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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: dale]
      #104422 - 07/05/08 07:12 AM

Today I got to shoot my double from the shoulder for the first time, and the sound and kick was there thats for sure.

On 25meters she crossed 15cm so i turned my homemade regulating bushings to use half of their capacity (0,3mm) and now they "only cross 12cm.
So my concern that shotgun barrels are to crossed seems right, but the barrels are floating so this could be a factor.
Now i have heated the front of the barrels and spread them 1mm, messuring with a couple of boresighters the barrels now cross about 6cm in 20m (before 18cm). Tomorrow i will give it a try ones more to see if they are about right, and if i will test it in a 100m range.




Quote:

Great looking job. Are you keeping a rough record of your time? Some fine looking machines as well.




Thanks, with my mistakes and all i think 150-200 hours. But now when the barrels are moved the blue is ruined, so it would have been faster and better if i made a monoblock.
But hey, i made it to learn and i did so i cant complain.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #104497 - 08/05/08 07:56 AM

Well didnt get to shoot it today, came home to late in the evening and it was about to get dark (my neighburs would probably want to sleep also).

But started fitting a couple of QR-bases so i could fit a scope to it to help me regulate it on 100m distance.



The bases got a groove cut in them to get as low as possible over the rib. They are initially made for a sauer 202 and was the only one in stock that i know how they look when i ordered them. If you look closely the are not streight cut bequarse the rings doesent hold them streight . I now now why recknagel mounts have i higher price.



A test to see how they look at the rifle. I dont know why i bother as it will be quite ugly with them, just another reason to by recknagel mounts.



This is how it looks with the seights and bases on. Disgard the large cylinders in the mussle they will soon be gone, i hope.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (09/01/09 11:23 PM)


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #104658 - 10/05/08 05:02 AM

Shot it yeasterday and it still crosses 60mm and now left is 60mm high, put in the boresighters and the beams hit accactly as the shots. Now i soldered the front of the ribs of and will fit a wedge between the shotgun barrels. Then i will fix it with the beams streight on target and solder it together.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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dale
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #104960 - 13/05/08 02:47 PM

Andreas,

We tried the ecentric cams once with a sauer and had the identical results as you. We ended up locking the cams back to center and then spreading the bbls. Fortunately, the spread wasn't so great and we were able to use the orgional rib. It can be a long process just don't get discouraged. :^)
dale


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: dale]
      #105340 - 17/05/08 05:31 AM

Quote:

Andreas,

We tried the ecentric cams once with a sauer and had the identical results as you. We ended up locking the cams back to center and then spreading the bbls. Fortunately, the spread wasn't so great and we were able to use the orgional rib. It can be a long process just don't get discouraged. :^)
dale




Were was you a month ago, nowing this could have spared me a lot of work. But to be honest i would have done it anyway, it just was as a damn good way to regulate.

But i invented a whole new way to do the job, i have applied for a patent so dont tell anyone.



Dont mind the corrosion in the barrels its cleaned out now.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (09/01/09 11:24 PM)


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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #105592 - 19/05/08 05:01 PM

Andreas,

I never considered saying anything because there was a great chance you could get it going even though we didn't. :^) Looks good, you got it whipped now.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #105626 - 20/05/08 01:26 AM

Shot it on my 25m gardenrange and now they are within 10mm from each other. That is standing from sticks and open sights with me pulling the triggers.

If i get the time i will mount a scope tonight and hit the range tommorow morning.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #105644 - 20/05/08 08:19 AM

She is gaining weight.



The old scope left a nasty smell when it got warm. But it works when you dont have a peace of streight 25mm pipe.




As usual its pitch dark when i get the time to work so the picture is quite bad, but it get you some idea of the finished result.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (09/01/09 11:25 PM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3520
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #105685 - 20/05/08 09:50 PM

Good stuff!

Looks like a fine job. Look forward to seeing better pictures when you get the chance.

I think we should phone-up Purdey and Hollands and tell them about your new barrel regulation method, now that the cat is out of the bag! They'll be so p!ssed-off they didn't think of it first!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #105895 - 23/05/08 07:56 AM

Shot it today and they are still 36cm crossed at 100m, but the scope didnt fall of at least.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106001 - 24/05/08 11:30 PM

Spread the barrels 0,1mm and they still cross 20cm but now they are back on the horizontal.
I will spred them about 0,15mm tonight and hopefully thats it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106154 - 27/05/08 06:27 AM

Now its starting to get there, the shots still cross but now only 20mm but they are 50mm of in hight. But this is from sticks on a 100m range so i will shoot it again and see if the results are tru or me that mess it up.

If the result is reproducable, should i leave it there or should i try to move them closer?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Nighthawk
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Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Belgium
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106184 - 27/05/08 08:31 PM

I think 20mm is allready very good, but you have to live with the result. Do you intend to do a lot of long range shooting with it?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: Nighthawk]
      #106194 - 28/05/08 12:14 AM

Quote:

I think 20mm is allready very good, but you have to live with the result. Do you intend to do a lot of long range shooting with it?




Well the rifle has the balance of a benchrest so......

My concern was that it crosses 20mm and not that they shoot parallell so it will spred more and more. But i still will shoot it again as i think i pulled the left barrel about 50mm left and a bit up.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106613 - 04/06/08 05:02 AM

Damn, the learning never stops.

Started of great but all the sudden the shots came 20cm apart.
I seems that when i cleaned and oiled the barrels after each shot it greatly affected the regulation. And now when i fire it and i didnt heat and solder them the need to oil the wasnt that big, so the shots came apart.

So back to the torch and start all over again.

And yeas i used a jag with a patch to clean out the oil but not sufficient apparently.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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dale
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
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Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106659 - 04/06/08 04:23 PM

Andreas,

i hate to say anythng as I usually end up stcking my foot in my mouth but here goes. We would shoot four and six shot groups and determine the average then make an adjustment. I would start with clean dry bbls and try to shoot the shots at a steady pace. Not rushng but not didlng around either. Dad would mark the shots with the spottng scope and mark them on a target at the bench then back at the shop we would measure the shots on the actual target. This last gun would always shoot one hole wth the right bbl. but the left group would always be larger. Still, it took us forever. :^)


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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: dale]
      #106677 - 04/06/08 09:24 PM

Andreas,
I would like to ad a little of my expereince.
A couple of points:
1- Shoot from off hand or at leat not resting the rifle directly. I found that what works for me is resting the back of my forward hand on an horizontal post as a rest.
2- Shoot at two targets, one for each barrel, so you know where each barret hit from aiming point.
3- You should try at least 3 right-left to know where it shots.

You need to know exactly how the rifle shot from a free recoiling position as when hunting.

Hope this helps.
Martin


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: beleg2]
      #106692 - 04/06/08 11:40 PM

Quote:

Andreas,
I would like to ad a little of my expereince.
A couple of points:
1- Shoot from off hand or at leat not resting the rifle directly. I found that what works for me is resting the back of my forward hand on an horizontal post as a rest.
2- Shoot at two targets, one for each barrel, so you know where each barret hit from aiming point.
3- You should try at least 3 right-left to know where it shots.

You need to know exactly how the rifle shot from a free recoiling position as when hunting.

Hope this helps.
Martin




I shoot from sticks only resting the rifle in my hands and on two targets but as the importer of the powder i shoosed are out of stock im short of round so i only shhot one from each barrel.
But when they get closer on the target i shoot two from each barrel. And then some for fun.

Quote:

Andreas,

i hate to say anythng as I usually end up stcking my foot in my mouth but here goes. We would shoot four and six shot groups and determine the average then make an adjustment. I would start with clean dry bbls and try to shoot the shots at a steady pace. Not rushng but not didlng around either. Dad would mark the shots with the spottng scope and mark them on a target at the bench then back at the shop we would measure the shots on the actual target. This last gun would always shoot one hole wth the right bbl. but the left group would always be larger. Still, it took us forever. :^)




As above but i was using my father (standing by the target) but started to question his math capability. But after two round from each barrel she starts to warm up so further shots wont do anything.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #106908 - 07/06/08 12:23 AM

Now this is what i got this far. The shots are at most 16cm apart vertical and 9cm horizontal.



Now the second pair of shots came a couple of minutes after the first one, but the right barrel has a tendancy to spread its shots vertical.
Its done so before, could it be that my hand beeing to small to get a good grip pulling my front trigger? Its realy hard to get the same grip every time and im not holding the pistol grip as one should at all.
Ofcourse i will shoot it again in a faster pace and perhaps closer also and remember still standing and shottie triggers.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (09/01/09 11:26 PM)


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #107026 - 09/06/08 04:03 AM

So now i shot it six times from 50m, the last two didnt even hit the sticker. They are the larger holes 20cm from bullseye at 8 and 11 clock



I will see if i can get the right barrel a little bet further down and to the left, but it was vindy so they are on me and not as the rifle is capable to.
But i tryed harder to hold it the same on the front trigger and it seem to work better now.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (09/01/09 11:27 PM)


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #107064 - 09/06/08 11:23 AM


The Merkel is an excellent choice for a donor gun, stong and lightweight for it's strength. I have shot alot of 400 grain cast bullets and also 300 Hollow points for hunting and some 350 grain flat points in my 45/70's. For hunting in North America you can't go wrong with any of them as long as you are not going for big bears. I load the 300 grain bullets and the 350's to 1500 to 1600 feet per second. This is a milder load than you said you were going to use but they do a good job on game and don't punish your shoulder too bad. You won't notice the recoil when you are hunting but shooting 60 to 80 rounds from a bench during regulation can soften up your shoulder over time.
It may not be proper to some peoples way of thinking but I put Pachmyr or Limbsaver recoil pads on all my rifles and shotguns. It really helps on the recoil and I appreciate that since I dis-located my shoulder deer hunting last year from a fall on the ice. Good luck with your project, you won't be sorry. Bob H.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108510 - 29/06/08 11:50 PM

Thanks, it is coming out quite well now. First three shots are in a 30mm circle now, but the fourth has a habit to fly off at least 10cm. Its almost as if something has come loose, and it has to cool down realy long time before shooting it again (20min isnt enough).

I got to chrono a couple shots today and they are about 1850f/s (1851 and 1849) so they are at the 550m/s i was looking for with a 400grs bullet.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Birdhunter50
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Posts: 815
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Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #108513 - 30/06/08 01:03 AM

Andreas,
My best advice to you would be to concern yourself with the horizontal spread first, before you worry about getting them together up and down. After you get them spaced the way you want them, then you can adjust them for up and down. You may also find that as you bring them together on the same horizontal plain, that they will spread slightly apart more. This is just natural and is a reaction to the way they are situated next to each other. I use the monoblock method and temporary spacers to get them on roughly on before I solder anything up. Some of my best groups were shot using aluminum temporary spacers and hose clamps!
In order to do it this way you need to make up some temporary bolt-on sights. The whole mess looks like hell while you are doing this. Friends have had great laughs at my expense when I show up to do preliminary sight-ins with the gun rigged up this way. But they usually shut up when they see the results. I shoot most of my shots sitting down at a bench but I hold the forend the same way as I would when hunting. I rest my forarm on a sandbag but let the rifle freely recoil just like it would if I were standing up.
Everything you do to the gun or it's barrels will effect the way it shoots! I once regulated a rifle with the old shotgun wood on it, which included the original splinter forend. I got it shooting great, then I restocked it along with a new beavertail forend. That was enough to throw the regulation WAY off! It limited the rotation around the center of gravity a lot more.
I usually shoot two rights and two lefts, then open the gun and let it cool while I go down and mark the target. I have used two targets before, one for the right barrel and one for the left, but I found out I like to have them all on the same target as a referrence so that I can refer back to it when I do the adjusting. You need someone spotting for you when you do this and either marking them as you shoot or at least mentally marking them so you know exactly where they are going.
I hope you were able to buy more powder, you need to shoot it more and move the barrels less. I never correct any soldered joint till I am certain it needs to be moved, otherwise you will just be moving it back and forth all the time. Having a scope mounted will help your regulation shooting, but don't be surprised if it changes points of impact when you remove the scope. Bob H.

Edited by Birdhunter50 (30/06/08 08:50 AM)


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #109693 - 14/07/08 06:35 AM



My concern that something did go wrong seems right, now it crossed 20cm again and 15cm vertikal.
So i resolder it (again) and now its right in vertikal but still 15cm across. So tonight the torch springs to life again and the barrels will be spread.

Now this could be the powder charge, as when i checked some of the older realodings it seems as the powder messurer adds up yo 2grs when ever it wants. So perhaps i regulated it with a overcharged bullet. I have now uppgraded it with a baffle, but i will ceep a close eye on the scale.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Double rifle project. [Re: 450_366]
      #109713 - 14/07/08 02:06 PM

Andreas-

Never trust the thrown charges from a powder measure.
Never never never when loading for a double rifle.
Otherwise you're just as well off pissing on your leg.

If you are loading for a double rifle and feel the need to use thrown charges from a powder measure, throw them light, then trickle them up to weight in a freshly leveled high quality beam scale.
Keep the charges within 1/10th grain.
If you are using filler, weigh each charge of filler too.

In this case where you are setting up a rifle for a regulation load, also weigh and segregate your bullets


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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