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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mcb
.224 member


Reged: 18/12/03
Posts: 24
Loc: Ohio, USA
Recoil Comparing, opinions please.
      #10157 - 26/02/04 04:58 AM

I have been looking for a big bore rifle and am trying to get a feel for the recoil. I have shot one big bore and would like you guys to tell me how some other cartridges would compare.

A friend of mine has a Ruger bolt action in 416 Rigby. I have fired a handful of rounds through that. It was a heavy but in a standing position very manageable. The two rifles I am interested in are the 375 H&H and the 458Win/458Lot both in a bolt action.

I had a chance to pick up a pre 64 Winchester model 70 in 375 H&H and passed. I will probably be kicking myself for that one. The guy was asking $2200 for it. It was in pretty good shape no major dings or marks. But I was unsure if that was a good price.

He also had a 1917 Enfield rechambered in 458win for $900 but I do not like the ‘cock on the push’ of the 1917. If it had been a Mauser conversion it would have been mine.

So I would love to here how you compare the recoil of the 375 and the 458 to the 416.

Thanks
mcb

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10160 - 26/02/04 05:09 AM

To me, the two softer rounds are the 375 H&H and the 458 WinMag, one good shove. When you go up in the energy level like the 416 and above, it comes back at you a bit faster. They all are manageable if you have the right frame of mind when you light them off. The toughest to sight in on the bench has been 458 Lott but I was lucky to get it done under 10 rounds with my QD mounts and scope. Most of the big boys should be shot off hand anyways.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: 475Guy]
      #10163 - 26/02/04 05:37 AM

I see little difference in a 375 and a 416 Rigby or Remington, in the recoil department..I do see a lot of difference in the 458 Lott, that is where the word recoil is redefined...

In the real world of hunting one must shoot from varied and awkard postions and the 458 Lott and up can literally knock the snot out of you...Most 458 Lotts only get shot at the range or take up space in someones gun cabinet while they claim the recoil is merely a maidens carress, not so IMO......furthermore I cannot imagine anything that I could not kill with a 416, and have done so...

A 375 H&H in 99% condition will bring $2000 to $2200. with hang tags and as new or new will bring $3500. In the condition you describe which seems to be about 90%, I would give $1500 ot $1600. for it..but not sight unseen.

The pre 64 Win. or a good used custom Mauser set up correctly is a far better rifle than anything on the new modern market IMO...

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Trex
.224 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 32
Loc: North Texas, USA
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: atkinson6]
      #10168 - 26/02/04 07:58 AM

I agree with Ray. However, I am glad of my Lott when hunting buffalo or lion. It does kick like a lightening bolt to the head . . . but I think that it hurts the buff a bit more than me! He is correct in stating that the 416 (I prefer Rigby but that is just me) can and does kill anything on African soil without all the recoil of the Lott. However, if you are really concerned with recoil you could simply mag-na-port the rifle and be done with it.

Regards
Trex

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BigBore2
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: atkinson6]
      #10184 - 26/02/04 12:41 PM

Ray, How would compare the recoil of the 458 lott to a 460 weatherby with a muzzle brake? Thanks for your time.
regards Mike

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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holland465
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 71
Loc: California
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10297 - 27/02/04 08:18 PM

Don't knock the Enfield you mentioned. Any gunsmith can install a cock on opening kit and when it comes down to strength, the Enfield is at the top of the list.

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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: holland465]
      #10352 - 28/02/04 02:49 PM

Big Bore 2,
I think they recoil about the same braked or not braked when shot with max loads, or maybe I go numb at that point.

I have shot the Lott a good deal and shot a few Buffalo with it and it certainly kills them, but then so do the lesser calibers...It sure does kick

I had my old buddy George Hoffmans 460 Wby Custom Dakota #1 presentation Rifle around here for several months prior to his untimly death...I developed a great respect for the cartridge..I discovered I could load it down to about 2250 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet and the pressure was probably 38000 PSI and the recoil was about like a 300 Win or 9.3x62 in that huge case..It was an amazment to me..It could be the answer to a lot of questions IMO....An amazing cartridge.

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JoeR
.224 member


Reged: 19/01/04
Posts: 41
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10375 - 28/02/04 11:53 PM

mcb, good site for recoil calculator is http://sstbenchrest.com/recoil.html Some sample data, all assuming 9.5 lb rifle: 375 with 300 gr. @ 2600 fps-45 foot-pounds at 17 fps. 458 WM, 500 gr. @ 2114 fps- 59 foot-pounds @ 20 fps. 416 Rigby with 400 gr. @ 2390fps- 61 foot punds @ 20 fps. 458 Lott, 500 gr. @ 2300 fps- 71 foot-pounds @ 22fps. Joe.

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JoeR
.224 member


Reged: 19/01/04
Posts: 41
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10376 - 28/02/04 11:58 PM

Sorry, link is http://sst.benchrest.com/recoil.html

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: JoeR]
      #10577 - 02/03/04 07:23 AM

the problem with recoil calculators is they simply do not work for beans....Felt recoil is an individual thing, as much as I have shot I don't like the 458 Lott and up recoil..I can shoot them but I sure have to think about each shot and thats not good....

Stock design and a multitude of other things come into play, such as how you feel that day, what position you are shooting from, what powder your using, and mostly how much you shoot during the year, and have you been shooting larger guns prior to shooting the one your shooting now...If you want to be able to shoot a 416 Rem , then shoot the 458 Lott a bunch, then go back and shoot a 416, you will think you died and went to heaven, VIOLA, the 416 has become a maidens caress...

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: atkinson6]
      #10584 - 02/03/04 08:11 AM

There you go with your "Maiden's Caress" again. You must have had some bruisers for maidens when you were growing up.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: atkinson6]
      #10599 - 02/03/04 09:50 AM

Ray,

There is no doubt you are right about firing the big rifle reduces the apparent recoil of the smaller rifle even though the smaller rifle has a big kick such as the 416 Remington.

There is another observation I have made with 375 shooters at our rifle range. If the shooter has a lot of interest in big bores (but has not used or owned them) and is very conscious of the fact that a 375 is in reality only a medium powered gun the recoil to that shooter seems far less than it is for the shooter who thinks the 375 is a cannon. In other words Cartridges of the World plus reading Big Bore forums can reduces the apparent recoil of a 375.

Mike

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JKS
.224 member


Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Mount Vernon, WA, USA
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: Mike375]
      #10609 - 02/03/04 10:28 AM

I agree with Mike and differ a little with Ray .

I do not have the many years(many, many years!)of big bore experience that Ray has, and find a noticeable recoil increase of the 416 Rigby over the 375 H&H. I can shoot the 375 like a "regular" rifle where with the 416 I have to get into my "big bore mode" and pull it into me more. Load development and bench time is fun with the 375 but is tiresome on the 416. The 375 is a sweetheart!

I recently purchased a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott and found it to be just what you knowledgeable folks said it was. A big step up in power from what I was used to. It is a hoot and I love it but from the bench it can be tough (way above the 416). I don't down load it, just use 500 grainers at 2250-2300 (I have my smaller rifles to shoot if I don't want to get smacked around a bit!).

I really think you need all 3 calibers! Seriously I wouldn't be without a 375. Great rifle that will pretty much do it all and will be a great "entry" biggish bore. If you handload then download the that 458 Lott and work your way up. I love the big bores!

John

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PAHunter
.224 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Allentown, PA USA
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10615 - 02/03/04 11:13 AM

Hi MCB:

I like to shoot the big bores. I have my 375 H&H breaked, but I bought it that way. I have a custom break on my 416 Rem Mag, I had that installed. I have a Ruger 458 Win Mag, no break, and just a lil red hard recoil pad and it kicks less than my 416 Rem Mag.

I also have a custom 458 Lott, weighing 12 lbs. It has two mercury recoil tubes in the stock with a muzzle break and a desellerator recoil pad, and from the bench it ROCKS my WORLD. Nine or ten shots seems to be my limit from a to low bench. Thats a 500 grain @ 2350 FPS.... ouch Standing up it is much better, but I have met my match with the 458 Lott.

Regards... Jim P.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1406
Loc: United States
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: 475Guy]
      #10645 - 02/03/04 02:55 PM

I had a "maiden" carress me with four knuckles once. All I did was run my hand up her leg while crawling on all fours, drunk, at a party. She carressed me several times, as a matter of fact.

That said, I would rather have a 375 or 416 Rigby carress me than my 338! That 338 brings back memories of those four knuckles...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: luv2safari]
      #10648 - 02/03/04 02:59 PM

Just tell me, was it worth the caress?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1406
Loc: United States
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: 475Guy]
      #10654 - 02/03/04 04:32 PM

Well...not exactly,...indirectly, however, it was well worth it. But, that's another story...She had a sister who took pitty on me, who later became a beauty contest winner. She became Miss Sierra Nevada...for obvious reasons. She had twin peaks that were volcanos ...her name was Alice...But, as I said, that's another story.

And, yes this is appropriate for this forum...big guns & heavy calibers...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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DPhillips
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: mcb]
      #10800 - 03/03/04 05:45 PM

Well, having owned a 416 Rigby and having shot a 458 Winny on several seperate ocassions, I really didn't show the 500 Jeff the respect I should have the first time I squeezed the trigger on a live round. It was, er, surprising I guess you could say. A .510" bullet weighing 535 grains accelerating to 2,400 fps in a 10 lb rifle did get my attention in a hurry.

I still haven't practiced with it enough to be proficient in a dangerous game situation, but I'm working on it.

I've taken to shooting two shot groups with it for the time being. Duane built a heck of rifle, I don't think I've ever handled one as well made as it. And it is accurate, even with me shooting it. After 6 shots at the range last weekend, I was feeling a little punch drunk, but enjoy the hell out of it.

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Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: DPhillips]
      #10803 - 03/03/04 06:31 PM

DPhillips

It is really one special rifle.

Mike

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: DPhillips]
      #10811 - 03/03/04 10:12 PM

DPhillips
In your 500 Jeffery, which has the worst recoil, the 535gr at 2400 or a 570grain at @2150fps?

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DavidAk311
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Reged: 28/01/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Alaska
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: DPhillips]
      #10822 - 04/03/04 04:24 AM

DPhillips,

That is an awesome rifle..I'm glad to see you're enjoying it!

dave

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Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: NE450No2]
      #10824 - 04/03/04 04:27 AM

Not DPhillips, but my experience is the heavier the bullet the more it kicks. The 535 Woodliegh at 2550 fps kicks less than a 600 gr Woodleigh at 2350 fps, I can attest to that.

Scott

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: NE450No2]
      #10829 - 04/03/04 04:57 AM

Thanks guys, I appreciate the comments.

I've not shot any other loads other than the 535's. That's enough for right now. Waiting on dies and other reloading supplies, so I've been shooting the ammunition that Duane had loaded up for it. There are a few 600 grain Barnes solids in there, I believe (loud-n-boomer at AR loaded these) they were chrono'ed around 2200 fps, but I could be wrong. Haven't shot any of those yet, nor do I intend to for awhile.

The recoil in this rifle isn't enough to bruise you with a light coat on, but when a 5'10" 160 lb small-framed fella like myself touches one off, it is "noticeable".

I have to put in a plug for Duane. We met at the ACGG show this year and even though I was a nobody, he treated me as family. He invited my wife and I to sit at his table during the Awards Banquet and was a great host. That means a lot to an Alaskan boy that traveled so far and had no connection to anyone there, but we never felt like a 5th wheel. Forrest Bruch, Dave Bieber, and the rest of Duane's crew treated us very well, also. I can't say enough about any of them. I can't say enough about the craftsmanship of the rifle either. I'm not a gunmaker, but have owned enough firearms to really appreciate something so special. Everytime I pick it up, I'm amazed at the quality and care that went into building it.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: DPhillips]
      #10843 - 04/03/04 08:50 AM

That is very light for that caliber, and pay particular attention to that punchy feeling, your brain is telling you that your in the red zone...

Never believe for a moment that the slamming of your brain inside the cranial cavity is not dangerous, it is..it will actually make you punchy, just like a boxer according to some brain surgeons I have talked to while on Safari...

Perhaps some of the good doctors on this board could enlighten us on the subject, as my knowledge is strictly heresay..

That has a lot to do with why I shoot the 404, 416 most of the time as I KNOW the big bores will lend to Bursitas ect. and it has effected me pretty darn bad in my later years.

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Recoil Comparing, opinions please. [Re: atkinson6]
      #10846 - 04/03/04 09:11 AM

Thanks for the info, Ray. Tell you the truth, I've never experienced that before, but will keep the sessions short until I perfect my form (which is probably poor) and handle it better.

I'm not smart enough as it is, I don't need to lose any brain cells or get any dumber!

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