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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Express sights vs scope vs peep
      #16728 - 15/07/04 12:58 AM

Are express sights quicker than peeps?Why scope a express sighted rifle?Are express sights specialized close in most game taken at ranges and scope sights more sniper type long range shooter type sights?Everyone seems to scope now days & all the new rifles have no iron sights from the factory? Are scopes the worst sight in close range thicket ,shooting fast,charge type shots,low light,self defense,combat..etc?
Scopes seem to shine on stands & power lines&mountains.etc..Whats the drawing line on iron sights vs scopes,anything under 100 yards a scope is a waste and not needed?Iron sights best at 50yrds. or less?Scopes a modern unfair,not as sporting,non traditional hunting sight?Dont they only use iron sights on red stag.....
Do we always need a scoped rifle for everyhunt?
Is there more HUNTING envolved in getting a closer shot with iron sights than a 500yard snipershot with a scope?Do scopes fail more than hunters admit?


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GeorgeS
.275 member


Reged: 30/01/03
Posts: 51
Loc: Metro NYC
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16729 - 15/07/04 02:36 AM

No. Why not? Not necessarily. Correct. No. It depends on terrain. No. No. No. No. No. Only cheap ones.

George

--------------------

"Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!"


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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16737 - 15/07/04 04:48 AM

Just seems like a scope cuts the distance & takes the hunt out alot,more shooting,less hunting,The indians & africans hunted with spears & sticks& strings& modern man feels he has to have a 6x24 scope or he cant hunt if he cant shootem 350-400yards away .Why are there only a few scopes worth owning & everything else is junk?There is glory in a great shot but i get more out of the hunt the more chance i give the game to get away.Iron sights are more sporting in my book,scopes are great for folks who cant see very well or older hunters whose eyes are not what they once were,but to shoot from one mountain to another is just not the same witha microscope type scope?Scopes are great dont get me wrong,but it is a different hunt when you relie on your own eye & ironsighted rifle......

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16753 - 15/07/04 10:51 AM

You are forgetting the lighting factor.
A scope can make a huge difference in very low light and I've often had to pass up shots when using open sights that could have been taken with a scope.
I much prefer to hunt with open sights but like to have a QD scope ready in case the lighting is too poor for the irons.
Much hunting for big boar pigs in outback OZ is done at first and last light as they are mainly nocturnal and having the option of being able to use irons when possible as the main sighting but also have a scope ready to go on if needed is the way I do it.


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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: 4seventy]
      #16755 - 15/07/04 11:34 AM

Scopes are probably a requirement in the States as most big game is nocturnal, and most will be taken at dawn and dusk where a scope does best.


--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2416
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: Will]
      #16757 - 15/07/04 12:06 PM

Gentlemen you miss the most important reason for a scope....your eyes get old and you can't see the damn iron sights...

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: DoubleD]
      #16761 - 15/07/04 06:12 PM

Yeah, but you can still use iron sights if you are close enough and use big front beads.

25 yards and the NECG 3/32" white bead.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: Will]
      #16765 - 15/07/04 09:19 PM

Old eyes need all the help they can get.
I ordered a new front sight today off our local Master Gunsmith Doug B.
I want a flouro front sight so as its easy to pick up especially in fading light.
He is going to modify mine by drilling and fitting the flouro fibre..
You still cant beat a good scope in failing light.
Just my thoughts,
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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cr500
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Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 213
Loc: Singleton ,Australia
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16766 - 15/07/04 09:29 PM

I,m no guru on this but I would think that scopes are best when the shot is from about 35yards (1 1/4 power)onwards. I took the 2.5 power scope off my 44 mag lever action as I think that at realy close,crawling through the lantena and finding a big angry bore coming towards me ,distance ,open sights are better. I,m one of the newer breed of those weened on scopes and cant use iron sights as well as some of the older ones so I still use scopes on everything else.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16851 - 18/07/04 05:16 AM

blackbearhunter The fact is the scope is a better sight regardless of distance! Iron sights ask the imposible of your eyes, regardless of age! The human eye cannot focus on more than one distance at a time. If the target is clear, the front, and back sights are a blurr, if the front sight is clear, the target, and the rear sight are a blurr, and if the back sight is clear the front sightand the target are a blurr! This may seem like it isn't true to you but is fact! your eye focuses on the back sight, then quickly refocuses on the front sight, then quickly refocuses on the target. Usually the front sight is clear, and the other two distances are blurred when the trigger is pulled. This is why those used to useing irons, see the sights better than those who only shoot irons occasionally. The eyes are trained to jump from one to the other, without you realizeing it, and theirs aren't! A scope, on the other hand, places the crosshairs at the same distance as the target, so your eye has only to focus on one distance for both sight, and target.

All hunting rifles should have both irons, and scope on them. There are two reasons for this. #1 if the scope is broken it can be removed, and the irons used as back-up! Additionally when a scope with any power is used at extremely close range, it is a henderence, because it is quite a bit higher above the bore of the rifle than the irons, and even if the target is seen, the shot will usually go low! #2 if really close the scope is in the way for instinctive shooting (shotgun style) unless the scope is a 1X power (no magnifacation) which is used with both eyes open, but still shoots lower the closer the target gets.

The scope is a better tool for exact bullet placement, even at short distance, or in poor light! If you will notice in the woods of the east, in the USA, there are some hunters shot accidently every year. This is usually blamed on there being too many people in the woods. It is my opinion, however, that if scopes were required there, there would be far fewer accidents, because the shooter can see his target far better. These areas are where most hunters use irons, and if you looked at the rifles involved in those accidents you would find most were not equipt with scopes. In the West, where scopes are the most often used sight, there are far fewer accidents.

Think about it this way, place a target in the brush at 50 yds, look at it with iron sights,the path to the target may seem clear, then look at the same target with a scope, and you will see sticks, and twigs you had no idea were there, and the target will be much clearer, even through brush. What looks like a deer, or black bear, with irons, may actually become a man in a brown jacket, ot a black coat, when viewed through even a low powered scope.

I prefere iron sights on my double rifles, with a QD low powered scope for back up, or the occasional long shot, but with my bolt rifles I prefere the same thing, but the irons are back up! In fadeing light a good scope is unbeatable, and will be shootable long after irons are no longer visable! Just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #16872 - 19/07/04 06:03 AM

I agree totally with all comments,Safety,low light conditions,and everything focused on one sighting picture is enough reason to use a scope & being able to quick detach to irons if needed is iceing on the cake!!!
Thanks for the help!


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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16876 - 19/07/04 08:40 AM

IMO - it depends entirely on whether the shot is being taken "off-hand", or over a rest. I always reckon that when shooting off-hand, a scope only magnifies barrel shakes and makes the shot more difficult to control.

An illustration, the Big Game Rifle Club applies a penalty for scope useage at their competitions (shot at 25, 50 and 100 yards) because it was seen to give an unfair advantage. Those that had always used scopes grisled about this, but when forced to learn how to shoot with open sights, soon realised that they had been penalising themselves, and actually improved their scores with open sights!

That's with stationary targets. But with moving targets, I have always used shotgunning techniques to get the right lead. Naturally, the lead is different (why it is difficult to maintain high standards of shooting when you do a lot of rifle and shotgun shooting), but you do have to lead!

I believe that it is easier to do this with open sights. How do you factor in scope magnification on a running shot?

Can you imagine anyone fitting a scope to a shotgun??

And that's the great thing about shooting double rifles - it's the closest thing you can do with a rifle that feels like shotgunning!

The second best thing you can do standing up?

Besides, you can't shoot doubles off a rest anyway!

And if you accept it as a discipline, that is shooting open sights, preferably with a double since unless the animal is a) dead b)deaf c)has no mates, etc the second shot will be a moving shot, you will start stalking game to within range, rather than banging away over the car bonnet!

Comes down to why you hunt or what you call hunting, really.


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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16887 - 19/07/04 01:21 PM

I am no stranger to peep sights using them for Service Rifle and Palma High Power Rifle matches. Up until about 7 years ago I had only killed 2 big game animals [except for game shot with a pistol] with iron sights. I started using the express sights on my doubles. It took a few succussful shots with the iron sights for me to have the same confidence in them that I had in a scope. I got to where I enjoyed iron sight hunting so much I had to "force" myself to use the scope on my 9,3x74R to gain conficence with it. I much prefer the Express type sights on my doubles to peep/ghost ring sights. I have used them enough that I have confidense in them. In fact on my June Africa trip I can distinctly remember the sight picture on every animal I shot with the scope and the 9,3. With the 450 No2 I do not even remember even looking at the sights . I know I did [look at them ]because I never had a miss with the 450 No2. I guess because I have shot that rifle so much it has become second nature, but I do not remember "aiming" at the 2 buff or 3 elephant that I shot. This is also true for the caribou, black bear shot with the 450/400 and the black bear I shot with iron sights and the 9,3 Chapuis.
I just do not remember consciously "aiming" I just shoulder the rifle and pull the trigger. With a scope I always remember "aiming". Strange but true. I guess the secret might be to shoot your iron sighted rifles a lot, until they become an extension of your will. [Use the Force ]
I do not know how else to explain it.


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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Express sights vs scope vs peep [Re: NE450No2]
      #17212 - 26/07/04 01:37 PM

Speaking for myself, I prefer iron sights up to 100 or so yards under most all conditions, beyound that a scope is king...

I prefer the Ghost ring peep over the shallow V, but not by any great margine...

Using aging eyes and age is a crutch and is mostly in the imagination of most..I wear bifocals and I can still shoot irons...I think most never use them and speak from a defeatist point of view, read to many gun books, and havn't even tried them...I hate this age thing as an excuse for anything....Again I say speaking for myself but I have been roping steers with my grandson all evening and I am tired, sore and cranky....


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