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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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buckstix
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I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68
      #255076 - 13/10/14 11:01 AM

Hello All,

I need help determining the mfg date of a rifle I just acquired. Its a custom C.G.HAENEL in 10.75x68 caliber. Top of barrel is marked "C.G.HAENEL.SUHL.GERMANY" with lots of stampings. Can anyone determine what all these markings mean?

thanks in advance for your help.









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Huvius
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255104 - 13/10/14 11:41 PM

I am thinking that your rifle may have been rechambered from an earlier 10.75 chambering. I have never seen an 1888 in 10.75X68 but I wouldn't say they weren't, just a pretty heavy cartridge for that action.

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: Huvius]
      #255115 - 14/10/14 12:41 AM

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

I did find another similar rifle from a Julia auction in 2008. (see pic)



I also found some earlier references of about 1909 for the 10.75x63 - of which it was indicated that some rifles in that caliber had their chambers later re-cut to 10.75x68 since only the case neck was a bit longer.

Is there any way to more closely determine the mfg date? It is my understanding that the 10.75x68 cartridge was not made until sometime after 1911.

If anyone else can be of some help, please reply.

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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255127 - 14/10/14 04:22 AM

very nice C.G: Haenel Modell 1900 I wish to have

when looking at the markings it seems clear that 10,75x68 was stamp later and this rifle was rechambered once when the original 10,75 mm cartridge was not available anymore.
the 10,75x63 is ultra rare today no doubt because it was so easy to rechamber such rifles to 10,75x68.
I believe that your rifle and the other Haenel too were once made for the 10,75x57! its simple to rechamber the 10,75x57 to the longer x68 case amd was made more than once
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=206900&an=0&page=2#Post206900

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255128 - 14/10/14 06:07 AM

Hello Lancaster,

Thanks for your reply.

Do you have any idea what the other symbols and letters mean?



As a side note, I really like this rifle's unusual front sight. It has a small bead at the front, and when you push it down with your finger, "up" pops a "low-light" sight. And, when you push it down, "up" pops the front bead again. Its like a little built in teeter-totter.




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Huvius
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255129 - 14/10/14 06:33 AM

Quote:


As a side note, I really like this rifle's unusual front sight. It has a small bead at the front, and when you push it down with your finger, "up" pops a "low-light" sight. And, when you push it down, "up" pops the front bead again. Its like a little built in teeter-totter.






Now THAT is cool!
Never seen one of those before.

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: Huvius]
      #255130 - 14/10/14 07:52 AM

Yes, it is really neat. I've never seen anything like it either.

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255144 - 14/10/14 01:29 PM

the front sight is realy interesting

we had the Haenel M 1900 before here and there may be some informations somewhere in the mannlicher forum. the only thing I find now was this http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthre...amp;type=thread


the 10,75x57 was the 11mm Mod.88 in old days loaded with 3,5 gramm R5 powder so a proof load of 3,2 gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver seems plausible. the Gewehr Blättchen Pulver was probably the military rifle powder for the 8x57 and was burning a little bit quicker than R 5 powder. kuduae know such things better





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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255185 - 15/10/14 04:20 AM

take a look into the list

the 10,73x63 was loaded with 3,8 gramm R 5 powder

the 10,75x68 was loaded with 4,2 gramm R 5 powder

so my 2 cents your rifle startet as a 10,75x57

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255187 - 15/10/14 04:35 AM

Thank you lancaster,

Well, I'm hoping Kuduae will jump in and solve this for me. Knowing the original caliber will help to determine the date of mfg of the rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Ash
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255213 - 15/10/14 08:35 PM

Buckstix - How's it feed and shoot? Never new an M88 could become a 10.75x68! More photos of the action, please? Assuming its been modified to not need the clip?

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kuduae
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: Ash]
      #255228 - 16/10/14 02:59 AM

Quote:

Never new an M88 could become a 10.75x68! More photos of the action, please? Assuming its been modified to not need the clip?


Ash, the Haenel M1900 and M1909 actions are not “merely modified M88 actions”, but complete redesigns made from scratch in Suhl. See again this thread, bottom of page:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/printthre...amp;type=thread
These Haenels used a staggered column magazine, same size and capacity like the standard Mauser one, loaded from top with single cartridges or stripper clips. But as the now common W-type follower spring was still protected by Mauser’s patents, Haenel had to design and patent his own magazine follower leverwork. Remember, the USA had to pay heavy royalties to Mauser until they entered WW1 because their “new” M03 Springfield rifle infringed on several valid Mauser patents, among them the W-type follower spring. BTW, the contemporary Mannlicher-Schoenauer spool type magazine was originally meant to be a flush, 5 shot capacity magazine that did not infringe on Mauser’s patents.
The 1910 Haenel catalog mentioned a “10.75” chambering as an extra cost option, but warned about the magazine capacity being reduced to 4 shot. So this offering was apparently for a fatter cartridge, either the x63 or x68.

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kuduae
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: kuduae]
      #255232 - 16/10/14 03:37 AM

Buckstix, though the rifle is still a Haenel model 1900, not the improved M1909, it was proofed after April1, 1912, when the Suhl proofhouse made the change from gauge numbers, here it would be 67.49, to millimeters, here 10.5mm, for the bore= land (NOT the groove or bullet!) diameter of the barrel. So it was completed for sale between 1912 and 1914, when Haenel switched to military parts production. The CROWN-crown/N proofmarks show that it was proofed using the "special 4000 atm proof powder” for a service load containing 3.2 gramm = 49.4 grain of the fast burning military rifle powder and a steel jacketed bullet, weight not given, as usual.
I agree with Lancaster: this 3.2g load seems to point to the 10.75x57 as an original chambering, but I am not sure. All three cartridges, x57, x63 and x68 existed in 1912 and Dixon even mentions a 10.75x61, listed in the DWM casebook about 1906 as “for Haenel”. If the rifle was rechambered, it was done outside the German proof law, as there is no crown/R or eagle/I reproof mark visible. The 10.75x68 marking may be a later clarification as well.
The other markings, letters and numbers, are unidentified, factory internal quality marks, serving then to identify the craftsman who perhaps made a blunder.
That “seesaw” front sight was apparently a Haenel special order feature. I have seen this sight on several Haenel marked rifles, not only on M1900s and 1909s, but on M88 ones too.

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: kuduae]
      #255241 - 16/10/14 05:48 AM

Thank you kuduae,

I really appreciate your detailed information above. Thank you ever so much.

I have done a chamber cast, and there are no remnant tool marks in the neck area that would indicate rechambering from the shorter necked 10.75x63 caliber.



However, the rifling appears to start very abruptly at the case mouth, with little or no lead or freebore. I don't know if this would be typical for a 10.75x68 chambering, or if this would indicate a recut chamber from a shorter 10.75x57 earlier caliber.

I have some vintage 10.75x68 RWS factory ammunition, in both soft point and solids, which fit easily into the existing chamber with no signs of the chamber rifling touching the factory seated bullets.



So maybe this rifle was originally made in 10.75x68 and someone added the "10.75 X 68" marking to better identify the caliber.

It is nice to know that the rifle was made between 1912-1914.

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255242 - 16/10/14 06:14 AM

when you measure different 10,75x68 cartridges and bullets you will find that the cylindrical 10,75 mm part of the bullet will end on the case mouth. the ogival part of the bullet will reach into the rifling but dont touch it so you dont have problem's to load it into your gun.
however the 10,75x68 have a free bore when the chamber is cut with the correct tool and I would give the rifle to someone with such a chamber reamer. its not original anymore so don't risk anything.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255243 - 16/10/14 06:44 AM

Hello lanchaster,

Do you have such a Haenel M1900 rifle in 10.75x68 caliber? Have you done a chamber cast that shows a freebore? Otherwise, this is just your opinion, is it not?

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Huvius
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255244 - 16/10/14 07:18 AM

Quote:

Hello lanchaster,

Do you have such a Haenel M1900 rifle in 10.75x68 caliber? Have you done a chamber cast that shows a freebore? Otherwise, this is just your opinion, is it not?



May be just an opinion, but I can tell you from experience with a 318WR rebore/rechamber to 35 Whelen (which also had the rifling right from the case mouth) that unless you want to flatten primers you may want to consider it.

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255265 - 16/10/14 01:52 PM

Quote:

Hello lanchaster,

Do you have such a Haenel M1900 rifle in 10.75x68 caliber? Have you done a chamber cast that shows a freebore? Otherwise, this is just your opinion, is it not?



no, not my opinion


please see the CIP measurments for the 10,75x68 which are coming from the old german factory standards:
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/tabical-en-page74.pdf

on the right side under "Chamber Mini" in the section "Commencement of Rifling" the free bore starts with 10,82mm and ends after 30 mm at 10,45mm/10,75mm lands/groove diameter.

and this is the minimum

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255268 - 16/10/14 02:53 PM

Hello Lanchaster,

Thank you,

But if that were the case ... would there not be evidence of freebore showing from an origianl chambering of the 10.75x57, since there is only 11mm difference between 57mm and 68mm?

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lancaster
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255314 - 17/10/14 02:26 AM

thats a good question but you have to remember the time it was made. before 1914 there were no real industry standards for cartridges and chamber dimension. there was a first attempt to normalize some catridges and the 10,75x68 was imho one of them but it was an early start and not a law everyone had to watch.
the free bore was not seen as important in the old times. here is a chamber cast of 20/40 rifle barrel taken from a combination gun by Funk in Suhl.


this gun have damascus barrels and is Blackpowder Only it was probably made in the 1890s. you see that there is also no free bore just a short cone to come from the chamber ( the black line show the case mouth) down to rifling. this gun was made for thick wall paper shells.
with blackpowder loads pressure spikes are not the problem but I think there was trial and error over a long time before the free bore was seen as important for holding the pressure down. your rifle could be absolut safe without a free bore but I would feel more comfortabel shooting it with a correct chamber.
to answer your question I have made chamber cast's with paraffin


you see the chamber of 10,75x68 made in 1950 in france, a RWS 10,75x68, a 10,75x57 handload and a chamber cast from a 1930s Gustav Genschow M 98


the pen shows the beginning of the rifling it starts low and become deeper than so it was a real cone

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/10/14 03:08 AM)

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buckstix
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: lancaster]
      #255318 - 17/10/14 03:13 AM

Hello lanchaster,

Thank you for the information, and taking the time to make chamber casts. I'm hoping to do some test firing later today with this rifle, and also my 1898 Mauser Model B in the same caliber for comparison. I'll compare the velocities and the fired cases and see what I can learn.

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kuduae
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Re: I need help determining mfg date - C.G.HAENEL 10.75x68 [Re: buckstix]
      #255322 - 17/10/14 04:13 AM

buckstix asked the same question on at least three different forums and thus started three seperate, different discussions. As I deem this a d... nui....., muddling up things only, I will post my comments about this matter on the GGCA Forum only, see:
http://www.germanguns.com/upload/showthr...p=4011#post4011

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