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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota
      #16727 - 15/07/04 12:35 AM

Anyone compared the winchester safari express to the ruger express?Which one had the best handling/shooting feel?Best deal for the price?Also is a black walnut stock more tougher than a circassian?Is the new David miller type styled stock on the winchester better handling/feeling than the older style win.express stock?Does the winchester safari balance better than the ruger?Is the reliabilty about equal with both rifles?Anyone have any experince with the winchester custom shop big bore rifles?Are they considerably that much differant than standard factory?What about the remington custom shop safari rifles?Are they reliable and accurate?Good value for the money?Rate these big bores...1-11
Ruger,New winchester,remington,Dakota,Sako,sauer,A-square,browning,pre64 winchester,whitworth,cz

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GeorgeS
.275 member


Reged: 30/01/03
Posts: 51
Loc: Metro NYC
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16730 - 15/07/04 02:42 AM

Yes. Winchester. Define 'deal'. No. To me, no. To me, yes. Probably. No, just medium bores. Somewhat. Never used one. Don't use PFs except on smaller plains game species. Some say yes, some say no. Some say yes, some say no. Rate them based on what criteria?

George

--------------------

"Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!"

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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: GeorgeS]
      #16736 - 15/07/04 04:25 AM

Deal defined-Best rifle for the money,Ruger express cost more,Winchester express i think is a lot of rifle for the money.But I think the ruger is a lot of rifle for the money also.Rate the rifles on craftsmanship & quality.I have handled the pre64 win.& the new win.&sauer&cz& ruger&remington,but not the dakota or a-square or browning.The dakota looks like one of the best to my eye,the sauer 202was a 375 and was also beautiful& handled great,the ruger felt barrel heavy & unbalanced& big,The winchesters balanced great & shot perfect groups,Remington same as winchester bolt feed smooth as glass,super accurate,cz felt & looked to be cheaper quality i,e.stock ,blueing,metal work,not as snappy as others coming to shoulder for me,A-square looks to be a nice quality rifle,would like to try the a-square& Dakota some day,also would like to try the old fn brownings,wouldnt know what to look for in the salt wood stocks on the old brownings though,I guess one would have to take the stock off and look for rust?Never tried a sako either,or steyr,but seems like the control feed rules for dangerous game hunting.On the rifles i have shot and handled in all honestly,keeping in mind my build and fit the sauer 202 felt the best with the winchester & remington custom shop about tied for second.I really need to try the others,I think the dakotas look like a lot of quality rifle!
I did read a story the other day about a alaska guide who had a old mauser action 458 ,plastic stock,that was UGLY ,that he built & was one of his favorite rifles for backing up hunters after the great bears,Handled & shot like a dream to him!!!Also the old guides & hunters have a lot of great things to say about the old pre64 winchesters....

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Eric
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #16739 - 15/07/04 05:00 AM

blackbearhunter: I have looked at the Win M70, Ruger mag express and the CZ 550 (also a whole lot of really nice rifles I can not afford). I chose the Win M70 in 375 H&H and 416 Rem. I have not been disappointed in these rifles. Have adjusted the trigger pull weights down and cleaned them up a bit and took out the factory bedding compound? and re-done with brownells agraglass.(both primary and secondary recoil lugs, the rear shoulders on the action and a 1" barrel pad in front of the primary lug). Also lock-tighted the cross bolt, and make sure the action screws are thight and started shooting. Both shoot very well, 1" or better with the 375 H&H with 300 gr bullets and so far between one and one and a half in the 416 REM with 400 gr bullets. Both are accurate and a lot of fun. I have a CZ on order in 458 Lott and really look forward to working with it. I have tried to get a Ruger in 458 Lott for over a year and a half, I don't think the are making them( or their side x side shotgun. Too busy fooling with new cartridges and rifles that no one needs, like the .204 ruger?). I am not sorry in my choice and these perform very well and I won't be afraid of taking these on some hard hunts. Good luck on your choice. ERIC

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DrJon
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Reged: 18/07/04
Posts: 7
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: Eric]
      #16854 - 18/07/04 08:34 AM

Eric,
I was glad to read about the success you have had with your two Winchester rifles. I recently purchased a Winchester 70 Safari Express in 375 H&H Mag, but have not even fired it yet. Sadly, I discovered that the last round in the magazine does not feed reliably; it tends to pop out of the magazine as the round before it is ejected. Upon closer inspection, it seems that the follower is not providing enough support to the left side of the cartridge, so instead of being wedged up against and under the right side feed rail it is allowed to slip past and pop free of the magazine. I confirmed this by building up the deficient area of the follower with bits of scotch tape, and sure enough, the last round stays put in the magazine. Earlier, I had returned the gun to Gander Mountain to have their gunsmith work on the rifle (under warrantee), but he determined that it was the magazine spring, not the follower that was the problem, and that it would be several weeks before he could get a new, higher power spring to replace it. I obviously disagree with his theory. I kept possession of the rifle until the part comes in, figuring that it was still usable at the range as-is and that I could fiddle with it to see if I could right the problem myself (not to mention not wanting to take the chance of the rifle being damaged while in the shop).

How is the feed on your rifles? Do the last rounds stay put in their magazines? Winchester did send me a replacement follower, but it had the same problem as the original (and I double checked the part number with the parts diagram to make sure they gave me the right thing). I have a theory that Winchester might have received a batch of slightly out of spec followers, and that is what is causing my problem. Any advice or information you, or others on the forum, could give me would be most helpful. Thanks,

-Jon

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1407
Loc: United States
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: DrJon]
      #16878 - 19/07/04 08:46 AM

I won't own another Winjammer after the experiences I had with three of the Safari Express rifles. All three had bedding problems...barrel touching the wood on the right side...

All three would have rounds popping out of the magazine on feeding. Two of the three jammed at times while feeding the first round from a full magazine. One rifle was my buddy's in 416 Rem...mine were 416 and 375.

My SS/synthetic Win in 375 worked perfectly, however. These seem to be pretty good rifles. If given a blue/walnut Safari Express, I would sell it off ASAP, however.

My CZ in 416 Rigby functioned perfectly, but the stock cracked after only several rounds. The factory replaced the stock; I glassed the action, and all was well...fantasticly accurate!

My Ruger in 416 Rigby was the best of all three makes. My only objections were the excess weight and lousey trigger. The weight buffered the recoil of the 416, and the trigger is easily remedied with $75.00 and 1/2 hour's work...Timney...

IMHO, if you can't afford the Ruger, buy the CZ and glass the action.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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510Wells
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Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #17093 - 23/07/04 01:50 PM

I can't help you with a lot of the brands you are asking
about but I own Ruger and Winchester.

My M70 in 375 H&H balances very well and I like the newer
stock design with the bigger recoil pad area. I added a
scope (Leupold Veri-X II 2-7 in Leupold QRW bases) and
did a little trigger work to lighten it up (3.75 lbs.) and
I'm a happy camper.

The Ruger is in 458 Lott and was rather lite (9.5 lbs.) for
my taste and barrel heavy with a 6+ lbs. tigger pull. I added
a scope (Leupold Veri-X III 1.5-5 in Warne QR bases) put in
a Timney trigger (at 3.75 lbs.) and added the "standard" (11
oz.) Breako mercury recoil reducer in the butt and replaced
the stock pad with a Kick-Eze. It's now MUCH better to shoot,
while it's not a "plinker" it's not the Holy terror it once
was.

As far as looks the Ruger has it all over the Winchester.
Better wood (VERY pretty!!!) and bluing and better (I think)
"lines". But then it cost about $400 more (when I bought it).
So cost wise I have to give it to the winchester, both shoot
well and I wouldn't hesitate to take either gun to Africa,
if I could afford it...

Hope that helps

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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DrJon
.224 member


Reged: 18/07/04
Posts: 7
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: 510Wells]
      #17150 - 25/07/04 09:21 AM

Roi,

How is the feed on your Winchester 70? Does the last round in the magazine stay put until you drive the bolt forward? I have a theory that my feeding problem is caused by a wrong/poorly made follower (see above), but convincing the gunsmith of that is another matter. I would post a little picture of my follower, so it could be compared with other's, but I haven't quite figured out how to do that yet. Thanks!

-Jon

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510Wells
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: DrJon]
      #17160 - 25/07/04 12:48 PM

Jon,

I have never had any kind of feeding problem with the newer CRF M70. It works great with both softs and solids in either 270 or 300 Gr. and round nose or spitzer bullets for as fast or as slow as I work the bolt. Shoots good to

I have an older Winchester M70 that is a custom shop 375H&H with a bobbed (20 in.) barrel (Ex Alaska DFG bear "protection" gun) and it feeds flawlessly also. But I recently got a "replacement" spring from Wisners that was supposed to allow me to get another round in the magazine. Well it doesn't work very well and about 50% of the time the last round "stove pipes" (jams sideways) on me. The spring is much stronger than the stock spring, maybe thats your problem also???

Hope that helps

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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DrJon
.224 member


Reged: 18/07/04
Posts: 7
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: 510Wells]
      #17385 - 29/07/04 11:29 AM

Roi,

Glad to hear of your good experience with the M70. It gives me hope that, one day, I will be able to get mine to work properly. I plan on shooting it this weekend; it would be nice if it turns out to be reasonably accurate and pleasant to shoot.

Thanks for the advice on the extra power spring. It further confirms my hypothesis that the gunsmith is wrong: an extra power spring is not the answer, but it is the follower that is the problem. I took a look at Brownells and they offer two follower options that may be of use to me, so I may be giving one of those a try in the near future. I also looked at a used Griffin & Howe in 375 H&H that was for sale at Gander Mountain (~$4300, ouch!). It was built on a push feed M70 action and had a very different follower than mine (a simple “step” profile, as opposed to mine which has a fairly complicated contour to it). I realize this may be an apples to oranges comparison, but my follower just doesn’t look right at all.

-Jon

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Eric
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: DrJon]
      #17419 - 30/07/04 02:24 AM

DrJon; Both of my Win M70,s feed just fine, fast or slow, three in the magazine, drop one in the chamber and press in on the extractor as I close the bolt. Both are the factory stock mag springs. The followers are two step with a dish out at the rear left side probably to clear the rim as it comes out from under the rails. Both are really fun to shoot, especially the .416 Rem. The current stock design fits me really well and gives me a strait push back with very little muzzle rise. Hope you get yours feeding properly. Eric.

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DrJon
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Reged: 18/07/04
Posts: 7
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: Eric]
      #17541 - 03/08/04 09:10 AM

Eric,
Thanks for the information. I am back from my little vacation this weekend, where I was able to try-out/break-in/sight-in my M70. Other than the last round feed problem, the gun worked very well. I even would say it was a great pleasure to shoot. The recoil was not nearly as heavy as I expected (Remington 270gr soft nose factory load). I also found the stock design to fit me well. It shot a bit low, even with the sight cranked all the way up, so I may be looking toward the aftermarket. In trying to completely disassemble it, I found the action was bedded very well; so well that I was unable to separate the barrel and action from the stock (is there a trick to this?)! I managed to upload a picture of my follower (top view, not a very good shot, still trying to work out my camera):

is the what yours looks like? I have a replacement, non-Winchester follower on order from Brownells that should arrive tomorrow. Hopefully this will cure my problem. In either case, I will let the group know how it turns out.

-Jon

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500NE
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Vienna, Austria
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #17559 - 04/08/04 03:51 AM

Hi blackbearhunter,

Which caliber are you considering for your rifle?
If your looking for a .375, it's going to be a difficult choice between the Winchester and the Ruger.

If your looking for .416 and up, than it's IMHO definitely the Ruger! .416 Rigby or .458 Lott (for Ruger) beats the .416 RemMag (for Winchester) for Dangerous Game in africa any time!

Only weak point on the Ruger (I own one myself), it's lack of aftermarket accessories. (e.g. I would love to have a rigby-style mag plate with +1 capacity for mine).
Had the action of mine bedded & worked over a little, nothing more to be done! Stock is perfect (at least for me) and the scope mount is simple but WORKS!

Annother possible alternative to consider is the CZ550:
Needs a litte reworking (diff safety & smoothing of system) & maybe a different stock (cheap & readily available), but very reliable and a great rifle for DG! Very affordable!

Cheers,
500NE

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Eric
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 45
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: DrJon]
      #17587 - 05/08/04 05:04 AM

Drjon, my magazine follower does not look anything like your photo. My follower is bright finish, lower on the right side, higher in the left, with a dished out area on the left rear. Its the same in my .416 Rem. Both guns work just fine. I don't know what follower your rifle left the factory with, but its not the same as both of mine. Good luck and hope you get the correct follower. Eric

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blackbearhunter
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: 500NE]
      #17590 - 05/08/04 07:36 AM

Hey 500NE,I Got a winchester in 375H&H & have nothing but good to say about it,I think I got one of the good ones,it shoots great & no problems feeding...etc.I would like to get a ruger in the 416 or 458 someday.I think the rugers are a lot of gun for the money.I think i will pass on the dakotas,they are too nice & would hate to scratch one up.I would have to have someone cut the brush down in front of me so i wouldnt beat it up!!!
As far as fit I think the winchester fits me to a Tee and it just handles & feels right!!
I think the recoil is about right with the 375 also and it isnt anything bad or hard to deal with,I like the idea of easier handling in that department and feel it can go along ways with good shooting and shot placement!!!
Thanks everyone for there help!!!

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DrJon
.224 member


Reged: 18/07/04
Posts: 7
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDa [Re: Eric]
      #17594 - 05/08/04 08:33 AM

Eric,
Thank you for this information! This confirms what I had been thinking from the start of this mess. I will be giving Winchester a call ASAP to have a talk with them about the appropriate follower for this gun, and have them ship me one of *those*. I did receive an aftermarket follower from Brownells, and with a little fitting it did allow the gun to function reliably, if not smoothly. I will probably fiddle with it a little more because I like to tinker with things, but I really want the *correct* Winchester part, as that should be better than my kludge. I will post a follow-up after I talk to Winchester. Thanks again for your help!
-Jon

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wombat
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Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #18434 - 25/08/04 08:26 PM

You can read about my unhappy experience with a Win. 416
in Africa elsewhere on the forum.I will never buy another
Win. again.I own two Rugers in 338-Mod 77 MK 1&11.Both good
guns but neither has safeties to my liking.My CZ 416 Rigby is a great gun but needs some simple things before shooting.The cross bolt is a joke and needs doing properly with two new ones,attend to the bedding(not as simple as you may think),have the action polished and bevel the face of the extractor.The CZ is a well made rifle that lacks good finish-the Win. is a well finished piece of crap.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: wombat]
      #18534 - 28/08/04 06:40 AM

For the money, a Ruger safari grade rifle is certainly one of the all time best buys in big bores I have seen..I don't own one but would love to have one...

The barrel alone with intregal quarter rib, barrel band swivel, barrel band front sight, would cost you three grand in a custom rifle...the control feed, the m-70 safty and a nice designed English stock all make for a lot of gun for the money, not to mention a true magnum action that will handle a 416 Rigby or a 505, 500 Jefferys and a bunch of others...who else offers all these options at $1200 give or take a hundred dollar bill....NOBODY!

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510Wells
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: atkinson6]
      #18546 - 28/08/04 08:31 AM

Ray,

I have one of the Ruger Safari Magnums (458 Lott) and I like it a lot (no pun intended). But a minor correction about the safety. It isn't a M70 safety on the bolt that blocks the firing pin. While it's on the right side of the action it's a trigger block type safety in the reciever just like the other Ruger M77 mark IIs.

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: winchester safari express vs Ruger ExpressvsDakota [Re: 510Wells]
      #18691 - 31/08/04 07:33 AM

510 wells,
Your dead on partner..that is correct and it is a minus I suppose for the Ruger....It just looks and flips off like a M-70.

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