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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
577/450
      #183055 - 03/06/11 01:44 PM

New to the forum and new to double rifles. I have a 12 bore Husqvarna that is starting to shoot well thanx to Daryl's advice(thanx again Daryl). Anyways I am looking at building a double rifle in 577/450 with .458 barrels. I know there are more lethal cartridges but non that stir the imagination as much. I am looking for pressure numbers for blackpowder loads and NfB as some people have had some success with nitro. Any action suggestions would also be appreciated as the large casehead of this cartridge will create significant backthrust when cartridge is pushed to express levels. If I've said anything foolish, be gentle, I'm new.

Regards
Smoke

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183056 - 03/06/11 01:56 PM


Suggested action - Greener Empire Boxlock.

It's big enough to handle the 577 casehead, it has a nice long action bar and will easily handle normal NfB loads.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183057 - 03/06/11 02:01 PM

You can do a lot better than that cartridge. The cartridge is tricky to load for and not very efficient. It is a poor choice for making express cartridge...I know I shoot it also.

(Just finished resizing 200 Martini cases getting ready for eh Victorian Rifleman shoot in Bowden, the 25th and 26th.)

Have you considered a 450 Musket number 2 sometimes incorrectly refered to as a 500/450 it is a much more efficient and direct competitior of the 577/450.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: DoubleD]
      #183060 - 03/06/11 03:24 PM

I do realize the shortcomings of the 577/450 but I can't help but lean that direction. I will stay in touch doubled and maybe I can catch up with you at Bowden as it is only 45 mins from here. Maybe you can talk some sense into me.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183061 - 03/06/11 05:16 PM


To make it easy, why not just go 450 Straight, then you can use BP or NfB ?

By 450 Straight I mean 450 3 1/4.

Give you the use of 458 barrels.

OK, not as sexy as the 577 but very practical.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577/450 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #183067 - 04/06/11 12:18 AM

Are you coming to the Alberta shoot?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado
Re: 577/450 [Re: DoubleD]
      #183068 - 04/06/11 12:42 AM

Smoke,
Believe me, I would be the last one to dissuade you from building what you want.
I know how you feel - having an attachment to a particular cartridge for whatever reason.
I do agree though with the shortcomings of the 577/450.
One consideration in all of this, is that if you are going through all the expense and trials of building a double rifle, you may as well choose a cartridge that isn't going to add to the challenge. There is so much information out there on the 450 3&1/4 in BPE and NE loadings that it would be hard to argue with that choice.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: Huvius]
      #183084 - 04/06/11 03:07 PM

Well it turns out that I have access to a reamer for the 450 3 1/4 so it seems like the logical choice to go that way. I guess the thing that I hadn't considered is that with very limited load data to work from I basically have no load to regulate new rifle too. I now realize to be successful I would need to build a single to develop a load of my satisfaction and then move on to the double. Too much for me at this stage of the game I think.

Now about the action. I would like some opinions on hammered vs boxlock. I have been thinking about the hammerguns as at one point we hunted grizzlies on horseback so a rifle in scabbard could be left loaded but uncocked. I realize we may never get the grizzly hunt back in Alberta but one can hope.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

Edited by Smoke73 (04/06/11 03:11 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183085 - 04/06/11 03:17 PM


A hammer gun can still be fired even if not cocked if the hammers are hit hard enough.

Re load data to regulate with - no shortage of load data around for all DR cartridges.

.

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #183086 - 04/06/11 03:27 PM

Good point on the hammer issue 500 nitro. Something I had not considered. I have never been around a back hammer action and somewhat assumed they had a safe quartercock position similar to my percussion muzzleloaders or leverguns.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26629
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183089 - 05/06/11 12:23 AM

I would build a .45 on a 2 7/8" case before building one on a 3" or 3 1/4" case, just from ease of loading with modern or black powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: DarylS]
      #183091 - 05/06/11 01:31 AM

DoubleD could you give me some info on the shoot can't find anything on the net.

Daryl
Could you elaborate on your reasons for the 2 7/8 over the 3 1/4. Your thoughts on the 2 4/10 would also be great as i have that reamer as well.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183093 - 05/06/11 12:27 PM

Quote:

Good point on the hammer issue 500 nitro. Something I had not considered. I have never been around a back hammer action and somewhat assumed they had a safe quartercock position similar to my percussion muzzleloaders or leverguns.




Smoke

A hammer gun on the half cock with the sliding lock in place is supposed to be "safe", but somehow I just can't bring myself to think of them that way (as in safe).
Too many things sticking out to get caught IMHO.

I use / have used hammer guns to shoot geese in the NT
and we sometimes have a hammer gun out with the Buffalo as well.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26629
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183104 - 06/06/11 12:48 AM

Quote:


Daryl
Could you elaborate on your reasons for the 2 7/8 over the 3 1/4. Your thoughts on the 2 4/10 would also be great as i have that reamer as well.



I've worked with 2 .45's with 3 1/4" cases along with a .50, 3 1/4". As to finding loads that are accurate using black powder, it was trouble in the long cases. When using smokeless powder, fillers ( I don't like fillers very much) were necessary due to the huge black powder-type cases not being designed for efficient smokeless powders.

Dan Pharris can attest to the problems with th e.45 3 1/4" in load developement and ringed chambers that happened.

I am well aware of the .45 3 1/4 Nitro Express round, which is loaded by a number of guys here, well one or two, and seemingly successfully- I'd jsut rather work with a shorter case - easier to find a good shooting load, and capable of almost matching the longer cases with today's powders- loving no more than 100fps, even in a case that's only 2.4" long, like the Sharps version of the Winchester .45/90.

It was called variously by the load Sharps used in it, .45-110-500, or the .45-100-550.

Today's brass holds roughly 95gr. to the top of the neck and with a long throat, 3/8" or so, seating can be long and not interfere with smokeless loads. The useable capacity if the bullet is seated out, will be greater than the .458 Win Mag. and results could be close to the longer case, but at reduced pressure.

The 2 7/8" was suggested as it will give similar ballistics as the .45 3 1/4 Nitro Express with about the same pressures, using today's powders.

I'm just guessing here, but Accurate Arms data should help in this regard.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #183126 - 06/06/11 02:18 PM

Quote:

DoubleD could you give me some info on the shoot can't find anything on the net.

Daryl
Could you elaborate on your reasons for the 2 7/8 over the 3 1/4. Your thoughts on the 2 4/10 would also be great as i have that reamer as well.



Here is a link to the discussion on the Alberta shoot. http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/11112/Dates-for-the-Alberta-Shoot-2011

and here is the flyer.



--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by CptCurl (11/06/11 08:42 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26629
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 577/450 [Re: DoubleD]
      #183159 - 07/06/11 01:30 AM

TKs DD - I wonder if I could use this rifle in the match, or is it limited to antique ctg. firearms only?

Here, shooting the offhand stage of a 200 yard postal match with my brother.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (11/06/11 08:43 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39343
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 577/450 [Re: DoubleD]
      #183167 - 07/06/11 02:02 AM

Interesting to see a "Colonial New Zealand" theme shoot in Alberta Canada!

Massed Maori charges anticipated?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577/450 [Re: NitroX]
      #183179 - 07/06/11 04:46 AM

any rifle of the Victorian era welcomed, modern weapons allowed but usually ignored as boring. Although seeing afellow in the red tunic and Foreign Service helmet of the Zulu War shooting a M1A is a bit different.

Some come in costume, most don't.

Different theme every year based on one of Victoria's little wars. Zulu war, Sudan War, NW territories all have been used in the past.

Yes you could use that rifle in the match...although match is a bit deceptive, it isn't realy a competition, but an opportunity to show how well these old guns can still shoot.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: DoubleD]
      #183470 - 12/06/11 12:11 AM

Well thanx for all the advice fellas I'm back to were I started. Probably will just use the .45-90 reamer. Unless.................!

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Kaimiloa
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 577/450 [Re: Smoke73]
      #191727 - 13/10/11 03:46 AM

You need two "must have" books to study: "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" by W. Ellis Brown, and "Shooting the British Double Rifle" (2nd Ed.) by Graeme Wright. The former gives you fantastic step by step building instructions with profuse photos, plus regulating and gun-choice info. The latter is the Bible I believe, as far as BP double rifles and nitro-for-black loading. Wright also gives a lot of pressure data.
I, too, have studied the BPE British doubles considerably, and regulated 5 or 6 so far. My opinion is that for all around hunting not to include rhino, hippo or elephant, create or buy a .500 X 3" double. For approximately 25" barrels, convergence of the axis of the two bores from breech to muzzle will be about 0.2", to best of my recall. If you place the barrels on a surface and sight thru them at a spot 100 yds away, the two bores will be "cross-eyed" by about a foot to best of my recall. In other words, the left barrel bore axis will be pointing to a spot about 12 inches to the RIGHT of the right barrel.
I very recently chronographed a .500 X 3" BPE double made in 1876. 138 gr. compressed 2F KIK BP and 364 gr. bullet gave avg. of 1725 fps for two shots. Recoil is somewhat above modern .375 H&H rifle, but not that of the .458 Win. Mag. In short, tolerable, suitably accurate, and straight case - deemed better by both Sharps and the British makers in comparison to necked BP cartridges.
.450 X 3 1/4" is a close second but not quite the oomph. Easier to find an old one than the .500 X 3".
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

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kologha
.224 member


Reged: 26/05/06
Posts: 5
Re: 577/450 [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #195917 - 06/12/11 05:34 PM

Hi everyone, I believe that the the first cartridge chosen to develop the Martini Henry around (known as the Long Chamber rifle) in 1870 was the .450 x 31/4" cartridge. According to Ian Skennerton (A treatise on the British Martini) it's OAL was 3.75" and the length of the case was 3.22" They dropped it in favour of the Short Chamber because "...there had been complaints regarding the difficulty in loading bent cartridges and of the paper wrapper being caught on the chamber mouth, but the committee stated that - These difficulties have been overcome by the substitution of a shorter cartridge of a bottleneck form on which there is no paper." So you will still be staying with history if you use the .450 x 31/4".
kologha

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: 577/450 [Re: kologha]
      #195918 - 06/12/11 05:47 PM

A gunsmith in Aus here said he built a 577/450 off of a Baikal 12 gauge SxS action.
Never actually saw the rifle and dont know anything else about it.

--------------------
.

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 577/450 [Re: Ash]
      #205165 - 14/03/12 05:02 PM

Finally found the link to what go me thinking about this in the first place. Have to manually work through the posts on that forum. Interesting, yes?

http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9639

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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