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AspenHill
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Bowhunting Elephant?
      #72582 - 27/02/07 03:45 AM

Would you do this?

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Double_Trouble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: AspenHill]
      #72591 - 27/02/07 04:22 AM

Sure!
(if was shooting from a pacaderm proof steel barred cage)lol


DT

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Double Trouble,
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larcher
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #72597 - 27/02/07 06:56 AM

I am dreaming of ele bowhunting night and day. I am training every morning and every evening with the bow.
I am cooking a special arrow in this respect and change my plans almost every day.
In fact bowhunting elephant is a myth, it's something that could eat anything in your life but this lunacy ; there is not enough place in a hunter's mind for ele bowhhunting ......and for family, hobbies and occupation commitment.

Some people might call it stunt, I prefer to name it Sport. I am right now reading a book : "the book of good hunting , In search of big game by Henry Newbolt. page 21 "sport will cease to be sport if it is made too easy - if too little chance is given to the animal and too little skill or endurance demanded of the hunter.From time to time the improvement of firearms has tended in this direction.........
./....where the hunter has no real dangers to contend with and no difficulties except such as can be overcome by a little extra skills or exertion.

Definitely (as Dries Visser ever says on the DVD "Africa at full draw, concerning big 5 bowhuntin)dangerous game bowhunting is the epitome of the chase in my opinion.
I don't say that I'll do it. The past 2 years I went twice in the CAR in Africa to bowhunt buff (and leopard) and I failed.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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Marrakai
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: larcher]
      #72642 - 27/02/07 09:34 PM

Ann:
If you are speaking of ethics, would you do this, hell yes.

I bought my copy of "Sagitarius" in 1974, and almost wore it out! Bob Swinehart and Howard Hill were my heroes. I was doing a lot of bowhunting in those days, mainly boar with a Hoyt 'Pro Hunter' recurve about 65 lbs, all traditional (no sights or release aids of course, back-quivers filled with cedar and turkey fletch, and single-blade spring-steel broadheads).

At the time, I would have crawled through broken glass for an opportunity to hunt ele with the bow.

Now, I'm afraid my Wilkes .470 would get the nod!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500grains
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Marrakai]
      #72817 - 01/03/07 05:43 AM

Personally I would not shoot an ele with a bow but I am a very poor bowhunter. Actually taking an ele with a bow is an accomplishment that must be respected. Statistially speaking, however, most elephant shot with a bow are actually killed with the PH's rifle.

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larcher
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 500grains]
      #72891 - 02/03/07 07:12 AM

Yes Dan,

I think so, most ele are "doubled" (as soon as possible, I hope) by the PH. The trouble being that the statistics are scarce, encouraging pessimistic allegations.
That's the arguable aspect of bowhunting, not enough crude facts.
In my opinion an arrow can easily kill an elephant as far as the placement is right(large vessels at the top of the heart or both lungs fully
+transfixed).............and the KE and penetration capicity of the arrow are sufficient.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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John303
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: larcher]
      #73011 - 04/03/07 12:09 AM

It's been done in the past, I was into bow hunting many years ago and read everything I could on the subject. If memory serves me correctly (back 50 years or so) I read an article in a magazine (should still have it some where) where a bow hunter killed an elephant with a bow. I believe the animal was under him and shot virtually straight down from a ledge, a safety factor for him I believe or maybe a good angle for a lung shot? The bow was in the 100# plus range and I think it took 3 arrows. John303

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AspenHill
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: John303]
      #73022 - 04/03/07 01:15 AM

Yes, it has been done. Gary Bogner had his on a TV program in the past. I have to say it was different than I thought it would be. His elephant, once arrowed, just walked off none worse for wear but within a very short time was obviously sick from blood loss.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Marrakai
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: AspenHill]
      #73100 - 04/03/07 02:58 PM

Fred Bear, Bob Swinehart and Howard Hill all killed elephants with traditional archery equipment back in the 1960s and 70s, as I implied in my earlier post. It has been done many times since.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Scott
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: AspenHill]
      #73168 - 05/03/07 10:55 AM

I personally could not do it because my shoulder will not let me pull more than 70# of draw weight. I do not see a problem with hunting elephant with a bow. I just found out that Joella Bates is going over this summer to shoot a buffalo with her bow. I think she said she will use a 110# Matthews.

Wait for the right shot.

Also, any animal shot with a bow will not be eligible for any record book if it has been has also been shot by a firearm. I would personally kick my hunters butt if he shot any of my animals as backup unless it was absolutely necessary.


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ArcherIII
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Scott]
      #77494 - 27/04/07 03:56 AM

It has been done...but hardly many times. Without a follow up shot from the PH.
Larcher will be the next.

--------------------
Dan Hunsaker


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larcher
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: ArcherIII]
      #77745 - 01/05/07 04:26 AM

eventually You decided to join the forum.
No doubt a great asset.
I was indicating what is a fob fletching in the "African hunting forum". I am sure You are more efficient to explain it.
I insist on the fact that the fob-rigged arrows do group very tightly, more than with any fletchings which I have used. The risk being to slash the fob that aren't as tolerant as vanes or feathers are. But wow!!!!!!! what groups the fob permit.

We would like Your reporting this hunt on this forum and on the African hunting forum.
By the by You can post on the Humour forum as well. In the past I was quoting You when posting for You on this forum.


--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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EricD
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: ArcherIII]
      #77753 - 01/05/07 05:28 AM

Welcome to NE Dan!

JB has sent me e-mails with quite a few very interesting pictures and stories from your bow hunts.

I hope you will share some of your experiances with us here on NE, both in the Africa forum, and here on the bow forum.

Erik


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ArcherIII
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: EricD]
      #77778 - 01/05/07 09:29 AM

This may be fun.
How thin skinned are folks around these here parts?

--------------------
Dan Hunsaker


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AspenHill
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: ArcherIII]
      #77790 - 01/05/07 10:50 AM

Dan,

Don't let anyone scare you away from this forum! Welcome! Pull up a chair and tell some hunting stories.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: AspenHill]
      #112363 - 24/08/08 09:58 AM

Howard Hill got 3 with a longbow.

Fred Bear got 1 with a recurve.

Bill Negley got 5 with a recurve.

Bob Swinehart got 2 with a longbow.

Tink Nathan got 1 with a recurve and 2 with a compound.

Gary Bogner, Steve Kobrine, Ricardo Longaria - along with many others - each took 1 with compounds; Steve Kobrine even got a pass-through.

Last year, an American lady became the first woman to kill one with a bow (compound).

Most of these are one arrow kills, just like a typical pig or goat in terms of doing the dash and crashing down dead.


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Bramble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #112373 - 24/08/08 11:05 AM

I am not in the least thin skinned Dan.

I just happen to think that it is a disgusting stunt, performed by people who would not dream of attempting it without firearm backup.

I would rate it along with sticking a 40 grain solid from a .22 Hornet through an Ele's ribcage and waiting for it to die of blood loss just so the record counts. Totally inhumane and dispicible.

Of course we won't talk about the ones that run off once stuck in the wrong place, far out of bow range and faster than a human can travel, still look on the bright side, they might eventually die of gangerene and because no firearm was involved, they will count for the record book as well.

Welcome to the forum.


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112376 - 24/08/08 11:36 AM

Bill Negley got some of his without firearm backup.

An arrow through the heart or both lungs kills really fast. I haven't been to Africa, but I have seen some big animals go down fast here in Australia - just as fast as with a rifle, and in some cases faster.

I'm not sure I follow your logic: if the hunter goes with firearm backup (which is compulsory by law these days) he is not brave? But if he goes without it (which he cannot by law), then how is the guide to drop the animal with the rifle if it goes pear-shaped (which the guide should do even for rifle hunters).

In the event of a flesh wound, those caused by arrows are more likely to heal than those caused by bullets. Gut shots are a different story with arrow or bullet, and call for immediate and heavy response from the guide.

Good hunting, Bramble!

Regards,

Ben


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #112433 - 25/08/08 12:26 AM

I don't see a huge difference between a heart/lung shot from a bow or rifle and you can't compare the energy differences between rifles and bows. However, with a bow, you don't have the option for a) a fast second shot; b) imobilising shots (i.e. leg, hip, spine); and c) brain shots. There is also a reason that most elephant hunters opt for brain shots - its quick, clean and instantaneous. No, its not always possible, but ethically most people think its the best/correct/sporting way to hunt them. JMHO

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Bramble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Scott]
      #112467 - 25/08/08 07:59 AM

Quote:


Also, any animal shot with a bow will not be eligible for any record book if it has been has also been shot by a firearm. I would personally kick my hunters butt if he shot any of my animals as backup unless it was absolutely necessary.





Bravery or the lack of it did not figure in my thoughts. Pokeing a hole in an sentinent creature with a pointy stick and waiting for it to blead to death when a rifle shot to the brain would finish the act in seconds does.

Faceing an animal with a firearm or bow does not rate in my books a bravery.

The lads that defuze IED's in Iraq and Afganistan are brave. The rest of us may get an adreniline rush from hunting but "Brave" , not even close.

Regards


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9.3x57
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 500grains]
      #112468 - 25/08/08 09:55 AM

Quote:

Statistially speaking, however, most elephant shot with a bow are actually killed with the PH's rifle.




For tens of thousands of years the bow and spear were the only weapons used. Now that we have guns, I tend to agree with Bramble for the most part though my curiousity gets the best of me I have to admit, so I wonder just how effective the arrow is on an elephant because, to be truthful, I do not know.

I once watched a documentary of pygmies spearing elephant. It was done completely differently than I suspected. No standing back and pitching the lance at all. The diminutive fellows waited along a trail in thick bush, actually, jungle, and when pachy strolled by shoved a thrusting spear up and in.

After contact, all hell broke loose as you can imagine. The critter humped up and ran hard but the shorties kept on his trail and eventually found him, dead. What percentage were wounded and lost I have no idea.

Somewhat interesting was the fact that there was never a big burly fellow standing anywhere near by with anything that goes "Boom"...

Quite seriously, I wonder what the actual percentage of gun-hunted elephant die with a bullet from the pro in them?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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500grains
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112492 - 25/08/08 04:11 PM

Quote:

I am not in the least thin skinned Dan.

I just happen to think that it is a disgusting stunt, performed by people who would not dream of attempting it without firearm backup.

I would rate it along with sticking a 40 grain solid from a .22 Hornet through an Ele's ribcage and waiting for it to die of blood loss just so the record counts. Totally inhumane and dispicible.

Of course we won't talk about the ones that run off once stuck in the wrong place, far out of bow range and faster than a human can travel, still look on the bright side, they might eventually die of gangerene and because no firearm was involved, they will count for the record book as well.

Welcome to the forum.




I hope you will not mind if I argue the point a bit. The difference between a properly placed arrow in an ele's chest and a properly placed bullet seems to be the time that elapses until the ele expires. If that is true, then where is the line (in terms of minutes elapsed) between a humane kill and an inhumane kill?


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: 500grains]
      #112496 - 25/08/08 04:31 PM

If the arrow is properly placed and performs well, the elephant does its dash and dies within the same timeframe as a similar shot from a rifle, sometimes less.

The risk the paying bowhunter takes is that if the arrow is less than adequate, it is the responsibility of the guide to immediately shoot it with the rifle. The bowhunter understands this, and should be willing to accept this possible outcome, in which case he cannot claim (whether to a book or his grandchildren) that he killed an elephant with his bow.

I have no experience with elephants except for the armchair DVD variety (bowhunting and rifle movies) and books. But, I have put away a few big animals here with both bow and rifle, and I would like to emphasise that bows do not kill animals by making them bleed slowly to death anymore than rifles do. Is 30 seconds and one arrow for a massive bull camel morally acceptable? I can't beat that with my .416 Rigby.

With a bow, you can tell a good arrow from a bad one, and if it is bad, the canon should and does start speaking.

But I do agree that a better description of hunters would be adventurous rather than brave, in most instances.


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Bramble
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Ben]
      #112514 - 25/08/08 09:12 PM

Dear Ben

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.
With the attitude that you display to this matter in your reply above you have gone a long way to answering my disquiet on this matter.
30 seconds, no that does not seem an unreasonable time and if I read you correctly you would not hesitate in using a firearm to prevent it from dragging out.
That is however somewhat at odds with the other poster that replied to your origional post.

Perhaps it is the perception of the standard for the record book that needs adjusting. When one reads some of the older tales of derring do and Elephants when less than perfect firearms were used, it was normal for the person firing the first shot to claim the animal even if his was not the killing shot.
If this applied to bow hunting perhaps that would be better. The skill is in making the hit after all not in the manner of dying. I can see no reason that one should not be rewarded for that hard skilled work.

I appriciate the skill that is involved into getting into bow range on a stalk (much closer than many get with a rifle). I have seen however too many videos of bow hunters ( and rifle tourists I must add) sitting in hides above water holes because they have not the skill to do it any other way. Even videos from a well known bow manufacturer and exponent doing just this.

It appears from your pictures that you are not one of these, so good on you.

In answer to 500 Grains,
It can only be, As soon as possible. Circumstances can alter cases and it would be frivilous to place a specific time on this. In cover it may take minutes to locate an animal. All I can say is that having done so, one should, and I have, shot it in the brain immediatly no matter what my perception of it nearness to death maybe.
I belive all of us that have hunted extensivly have had times where we wished that things had gone better and regret the elapsed time from first to last shot was not much less.
The only comfort one can take is the knowledge that if one could, one would have ended it sooner.
Mistakes happen. What plays on my mind is anybody setting out with the intention of not ending it quickly if "it will not count for the record" or not posessing the means to do so.

It is like 9.3's point. If you have to feed your family you do what you have to do, with whatever is to hand. But we don't we do this for pleasure. I think that it behoves us to do it quickly and calmly. That for me is the distinction between "Humane" and "Inhumane"

Regards

Regards


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Ben
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Re: Bowhunting Elephant? [Re: Bramble]
      #112558 - 26/08/08 07:14 AM

Yes, blind / waterhole hunting seems the way it is done with the bow in Africa for plains game, mostly. The option is there to stalk, but probably only one in twenty bow-killed plains game animals would be taken by stalking these days. However, with elephant, the bowhunter must stalk just like the rifleman must. Most buffalo are taken this way, too, although I have heard of the occasional blind being used.

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