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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 405 win questions [Re: Anonymous]
      #43959 - 14/12/05 10:55 AM

ScottS,

Whats got your panties in a bunch?

And solids work fine for buff, or haven't you tried them?

JPK

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43961 - 14/12/05 11:33 AM

JPK,

In reply to:

ScottS,

Whats got your panties in a bunch?



Nothing, but I was afraid you might be getting into that condition, I am glad to understand that definitely isn't the case.

In reply to:

And solids work fine for buff, or haven't you tried them?



I have seen solids used, but I prefer Woodleigh soft points. In my experience the softs work exponentially better, if your definition of work is getting the animal down quickly with a minimal number of shots taken.

Scott

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #43964 - 14/12/05 12:31 PM

I've killed three buff, all with solids. Was ready to use Woodleigh softs but the PH asked me not too since he had seen too many issues of one sort or another. His main beef was the soft, shot from a frontal angle, sliding along on the outside of the ribs and not penetrating. He had seen this more than a couple of times. His boss also favored solids for the same reasons.

With solids, death comes very quickly when the shot is true. Calibre size streams of gushing blood. Lungs shredded from secondary projectiles - the shoulder bone fragments in particular. Major vessels above the heart likewise a wreck, the heart still pumping blood, but it has nowhere to go but out.

BTW, and I'm sure you know but .510" Woodleigh softs in 570grs and 600grs have an upper velocity recomendation of 2200fps. Have you had any issues like over expansion at 2350fps? Have all passed through? Any recoveries?

I don't believe in shock as a killer. Though I believe it happens with smaller animals fairly frequently. I want to rely on blood loss. A 150lb deer might be killed fairly often by shock from say a 100 or 150 grain bullet. I think it the rare case when a 1500lb cape buffalo is killed by shock with a 300 or 400 or 500 or 600grain bullet. Death by blood loss is a 100% killer, so long as the bullet penetrates to hit heart, lungs, the great vessels, liver.

JPK

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43966 - 14/12/05 01:07 PM

JPK,

I have 5 recovered 570 gr Woodleigh soft points. All are from head on head shots. The bullets penetrated the skull, scrabbled the ol' brains, popped out the eyes, and ended up in the shoulders. That is something like 2' to 2.5' of penetration through some of the toughest bone. The others have been broadside or quartering shots and all passed through leaving very large exit wounds (lets call it 2.5' to 4' of penetration). A heart shot with a 570 gr soft will completely explode the heart, ie there is only black snot and meat fragments left where the heart used to be. They don't bleed much when that happens, and they don't go far either.

Scott

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #43983 - 14/12/05 04:25 PM

Interesting,how did the Woodleighs look and what did they weigh, after the fact?

500 Grains brained a cow buff this Oct with a 570 grain Woodleigh soft. He reported 14 -15" of penetration and a mangled bellet - but a dead buff, none the less.

I have not shot for the heart on a buff, but a little higher. I like the idea of hitting bone.

JPK

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #43987 - 15/12/05 12:17 AM

JPK,

They get pretty mangled. One of them lost everything forward of the cannelure, after punching through several inches of solid bone. Perhaps the extra 250 fps accounted for the greater penetration. The bullets all stopped at the neck to shoulder area, penetrating slightly into the shoulder (couple of inches or so). I haven't weighed them but I would estimate weight retention between 45% and 60%. The penetration is rather mute though since they only needed a few inches to scramble the brains and end the discussion. On body hits they have penetrated over 4' of buffalo before. I have been told of nearly 6' of penetration on lengthwise body hits, but I cannot verify that.

As I stated earlier, use solids if you like, but I recommend you bring plenty of ammo as you may need it. I will rely upon my small experience of 25 years and use soft points in a 50 caliber rifle. There is good reason that the Hague Convention mandates the use of non-expanding bullets and bans the use of expanding bullets for warefare.

Scott

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #43996 - 15/12/05 03:17 AM

On the Hague Convention, yes, but the goal of an army is to render the other army's soldiers incapable of fighting. This does not neccesarily mean dead. A destroyed leg, arm, foot, hand...And a wounded soldier is a greater drain to a civilized opponent than a dead one.

FWIW, two of my buff required only one shot, but both got a total of three for insurance. The third I hit too far to the rear while huffing and puffing, should have passed on the shot. This one required some tracking and killing.

I'm actually in the camp of soft first, at least for most angles, solid thereafter. I shoot a double so would have the instant choice. But the PH wanted all solids and I deffered to his experience and wishes and found they worked just fine, and certainly better than I expected.

JPK

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: JPK]
      #44002 - 15/12/05 04:08 AM

JPK,

I am glad that you have had good luck with the solids. The soft point versus solids debate is an old one, and we certainly will not resolve it today. In my experience the caliber and construction of the bullet has a significant impact on how well it will hold together, and these design constraints directly affect (or should anyway) the decision to go with solid or soft point.

The Hague convention has little to do with:

In reply to:

but the goal of an army is to render the other army's soldiers incapable of fighting. This does not neccesarily mean dead. A destroyed leg, arm, foot, hand...And a wounded soldier is a greater drain to a civilized opponent than a dead one.





It has to do with minimizing the number of young men butchered in war (mutilation evidently was considered preferrable to death by the Hague convention). Your comments are what was used to win over the so-called civilized nations of the world to agree to the treaty. Unfortunately, the truth is that one wins a war only one way, make the enemy die to the point he doesn't want to die anymore. Wound him and he will recover and come back to fight another day. It is done everyday all over the world.

The goal of any victorious western army is the kill the enemy until he surrenders while minimizing the casualities on it's side. Killing is how wars are won, sad but true.

Regards,
Scott

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rbrtdun
.224 member


Reged: 12/01/06
Posts: 1
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: 405 win questions [Re: DarylS]
      #50402 - 21/02/06 01:56 AM

What bullet is available for the .405 in 300 gr. weight that is tougher than the Hornady? From what I am reading, the Hornady bullets are basicly for small light weight animals. If you go for larger animals, even moose, elk or the big bears, looks like something else would be needed. Does the Woodleigh 400 gr in .411 diameter work for the .405?
Thanks

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: 405 win questions [Re: rbrtdun]
      #50434 - 21/02/06 06:51 AM

You can also get the 300 grain Barnes X, 300 grain North Fork and 360 grain North Fork.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 405 win questions [Re: rbrtdun]
      #50435 - 21/02/06 07:17 AM


Woodleigh make a 300gn bullet for the 405 Winchester.

And yes, I can't see any reason you can't use a .411" 400gn bullet
in a .412" 405 Winchester.

Velocity may be a tad slow unless it is in a Ruger No 1.

500 Nitro

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: rbrtdun]
      #50440 - 21/02/06 10:35 AM

I'll second the 300gr Woodleigh. I shoot it in my Winchester 1895 (405 Win) at around 2400 fps. I also load and shoot the 400gr (0.411" dia) Woodleigh in my Winchester at 2050+fps. The only issue the 400 gr Woodleigh in the Winchester is the cannelure is too far back toward the base to allow crimping AND fitting the cartridge into the magazine. I have both flattened the nose and re-cannelured bullets with equal success. The maximum cartridge overall length that my Winchester will handle is 3.170" (others way vary). I would NOT recommend loading cartridges in the Winchester which are longer than the magazine will accept, as there seems to be precious little throat/freebore in the Winchester's chamber.

By the way, both of those loads (300gr and 400 gr) are hotter than SAAMI spec (they run around 60 ksi) so I strongly recommend working your way up to them. Also Hodgdon powder has load data for the 400gr Woodleigh on their website.

Scott

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Bwanaclark
.224 member


Reged: 20/05/06
Posts: 24
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #58535 - 09/06/06 02:55 AM

I’ve settled on the X-Bullet for my 95 Winchester in 405. I worked up to the max load listed by Hodgdon, 55 grains Varget with the 300 grain X-Bullet (Hornady cases, Winchester WLR primers). This gives me an average 2150fps, almost exactly what the data suggested it would and about what I get with the factory Hornady flat nose loads. This load is accurate in the extreme in my rifle, tearing one big ragged hole at 100 yards. I hope to use this on Lion in the Moyowosi this summer.

I got some Woodleigh 400 grain solids and made up a couple of pilot rounds to check fit. When crimped at the cannelure I got it to fit into the magazine well enough, but the throat is too short to accommodate the longer bullet. Since I was running out of time for the hunt this summer I tabled the experiments with the heavier bullets for now.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: 405 win questions [Re: ScottS]
      #59295 - 26/06/06 01:31 PM

In reply to:

BillinOregon, if you would like some load data I can supply it for the 405 Winnie and 300gr pills as well as 400 gr Woodleighs. I have used Rel7, IMR3031, W748, IMR4895, and maybe one or two others. You can get to 2000+ fps safely with a 400 gr Woodleigh in the M1895 Winchester, but that is about it. I suppose if you really like high pressure loads you can get it to 2100+ fps in a No.1, but like I said they would be high pressure indeed (~ 70 ksi I would think). Send me a PM and I will share what I have in my reloading notes.





That is the bigest load of BS I've ever read on NE! Of course, that is only my opinion!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Re: 405 win questions [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #59310 - 27/06/06 02:29 AM

Mac,

In reply to:

That is the bigest load of BS I've ever read on NE! Of course, that is only my opinion!



Those are mighty nasty words for NE! My my is all I can say.

With that I bid this website farewell also. John please terminate my membership, as a public service to Mac there and his ilk.

Scott

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