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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
My latest "Big Bore".....?
      #206822 - 09/04/12 09:13 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Well.....in theory, 0.4515", is a Big Bore diameter........isn't it?

Anyway, I finally got a chance to chrono the maximum recommended loads for my Winchester 92 lever gun, in .45Colt.

Please see below for all the gory details;

Winchester 1892 (new/current production, made by Miroku in Japan).
20" / 508mm barrel
W-W cases
CCI 300 LR primers
ADI AR-2205 (H-4227) powder
Frontier Bullets (of RSA), Game Ranger 300 grain CMJ (Complete Metal Jacket) bullets.

24.5 grains of AR-2205 = 1461 & 1469 fps
25.0 grains of AR-2205 = 1508 & 1524 "
25.5 grains of AR-2205 = 1529 & 1542 "
26.0 grains of AR-2205 = 1566 & 1565 " ***This was the recommended Maximum powder charge***

All of these loads extracted easily/normally and the cases show absolutely no signs of any kind of excessive pressure. I'll mike the case heads up tomorrow, to see what if any case head expansion has occurred!

To say this was a lively little rifle to shoot, was an under statement! OUCH!!!

When I remember to, I'll get some CCI LR magnum primers (CCI #350?), reduce the powder charge by 2 grains (back to 24.0 grains) and work up from there.

Special thanks to Daryl S and others for their advice and assistance with this project!!!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26873
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #206832 - 10/04/12 03:27 AM

Sounds GREAT! our last load's velocity duplicates the 300gr. cast HP load I used in my model 94 Trapper with the 16" bl. elk load. This was prior to finding WW680 and the 200fps increase in velocity at the same pressure that it provided.
I must wonder if there is a replacement powder today that will do that same feat.

Welcome, Homer - glad it's coming together. Fun gun, aren't they. There is just something about a short ctg. lever gun that's FUN! That is especially so, when they put out real world power.

Just checked ADI 2205 is H4227 or it's equivalence. I'm assuming ADI makes 2205 it for Hodgdon who labels it H4227- just like so many other powders Hodgdon sells. That puts it about the same, ballistically, as H110 and W296 and a bit slower than Herculese(or whatever it is today) 2400.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/04/12 03:31 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #206833 - 10/04/12 03:33 AM

Homer - if intersted in a snappier load, you could try one of the 250 or 260gr. jacketed HP's and drive them at 1,900fps to 2,000fps with the same powder. They'd be FUN on pigs. Of course, a 300gr. cast of jacketed at 1,550 would be as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #206902 - 11/04/12 06:37 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Daryl, it's a great little rifle with a considerable amount of power and another 10 odd rounds, in the magazine!

Yes, H-4227 powder, is ADI AR-2205. Not much chance of finding any WW-680 over here but as I mentioned, I'll change the primers and see what effect that has on things.

I am now the proud owner of a Nikon Cool-pix, L120 digital camera.
I took some images and have up-loaded them onto this "Box of Tricks" but as to putting them on Nitro Express, no luck! I have tried a couple of times but ended up deleting the post!

Any way, what the images were about was the accuracy of this little rifle. The target was only at 30 yards but I was getting pairs of bullet holes touching on the target.
The initial 24.5 grain load shot 1 1/2" high at this range. The increased powder charged loads then proceeded to go Left and then Downward. But grouping nicely in pairs!

I still haven't remembered to Mic up the case heads as yet.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #207020 - 14/04/12 08:24 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I finally had the time and then remembered, so I miked up these Winchester-Western cases.
The case head expansion was varied thru the different charged loads but either 0.0000", a couple at 0.0005" and a couple at 0.001". By this I mean, the heavier 26.0grain load did not have the largest amount of case head expansion

Going on past experience (with Bottle Neck cases), I believe I may still be under the Maximum Load, with this combination?.....???
As I have mentioned above, I will reduce the powder charge and load up some more but with LP Magnum primers, to see what happens!


Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26873
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #207067 - 15/04/12 02:00 AM

There is a big difference between case head expansion and case Web expansion.

It is generaly held that .001" HEAD expansion indicates absolute max loads, however your ballistics are quite low for that action.

Chamber size has a great deal of effect on the size cases expand.

"26.0 grains of AR-2205 = 1566 & 1565" You've listed this as the maximum listed load - was that for your rifle action or for a standard Model 94 in .45 Colt?

I'm assuming it was for the M92.

I had a lot of fun shooting 300gr. cast bullets with a case full of black powder. Of course, special care must be made in cleaning cases and the barrel including the chamber. Seems to me, they were running between 800 and 900fps IIRC.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #207192 - 16/04/12 07:29 PM

G'Day Daryl,

Yes sorry, I measured the Case Web just ahead (1-2mm or 1/6") of the rim of the case.
Also, yes it was in the 92 actioned rifle.
The ease in which these loads were extracted from the rifle, prompted me to suggest I will try some LP Magnum Primers, to see what effect this has on these same loads.

Daryl, I want to get a Lyman mould asap, and cast up a few!
I really enjoy makin/castin up my own bullets!!!
Though, I might pass on the Black Powder!
I'm not a racist or anything, just like to keep my already considerable work load, to a minimum!!!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26873
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #207200 - 17/04/12 12:38 AM

Sounds good - Lyman 325gr. # 452651 - a gas check design - - Lee Precision, also a double cavity mould - # 451-300-RF - is a gas check design.

The Lee mould will most likely be around $25.00, with the Lyman mould around $100.00cdn.

Spray Lee moulds (or Lyman blocks) with MsMoly and no more sticking lead or misaligning blocks and beeswax is no longer needed on the beveled contact surfaces or hinge. The moly in the blocks also helps release bullets.

For case head measurements, #'s taken before and after are said to be necessary and on felt pen marks, as ANY expansion is important, whereas expansion on the web is normal - up to .008" on some cases fired in some chambers.

Cleaning black powder fouling from cases is painful - I agree.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JFE
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Vic, Australia
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #207256 - 17/04/12 08:41 PM

You might want to pick both a GC and a PB design to provide some flexibility. Use the GC design for your HD hunting loads and the PB design for plinking & range work. GC's are a little expensive and need more time to fit. If the bullet sizing is correct out of the mould you can get away with using Lee tumble lube, which cuts down significantly on time required to make your bullets.

In case you're not aware most 451/452 moulds are designed for pistols. Some have long noses and SWC styling with wide front driving bands and thesemay not feed well in leverguns. Some leverguns can feed them well but you won't know until you try them. Personally, for your application I think you should look for RNFP, truncated cone or LBT styles as these are most likely to feed well.

BTW I think for heavy GC designs, those suggested by Daryl look fine.

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DarylS
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: JFE]
      #207265 - 18/04/12 01:04 AM

In my M94, plain based designs worked just fine with a hard card under the bullet. Due to the reduced speed of the short case, even when loaded 'plain' they can shoot very well.

If the bullet is larger than the groove diameter by .001" or .002" and of appropriate hardness, leading is not a problem until well over 2,000fps - normally, when using decent lube. I mostly used LBT Blue, but added some Vaseline to soften it a bit to help it flow in my sizer. Just make sure you don't overhead any lube as that will injure it's lubricity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #211890 - 02/07/12 04:54 PM

G'Day Fella's,,

Finally found some CCI 350 LP Primers (I already had them! Doh!) and loaded up some more crackers, for the little 1892!
Apart from the use of Large Pistol Magnum Primers, all other details are the same as above.
I first reduced the powder charge to 24 grains of ADI AR-2205 (H-4227), and worked up to 26 grains in 1/2 grain increments, firing Two Shots of each load.

Here are the gory details;

24grn = 1481 & 1445

24.5 = 1525 & 1476

25grn = 1544 & 1522

25.5 = 1545 & 1571

26grn = 1641 & 1608.

The rifle barrel was clean prior to starting this so I fired some of the previous CCI 300 primer ammo thru it, to foul the barrel. The air temperature was only about 8 degrees C with a bitterly cold wind blowing off the (getting snowed on!!!) mountains, to the west. The rifle was also allowed to cool down to almost air temp, between shots. There was no obvious signs of excessive pressure, and the cases extracted with ease (but I will mic them, when I get a chance), so I can only assume that every thing was well and truly OK?
Recoil, was just as fierce as before and Yes, I am still a Big Girly Man!!!

Fella's, I took two images of the fired cases and the 50 meter group but I have No Idea of how to Up-Load them onto this forum! Any offers?

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39720
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #211918 - 03/07/12 01:28 AM

Quote:

Fella's, I took two images of the fired cases and the 50 meter group but I have No Idea of how to Up-Load them onto this forum! Any offers?

Doh!
Homer



What's the problem? Where have you uploaded them to? Post the web reference and if the photo hosting site allows display of photos, should be easily worked out.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: NitroX]
      #211926 - 03/07/12 01:47 AM

Interesting, Homer - 50 to 80fps increase with just the primer - good data.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: NitroX]
      #211993 - 03/07/12 07:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Fella's, I took two images of the fired cases and the 50 meter group but I have No Idea of how to Up-Load them onto this forum! Any offers?

Doh!
Homer



What's the problem? Where have you uploaded them to? Post the web reference and if the photo hosting site allows display of photos, should be easily worked out.



G'Day Fella's,

Nitro, I'm a Computer Luddite!
I'm still not capable of getting a Photo Bucket account organised so...............

Double Doh!!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26873
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #212134 - 05/07/12 11:32 PM

Homer's Pictures.
Note the slight cratering - sign of excessive pressure, excessive pressure for the primer being used, or slightly weak firing pin spring, which is what I'm reading by the 'other' signs. I would try a diferent primer, with a stronger 'cup', ie: another make of magnum primer.

Also,there appears to be a little dimple in the middle of the pin strike, which appears in some to be a tiny hole. Dimples are usually caused by a small tit on the end of the pin, which is caused by leaking or blown primers erroding the pin's nose. It only takes one or two to do this.





--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: DarylS]
      #212179 - 06/07/12 04:57 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for that Daryl S, Much Appreciated!

I hope to get the time over the weekend, to sit down and Mic up these cases.
It will be interesting to see, what the velocity and pressure signs are like on this Rifle/Ammo combo, come Summer!!!
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,.......Summer!

Doh!
Homer

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Smoke73
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Homer]
      #214566 - 14/08/12 07:21 AM

Does your manual list what the pressure would be on that 25 grain load? I ve now got a 45 Colt reamer just need some time to cobble one together.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: My latest "Big Bore".....? [Re: Smoke73]
      #214569 - 14/08/12 07:29 AM

I've got nothing on loads that high with H4227, which my chart says is the Aussie AD2205.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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