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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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HuntingSchneider
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Loc: Tamworth, NSW
My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25"
      #219360 - 09/11/12 11:33 PM

Well, it's finally in my hot little hands.

This is my Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle chambered in .450 NE 3.25".

Some of you may remember me asking about loads for it in a previous thread, as it is proofed for 65gr cordite - 440gr max.
I've come up with some loads with AR2213SC. Starting at 88gr and going to 95gr. See how it goes with preasure signs on the Fed 215 primers. Hawk 440gr projies finished the sexy round.

Some may say it's ugly, but I think they have a beauty of their own. Very unconventional looking but in reality they are very similar to the Mauser 66 in the way the bolt functions.

They were Cogswell & Harrisons attempt to break into the big game bolt action market.
They were trying to compete with Mannlicher and Mauser in presenting an affordable big game rifle. In a bolt gun.
The others were developing cartridges to fit their actions. These guys went the other way and developed a rifle to fit the big NE cartridges. They were chambered in the .450 NE 3.25" and the .450/400 NE 3.25 cartridges.

After contacting Cogswell & Harrison with the serial number, I was informed that "this rifle was completed by our craftsmen on the 17th of July 1905".

Now I need a chance to go out and put a few rounds through it. I think that it will, due to lack of any decent weight, beat the crap out of me.























.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

Edited by HuntingSchneider (09/11/12 11:47 PM)

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HistoricBore
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #219363 - 10/11/12 01:22 AM

I have tried a couple of these in Rook rifle calibres, and they seem very well made. Of course recoil wasn't a problem....... Take the Asprin before you shoot.

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AkMike
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HistoricBore]
      #219374 - 10/11/12 04:13 AM

Are the 2 lugs at the front of the bolt the only lock up?

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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lancaster
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: AkMike]
      #219375 - 10/11/12 04:21 AM

fascinating!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Huvius
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: lancaster]
      #219382 - 10/11/12 07:44 AM

Looks like there is a lug under the bolt handle root although it also looks like the magazine runs all the way up to the loading ramp so maybe that lug only bites over on the righthand side under the bolt root when the bolt is closed.
If it does have the third lug and it has a good lockup with the action body, it has as many as a Mauser although all within an inch of each other.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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AkMike
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Huvius]
      #219397 - 10/11/12 03:00 PM

Interesting! What's the purpose of the hook deal on the right rear? I'd love to look it over for a bit..

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: AkMike]
      #219398 - 10/11/12 03:55 PM



The hook at the back is the safety. It rotates 180 degrees to the rear.

As for looking it over, you are more than welcome. But it would be a long drive.....




.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #219402 - 10/11/12 05:21 PM

I know.. But it'd be fun!

A quick search for another just a touch closer found this one.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Cogswel...un_id=100084549

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Rule303
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #219422 - 10/11/12 09:37 PM

Your right it is butt ugly but facinating. It is an unusual action. How does it feed, extract, smooth or otherwise. have you shot it yet and how does it shoot.

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Rule303]
      #219432 - 11/11/12 02:23 AM

Quote:

Your right it is butt ugly but facinating. It is an unusual action. How does it feed, extract, smooth or otherwise. have you shot it yet and how does it shoot.



I have not shot it yet. Won't have a chance untill Thursday.

Just working the bolt is uber smooth.




.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Claydog
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #219498 - 12/11/12 01:55 PM

look forward to hearing how it shoots, ive never seen anything quite like it.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Claydog]
      #219558 - 13/11/12 08:03 PM

It looks like the extractor and ejector (extended lip on the magazine) are both on the same side (left hand side). On a standard Mauser action, these two are on opposite sides (the extractor is on the right hand side). Be interested to read how this works after you get the chance to run some rounds/cases through it.

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #226833 - 11/03/13 11:47 PM

I realized that I had not put up the videos of the first firing (for me), so here goes.

The magazine almost snatches the cartridges from your fingers.
I was a bit apprehensive at the first shot. Double check that the bolt handle is down. Relax and go with it, just in case something gives. Second shot bit better.
Third and fourth show just how quick that huge bolt can be manipulated. Snap shooting it was snappy (no pun intended) but fun. Accuracy was pretty good. I was shooting at a spot on the base of a tree at about 60 odd metres. Normally I wouldn't shoot at living trees, but this one was being cut down within the next couple of days before it fell during the next rain and caused a block in the gully.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/-PqVYEEAVmA



Sorry about the crappy quality. I forgot the camera and did this with the phone.




.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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casper50
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #226841 - 12/03/13 02:00 AM

I've been tempted by a few of these at the auctions but I just can't get over how ugly they are. If I didn't like it I don't think that I could sell it.

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500Boswell
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: casper50]
      #226866 - 12/03/13 09:12 AM

Martini and Haghn has, or had on of these for sale

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Ash
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: 500Boswell]
      #238948 - 07/12/13 10:03 PM

Do you still own this rifle? I think i remember seeing one on Usedguns?

Cheers

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Ash]
      #238955 - 08/12/13 04:07 AM

I did list it on usedguns, but still have it. Two guys who contacted me thought it was a bolt action double.

It's still for sale if anybody is interested.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

Edited by HuntingSchneider (08/12/13 05:27 AM)

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Ash
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #238965 - 08/12/13 09:41 AM

Sent you a PM, pretty sure I'd have to sell a couple to fund it though.

How'd you go at getting it to shoot to sights? What other bullets have you tried, what speeds were you getting?

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Ash]
      #239040 - 10/12/13 01:26 AM

Quote:

Sent you a PM, pretty sure I'd have to sell a couple to fund it though.

How'd you go at getting it to shoot to sights? What other bullets have you tried, what speeds were you getting?



I've only used the 440gr RN. I haven't tried anything else.
They shoot to the sights as well as I can shoot.
I can't find my notes, but from memory I was getting about 2125 f/s with the dacron (1 grain on the powder charge) loads and a varying 1950-2075 f/s with the dacronless loads.

After a bit of searching, I've found these videos which I have now uploaded onto youtube.

This is me Chronographing the C&H Certus .450 Nitro

This is a mates young bloke Ben, shooting it for the first time. Scrawny little bloke is quite flexible, isn't he?





.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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Ash
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #239077 - 10/12/13 06:27 PM

Looks like she boots!
What are the sights to?

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Ash
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Ash]
      #239758 - 25/12/13 06:51 PM

She boots!

Thanks for letting me come down and shoot your rifles, *warning, standard gun forum pun* I had a blast!
This gun kicks, damn that flinch, though it was semi funny. That bolt would take some getting used to, you handle this like a pro.

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HuntingSchneider
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Reged: 02/04/06
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Ash]
      #239766 - 26/12/13 12:53 AM



You're more than welcome. It's always a pleasure to see others enjoying these old girls.

That flinch was pretty funny, until I did the same. Though there is no video record for mine.



.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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xausa
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #239768 - 26/12/13 03:52 AM

It would appear that this rifle is what gave Walter Gehmann the idea for his Mauser 66, except he eliminated the idea of locking lug recesses in the action and instead located them in the barrel extension. He also used a telescoping bolt and was able to locate the bolt handle much farther to the rear.

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Ash
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: xausa]
      #239777 - 26/12/13 10:20 AM

Having just come from using a Certus I'm still going to say it Xausa, the model 66 is a strange gun, heck, telescopic bolt? It's stranger!

Yeah HS, you're lucky my phone was out of memory =P

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kuduae
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: Ash]
      #239788 - 26/12/13 10:17 PM

Quote (Xausa): It would appear that this rifle is what gave Walter Gehmann the idea for his Mauser 66,

Most likely both Cogswell & Harrison and W.Gehmann were influenced by Louis Schlegelmilch's 1893 design. At least Gehmann knew this action. Louis Schlegelmilch, master gunsmith at Spandau arsenal, had designed the bolt of the M88 Commission rifle which, with minor alterations, was also used in the turnbolt Mannlicher and Mannlicher-Schoenauer actions. In 1893 he designed a novel action, the turnbolt inside a dust cover sliding on receiver rails and locking into a barrel extension with two locking lugs. Only about half a dozen prototypes of this action were ever made, three of them going to the collection of Kaiser Wilhelm II. These rifles were described in "Der Waffenschmied" No.17, Spring 2003, a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association, www.germanguns.com . Here is the cover photo of that Waffenschmied issue:

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lancaster
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: kuduae]
      #239803 - 27/12/13 08:34 PM

interesting
what caliber had the rifles for his majesty? one of course in 8x57I but what were the other?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Re: My Cogswell & Harrison Certus rifle in .450 NE 3.25" [Re: lancaster]
      #239805 - 28/12/13 04:39 AM

Quote (Lancaster):
what caliber had the rifles for his majesty? one of course in 8x57I but what were the other?

All four known Schlegelmilch rifles are in 8x57I, the most up to date cartridge in Germany 1893.
Two sporting rifles with 63.5 cm = 25" barrels, serial numbers 1 and 2, and a carbine with 48 cm = 19" barrel, #3, from the Kaiser's collection were described in "Der Waffenschmied No.17", still available from the GGCA bookstore. A fourth surfaced in Germany, a carbine with 45 cm = 18" barrel, serial # 2 too. It was described by Wirnsberger in DWJ 12/2003.
Louis Schlegelmilch had four patents covering features of his action, DRP 75559, 76257, 76650 and 78545. The most important here is DRP 78545 for a "Gewehr - Cylinderverschluss, bei welchem letzterer (unter Fortfall der Gewehrhülse) auf einer Schiene gleitet." = a rifle bolt, which (without a tubular receiver) slides on rails. You may find it here:

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000078545A

Note that not only the Mauser 66 and the Cogswell & Harrison, but several ultra-modern rifles by Blaser, Merkel, Sauer & Sohn and others copy features once patented by Schlegelmilch. Some use the bolt cover sliding on rails, but many more use the bolt lockup directly into the barrel, without a receiver ring.

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