied by the bullet maker. This rifle now lives in Wisconsin and is awaiting a new set of tubes.
Why not try 120 grns of black and a 365 grn lead bullet to see if it will regulate.
Plaese post some photos of the proof marks asap

good luck and safe shooting
sbs470

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JTOMLINSON
.300 member

Reged: 16/02/05
Posts: 188
Loc: York, England

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Christopher]
#107615 - 18/06/08 12:31 AM

Chris

Welcome to the NE forum, an excellent place to get sage advice as you will have seen by the posts above.

If you seek a BP or nitro for BP load for your particular rifle and it is a true 450 3 1/4" chamber then you may wish to contact David Little at Kynamco in Suffolk, England, they make the present range of Kynoch ammo and offer a 450 3 1/4£ for black powder rifles with 350 grain soft nosed bullet.

David regularly exports to France so you should have no great problem getting it.

Drop him an e-mail at kynamco@aol.com to enquire what he can offer and availability. You can mention to him that I suggested he may be able to help you in yuor quest.

good luck-

PS get rid of the A2 ammo, many problems exist with that brand, high pressure being just one of them

jonathan

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: sbs470]
#107624 - 18/06/08 05:46 AM

Thanks for your advise.
It's very kind of you to take care of a french beginner!

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
#107625 - 18/06/08 05:50 AM

Thanks a lot. I will try to contact your friend of kynamco.
As I bought a BP DR instead of a Nitro, I am now looking for a real nitro...
Best way to find one (with a fair price)?

Chris

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: 4seventy]
#107655 - 18/06/08 05:40 PM

Thanks for your great help!

As I am looking for a nitro DR, here are two opportunities for me to purchase:

- M.Thys best quality boxlock .470 NE, engraved by Ph.Griffnée (golden big five one each side of the action). 24 inches chopper lump barrels, 100% of blueing on the barrels and CCH on the action. Super accuracy (about the same hole from RB and LB at 60 m).Brand new, made 1985. Priced at 30K US$.

- Mahillon DR boxlock .475 N°2, 26 inches chopper lump barrels, splinter forend, extended tang at the comb,ejectors, grip cap for spare front sight, quarter rib, english style cheekpiece with silver butt. Bright bores, but 25% CCH reminding one the action, a few marks of handling on wood and well used blueing on barrels (the rifle has spent 8 years in Africa in the hands of a PH). Action perfectly one face. No idea about accuracy. Priced at 15K US$.

Both rifles without case.
What is your feeling?

Chris

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Bramble
.375 member

Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Christopher]
#107677 - 19/06/08 02:45 AM

I think that you should shop around and look at some of the London auctions. You are into London Gun money.
I can think of a H+H .470 Royal sidelock at the moment that might not make $30,000.

You have had your fingers slightly singed (although it sounds like a nice gun in its own right ). I would take your time.

Regards

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Bramble]
#107680 - 19/06/08 03:00 AM

Christopher-

The M. Thys sounds nice, can you post photos of it as well as the Mahillon?

Although Bramble makes the point that your price range plus some could get you into a brit rifle, the work of M.Thys is considered among the best, and I can imagine this Griffnée engraved example is spectacular.
If it is in the 'as new' condition you note, it sounds like a good price.

If the Mahillon really is tight on face and without mechanical issues the price for it sounds good too.

Let's see some photos!

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: Bramble]
#107684 - 19/06/08 07:22 AM

Bramble,
Your advise sounds good to me but I have no idea about the London market. I dream of a HH royal big bore! Do you have an idea about the possibilty of shipping a gun bought in England?

regards,

Chris

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Christopher
.224 member

Reged: 29/05/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Nancy, FRANCE

Re: Army Navy .450......Nitro or BP? [Re: tinker]
#107685 - 19/06/08 07:27 AM

Tinker,

I have some good pictures of both rifles but have'nt still find the way to post them! I'll work on it, I promise.
Thanks for your honest feelings.

regards,

Chris

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