Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa?

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
edmhunter
.224 member


Reged: 16/03/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ill.
416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa?
      #81519 - 30/06/07 04:55 AM

Is this a good choice for hunting everything in Africa? I read that it has to high of pressure for Africa. It looks like a perfect round recoil, price, avalibilty. How about factory loads if you do not want to reload. What would round would be be a better chocie other than a .375?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: edmhunter]
      #81535 - 30/06/07 01:14 PM

Quote:

Is this a good choice for hunting everything in Africa? I read that it has to high of pressure for Africa. It looks like a perfect round recoil, price, avalibilty. How about factory loads if you do not want to reload. What would round would be be a better chocie other than a .375?



If one can handle the recoil and shoot it accurately, then it is a GREAT choice. You hit the real advantages: price, available in lots of offerings, and good factory ammo.

You also hit the DISadvanatages: recoil and high pressure. Something to think about.


Assuming you are staying with a bolt action;

Other options: The 416 Rigby, same ballistics, longer action (heavy --- therefore less recoil), much lower pressure, and a true Classic.

Another great choice would be the 404 Jeffery. Proven performance, true Classic, and manageable recoil...... but Factory ammo is tough to come by.

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: edmhunter]
      #81539 - 30/06/07 05:10 PM

I agree with AZguy that the .416 Rem is a great choice! As an aside, I believe the pressure issue is VERY overstated as the .416 Rem operates at pressure not all that dissimilar to many cartridges regularly used in Africa and many other hot climates. For example, when was the last time you heard about people having trouble with their .270, .300, or 338 Win. in African or Texas heat? For that matter, shoot a 300 grain bullet from a .375 H&H case at published velocities and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts pressure is pretty much on par with the .416 Rem. If you are still really concerned about it, you can always load the .416 Rem to a traditional .404 Jeffery velocity and you have its ballistic twin with similar recoil. While you make a certain abstract sacrifice by not using the "classic" .404, you gain the very tangible ability to employ .375 brass in a pinch should .416 Rem brass become scarce or should an airline lose your ammo.

As for loaded ammunition, I order up regular batches from the folks at HSM (www.thehuntingshack.com) who produce good practice loads for under $40.00 per box of 20. They will also do a custom load for you upon request. Try getting that service from Federal or Winchester! Maybe I don't shoot enough, but after paying for brass, bullets, reloading gear, primers etc, I have always figured my time is worth more than the few bucks I would save reloading when compared to HSM prices.

Hope this helps,

John

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #81545 - 30/06/07 11:14 PM

I own and shoot the 416 Remington at 2416 FPS with a 400 gr bullet. And have other rifles for Africa
also. The Rem is a fine rifle in model 700.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: jro45]
      #81547 - 01/07/07 12:25 AM

Not to create a fuss but the 416 shooting 400's at 2400 runs at much higher pressures than the 375H&H shooting 300's at 2500fps.

The 416 runs about 58,000 to 61,000psi with the above loads and that is ultramag territory.I only get about 3-4 loadings out of the ultras before using new brass.

I would think that the 375 H&H has a much greater safety margin at around 50,000 psi with the 300's for not disabling the gun in a bad situation.

This is the exact reason I bought a 416 Rigby for Africa.Lower pressures for the same velocities. My buddie was hunting lion last year in 113 degree weather. What if the bolt gun locks up and the animal charges? I want no chance for screwups.

I would not run a 458 Wm at max pressure for better velocity either. Better to have a 458 Lott and download it abit.Could you get away with higher pressures?? Probably but I would rather be safe.I doubt any animal shot would know the difference.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: edmhunter]
      #81548 - 01/07/07 12:32 AM

Quote:

Is this a good choice for hunting everything in Africa? I read that it has to high of pressure for Africa. It looks like a perfect round recoil, price, avalibilty. How about factory loads if you do not want to reload. What would round would be be a better chocie other than a .375?




Personally I have used this caliber on 3 hunts in Africa and find it to be an excellent round. I have used it on game from cape buffalo to eland to duiker and baboon--awesome round.

In my experience--if loaded to 2400 fps--pressure should not be a problem--it you try to load hotter, well, you could have that problem with any round depending on how fast you try to push it. I have shot well over 80 rounds while being in Africa with this rifle and have never experienced a single problem. My rifle is a Remington custom shop rifle that weighs about 10 lbs.. I installed a limb saver recoil pad--made a huge difference and quite frankly I don't feel a whole lot more recoil than I do from my Sako in .375 H&H---there is however,in my experience, a noticable difference on game when shot with the .416 vs .375 H&H...

As to factory loads and hand loads--On my last trip I hand loaded some 400 gr. Barnes solids--at about 2400 fps--amazingly they shot to same poi as the factory Remington 400 gr. A-Frames..so that is the combo I used.. When I go back I am taking this again and will use the same combination--it ws highly effective on cape buffalo--I have used the A-frame on various calibers and find it to be one of the best bullets I have ever used..as far as weight retention and penetration--on the last cape buffalo I shot--at 75 yards broad side--I had a complete pass through--on the bullets I have recovered, all of them have retained 90% or more of their weight-and yet have excellent expansion...can't ask for more than that..so I highly recommend the Remington Factory loads in Swift A-Frames--400 gr--

Thanks,

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81557 - 01/07/07 01:49 AM

If you look at the SAAMI-specs on the 416 Rem. Mag. versus any number of other cartridges that are commonly used in Africa, the pressures are about the same, nearly identical, including those of the 375 H&H and 300 H&H, not to mention others like the 338 Win. Mag., 7mm Rem. Mag., 300 Wby, etc.

Most of the pressure alarums that you hear about concerning the 416 Rem. Mag. involved certain lots of Remington factory ammo that were indeed loaded too hot. But that's not all there is to that particular story. Remington also loaded certain lots of 375 H&H ammo (a cartridge, according to urban myth, that supposed to be completely "pressure-friendly") that were entirely too hot as well. I know, because I bought a lot of Remington 375 H&H ammo that was produced in that same timeframe, and it gave sticking cases, as well as ejector marks in my rifle, and I have NEVER, before or since, with ANY other lot of ammo, experienced sticking cases with that rifle.

I haven't found 416 Rem. Mag. pressures to be too much, or anything out of the ordinary for African hunting, either. I've used my 416 Rem. Mag. for hunting in temperatures that were over 100 degrees F in the Selous, and with never the slightest hint of a pressure problem. All of this pressure controversey about the 416 Rem. Mag. is totally about specific ammunition, NOT about the cartridge in and of itself. I've found that if you properly load or have expertly loaded ammuntion put up for a specific 416 Rem. Mag. rifle, there will be no pressure problems, and you'll still be able to enjoy full performance from that cartridge.

I load 370 gr. North Fork solids and softs to right at 2500 fps. in my rifle, and it's an incredibly good killer in all respects, plus superbly accurate as well.........

AD

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81559 - 01/07/07 02:26 AM

----------------piezo---------------crusher

--------------SAAMI--CIP---------SAAMI--CIP

7x57-----------51K---57K----------46K---49K
7mm Rem.------61----62-----------52----54
.308 Win.-------62----60-----------52----52
.300 Win.-------64----62-----------54----54
.338 Win.-------64----62-----------54----54
.375 H&H-------62----62-----------53----54*
.416 Rem.------65----62-----------54----54


* 270 grain bullet?

Doesn't look like all that much difference to me but I'm not a real internal ballistics guy. Again, even if one is not comfortable with these pressures, why not download to .404 Jeffery velocity and have a gun that will do everything you want without paying big money for .404 brass or a generally pricey .416 Rigby action and brass? Surely, the .416 Rem lacks the "romance factor" but it sure makes up for it in terms of practicality.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Edited by JohnTheGreek (01/07/07 03:51 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #81595 - 01/07/07 10:09 PM

Great discussion!!

SAAMI specs for pressure are similar for the cartidges noted.I feel this relates to max pressures sustained by quality brass and specific cartridge design.The pressure measurements I referred to above are from the accurate reloading data tables.They pushed the cartridges to the desired velocities noted and got those pressures.

Per Hornady's reloading text Hornady performs their all ballistic work with SAAMI guidelines at 70 degrees F.All powders generally develop higher pressures at higher ambient temperatures.Personally, I would be very concerned taking a max safe 416 Rem load at 62,000 psi at 70 degrees F and hunting it at 110-120 degrees F for dangerous game in Africa.Yes you may be fine but your pressures are higher and you would seem to be at risk for big problems too.

The only way to resolve the question would be to shoot your factory loads or handloads at 120 degrees and note the velocity change/pressures involved.I think I do recall that a bullet or gun powder manufacturor was looking at that issue for the same reasons.

As for me I will stick to the 416 Rigby.More powder, more recoil,but lower pressures at higher African hunting temps.
I would have no problems hunting the 416 in Alaska with its lower temps.Cause thats where I hope to take my 416 Rem hunting Brown Bear in the future!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (01/07/07 10:11 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5505
Loc: United States
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81597 - 01/07/07 11:06 PM

Quote:

Personally, I would be very concerned taking a max safe 416 Rem load at 62,000 psi at 70 degrees F and hunting it at 110-120 degrees F for dangerous game in Africa.



RIPP, Allenday & John have hit it spot on.

To slight the .416 Remington because of "high pressures" is to make a mountain out of a theoretical molehill.

Going the other way, a theoretical case could legitimately be made that factory loads or factory-pressured handloads in the .416 Rigby would make it a hazardous choice for cold weather hunting due to the theoretical possibility of misfires or hangfires. This might be more likely to occur than overpressure loads in the Rem .416. But just as the .416 Rem can be loaded down a smidge, the big Rigby can be loaded up.

Based on this argument, a guy should leave his .30-06 or .300 Win Mag home as it might blow up if he takes it to "Africa".

Both .416's are great cartridges for Africa from all I've read and heard.

Also, hunting with a "max safe" handload is generally a poor idea wherever a guy hunts IMO. Some guys do of course but not me. I always load down. Maybe we are dealing with handloading semantics here, but I attempt to load all my handloads to notably sub-max pressures and I try to test them all in the summer. It IS a good idea to test one's handloads and factory ammo in similar conditions to which they will be used in the field, hot or cold. If there is time to plan, this should be part of it.

But most places where hunting takes place in Africa isn't any hotter than much of the summer in most of the lower-48 USA. The "heat" of subsaharan Africa has been so overblown in my opinion. Testing can occur here.

My neighbor RIPP over in Montana can test his loads during the summer there and duplicate African heat {or exceed it}. Granted, he better hustle as has only 3 weeks of summer to get the job done {his summer is about one week longer than mine... } but it already sounds like he works it in so he doesn't have any problems.

Seriously, it is a good idea to test max handloads. Problems CAN occur. Last year the little thermometer showed 140 + degrees on the shooting deck on the back of my Polaris Ranger and I began to blow primers in some of the .223 squirrel loads I worked up in winter but hadn't tested in the heat of summer due to my own impatience. In the mornings all was well {very chilly} but at the heat of the day they blew {in this case, the bullets were just touching the rifling}. Also the gun was untouchable due to the heat {in spite of being painted which makes it "cooler" in severe heat} and the ammo had to be carried in my pocket to cool it off. Last year we had three days in a row where there was hard frost in the morning and the high for the day was in excess of 100*F. If that ain't Namib or Saharan conditions I don't know what is!

There's nothing inherently wrong with either of the cartridges. Attention to normal handloading procedures should mitigate against any trouble from either.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81605 - 02/07/07 12:34 AM

Quote:


Per Hornady's reloading text Hornady performs their all ballistic work with SAAMI guidelines at 70 degrees F.All powders generally develop higher pressures at higher ambient temperatures.Personally, I would be very concerned taking a max safe 416 Rem load at 62,000 psi at 70 degrees F and hunting it at 110-120 degrees F for dangerous game in Africa.



Ay, there's the rub! Maybe this discussion is really one coming out in favor of reintroducing "tropical" loads. Were I a member of the Barnes or Hornady family, if only for liability purposes, I think I might consider publishing at least two sets of data for all DG calibres based upon different temperature ranges. Alas, it is likely the case that ammo companies and those publishing reloading data assume 99% of all .416, .458 or .505 ammo will never be fired at an animal much less one in Africa. Even so, I still never hear about .300 Win ammo blowing up guns in Texas heat. Hot is hot....Sadly, I can tell you right now that a Cairo July at 107 is no hotter than a Utah August at the same temp.

hoppdoc,

AH HA! You found a very good excuse to own BOTH a .416 Rem and a .416 Rigby! In fact, you may have convinced me of the pressure issue! Now I can throw that model 70 in a synthetic stock for Canada while "investing" in a nice Walnut stocked Hein .416 Rigby for Africa!

Best Regards,

John

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5505
Loc: United States
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #81606 - 02/07/07 12:42 AM

[quote
AH HA! You found a very good excuse to own BOTH a .416 Rem and a .416 Rigby! In fact, you may have convinced me of the pressure issue! Now I can throw that model 70 in a synthetic stock for Canada while "investing" in a nice Walnut stocked Hein .416 Rigby for Africa!

Best Regards,

John



Indeed: The "Polaremington" and the "Equatorigby"!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81612 - 02/07/07 02:03 AM

I agree any pressure issues need to be sorted out during the hottest days of the summer before going to Africa-

You guys are a bunch of mind readers!!!

My wife remains confused-
why did I spent all that money on the Rigby and need a different rifle with the same ballistics when I already had something similar?

Works for me!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/07/07 03:53 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81635 - 02/07/07 09:32 AM

For one final thought--as stated by someone who has gone on more safaris than all of use put together.(70 plus) ..Craig Boddington has in numerous articles stated he is very happy with the .416 Remington in Africa and has used on many occassions...In fact on a very recent article he was using a Ruger with a custom barrel chambered in the .416 Hoffman which was basically the .416 Remingtons twin..

As to temperatures, another consideration is that most of the safaris are done during the Winter in Africa--while it does and can get rather warm--in the 3 trips I have been there I have never come close to 120 degrees F. --- Mid to upper 90's was warmest which was usually during the middle of the day --while in the mornings and evenings-- I actually had a jacket on.. Not saying it can't --but the was my experience ..

I think the whole pressure deal is BS in my opinion.
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5505
Loc: United States
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #81644 - 02/07/07 11:05 AM

Quote:

As to temperatures, another consideration is that most of the safaris are done during the Winter in Africa.

I think the whole pressure deal is BS in my opinion.
Ripp



Ja, 'n in die Oranje-Vrystaat die winter be koud, Broe!

Sorry man, after 18 years that's the best I can do!

{I agree about the pressure...}

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39442
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: edmhunter]
      #81648 - 02/07/07 01:48 PM

Quote:

Is this a good choice for hunting everything in Africa?



Only if you will hunting buffalo, or elephant.

Otherwise smaller calibres will be much better ie for plains game.

If hunting a mixed DG/plains game hunt with only one rifle (or two), it sounds like a good choice out of a number of choices.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #81705 - 03/07/07 01:50 AM

If you work up your loads carefully and proven them safe in 90-100 degree summer weather here at home, and there's no sign of high pressures, no sticking cases, then those loads will work just fine in Africa.

You can also buy Federal ammo in 416 Rem. Mag., and Federal tests this stuff to function properly in even 140 degree weather - I had a Federal technician tell me so first-hand.

This pressure issue with the 416 Rem. Mag. has its roots, as I stated earlier, with certain lots of Remington factory ammo that were indeed too hot. But it's been repeated so often on the street that it's beeen taken as absolute, Chicken Little-told-me-so type fact, and mostly amoungst those who have no experience with this cartridge whatsoever.

Guys who are real users and know the 416 Rem. Mag. and have actually hunted with in Africa it mostly laugh at these notions.............

AD

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_McGuire
.333 member


Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: allenday]
      #81714 - 03/07/07 03:07 AM

I had a 416 Remington in the Rem 700 not long after they first arrived in Australia.

Factory ammo averaged just over 2410 f/s. With Reloader 15 and 2208 (Varget) it was no problem to do 2470-2500 with 400 grain Hornadys. No pressure problems.....and that was a crappy Rem 700

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: 416 Remington is it a good chocie for Africa? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #81897 - 05/07/07 08:43 PM

I don't usually get involved in all this technical matter regarding pressures and this and that when it comes to picking a suitable rifle for Africa. For DG take anything with more than 4000ft/pd energy and for the plains game you can take any medium sized caliber.
The last thing to worry about is all the tech info. It makes no differance to the animal.
Most important is that you are comfortable with your rifle and that you can place proper shots. I'd rather hit an Impala on the right place with a .243 than the wrong place with a 375H&H.
I have a couple of different calibers and my theory is that if I can't shoot it with my 243 I'll shoot it with my 460wby mag and it makes perfect sense.
If ever coming to Africa, don't go around looking for a suitable rifle just bring your trusted one that you usually hunt with.
For example if you own a .375H&H and you have been hunting with it for years then don't go buy a 416 or 458 to come and hunt DG in Africa. You'll do much better with your old 375.
Remeber it is your safari and you must be comfortable. You are the one who is paying the fees at the end of the day so make sure that there is no doubt when you aim that rifle.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 117 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4149

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved