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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
BIG, BIG Bores
      #28028 - 20/03/05 09:20 AM

I took my Andrews to Champlin Firearms and had J. J. Peradoux work on the extractor today. While there, he let me in the vault to drool over all the H&H, Purdy, WR, Grant, etc., doubles. There was a .700NE there...what a horse. It weighed 18lbs. They also had a .600NE and a .577 damascus gun, too. Sure were fun to play with. They also had THE H&H that Robert Redford used in Out of Africa. What a lovely rifle. No price tag.

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: 1885]
      #28029 - 20/03/05 10:58 AM

In reply to:

There was a .700NE there...what a horse. It weighed 18lbs.


I've never been fortunate enough to handle a 700 NE double but I have no doubt they're big and heavy.
A week or so back I received a gift from a client who hunted with me last year.
The gift was a 700 NE cartridge for my collection.
I've owned a 600 NE cartridge for over 20 years and have seen and handled a 700 round before, but honestly you tend to forget just how huge they really are!
The difference in appearence between 577 and 600 is not all that great, but from 600 to 700 is massive!

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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: 4seventy]
      #28058 - 21/03/05 02:10 AM

I didn't get to see the cartridge but I can imagine it is a real monster. They also had an 8-bore double...that thing was a real big boy, too. I can't imagine using any of those huge rifles. No way I could lug one around for any length of time. Guess that's why they had porters and gun bearers in those days.

Sure am looking forward to getting my Andrews shooting. Think I'll order some Woodleighs from Midway and some of the 300gr. .025" jackets from Hawk. It slugs at .408" so their bullets should be just right. Probably use both 4831 and RL15 to see which it likes best.

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Oldsarge
.300 member


Reged: 07/02/05
Posts: 180
Loc: SoCal Borderlands
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: 1885]
      #28059 - 21/03/05 04:11 AM

" They also had an 8-bore double...that thing was a real big boy, too. I can't imagine using any of those huge rifles. No way I could lug one around for any length of time. Guess that's why they had porters and gun bearers in those days."

Well, yeah! The huge black-powder (and the oversize NE) rifles were never meant to be a standard hunting weapon. They were designed as the life insurance policies of the time. When things went south, you traded your Farquarson .450/400 for the big gauge rifle with your very trustworthy gunbearer and shot your way out of trouble. Romantic notions bedamned. No self-respecting bwana marched for weeks through the bush carrying such a beast!

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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1885
.275 member


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 92
Loc: Edmond, OK, USA
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Oldsarge]
      #28067 - 21/03/05 07:56 AM

Life insurance policy for who...the hunter or the game (ha)! I'm not sure I want to fire one of those things even if they weigh 18 pounds. Hard to climb a tree to get away from an irritated critter with a dislocated shoulder!

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mbogo
.224 member


Reged: 21/05/04
Posts: 15
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: 1885]
      #28069 - 21/03/05 09:19 AM

My girlfriend's father has a hobby farm with American Bison and European Oxen. A friend of his wanted to shoot one of the buffalo with his 4 bore hammer double. They let him and the ballistics are worthless. There is no penetration with those bullets. One would think they could throw a baseball faster than that double. The bull was simply irritated because he had a bullet the size of my thumb sticking 3 inches beneath his skin. They had to back up and finish off the buffalo with shots from a 300 Win Mag. Those huge bores are definitely collector pieces but have no practical use.

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Oldsarge
.300 member


Reged: 07/02/05
Posts: 180
Loc: SoCal Borderlands
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: mbogo]
      #28071 - 21/03/05 09:45 AM

Which is why the .450 NE took Africa and India by storm! It works better. Supersize black powder rifles are for nostalgia-struck hobbiests who never have to shoot anything seriously and who believe that they get macho points by letting old-fashioned hand cannon batter them senseless . . . as if they weren't senseless for pulling the trigger on one to begin with! Hmmmpf!

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Oldsarge]
      #28089 - 21/03/05 08:12 PM

The 4-bore double was useless as a stopper?!! Penetration 3 inches under the skin!!!!!!!

You guys can't seriously believe this!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Oldsarge
.300 member


Reged: 07/02/05
Posts: 180
Loc: SoCal Borderlands
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Marrakai]
      #28197 - 23/03/05 01:27 PM

Perhaps a jaunt throught the early chapters of Gregor Woods' Rifles for Africa is in order. The giant blackpowder gauge rifles went out of favor because they didn't work. Too many elephant, etc. were shot with them and went off to die of their wounds. Eight bore breechloaders with hardened cylindroconoidal bullets were better but when smokeless came out only the most reactionary pukka-sahib stuck with the old style. Check the documentation.

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Marrakai]
      #28237 - 24/03/05 07:57 AM

Mbogo,

I have shot a few Bison in my day and I would be curious to know how much powder was behind that 4 bore round ball your associate was shooting! I have a VERY hard time believing a quarter pound of lead being pushed by a PROPER powder charge of between 270 and 380 grains of 2F won't make the vitals on a bison (interestingly, Baker notes using up to 437.5 grains in what amounted to a Gibbs 5.3 bore but he had Elephant on his mind not big shaggy bovids). Now, on my last Bison hunt in Canada, I used a .416 Rem and that 400 grain x-bullet at 2400 fps (although making the vitals) did NOT exit so yes, Bison are tough critters. Still, your associate was using a light powder charge without a doubt if he got the results you describe. To be frank, it was irresponsible of him to put his own comfort or fear of recoil ahead of achieving a quick and humane kill.

It does, however, become clear when you read Baker that there was likely a reason he was using 1/2 pound 4 bore conicals over HUGE powder charges. On Elephant, he had to make up for the lack of penetration that a 4-bore round ball will exhibit. A 1360 grain 8 bore conical will have a sectional density of nearly .3 while a 4 bore round ball isn't even close at .227. I ordered an 8-bore front stuffer just for this reason and plan to take another free roaming Bison with it in Canada next January. I will make sure to use enough powder.

Best,

John

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Oldsarge]
      #28370 - 26/03/05 03:38 PM

Oldarge:

In reply to:

Check the documentation


Checked the documentation, and the only reference I can find anywhere to 4-bore penetration of only 3 inches is in mbogo's post!

I did find a paragraph on the 8-bore which might interest you though, penned by R.C.F. Maugham, inveterate big game hunter, and His Majesty's Consul-General at Beira, Portugese East Africa; (writing just after the turn of the century):

"....no hunter in his right senses should place his blind trust in such a weapon as even the .450 cordite rifle to extricate him from the thousand and one dangers by which he is liable from day to day to be confronted in Africa. I therefore unhesitatingly advocate, in addition to the most perfected type of modern high-velocity weapon which we are ever likely to see, the inclusion of a sound, heavy rifle intended for use at close range, the shock of whose bullet, even if it should not instantly kill, will assuredly be sufficiently great to disable or turn a charging beast."
His recommendation?
"..a heavy eight-bore, which I look upon as the ideal weapon par excellance for this purpose".

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: Marrakai]
      #28401 - 27/03/05 03:22 AM

In reply to:

The 4-bore double was useless as a stopper?!! Penetration 3 inches under the skin!!!!!!!

You guys can't seriously believe this!



Squib load? Very soft lead?

In general the 4 bore was noted for its piss-poor penetration. Art Alphin calculated that the 4 bore has the same penetration index as a 22 hornet. But 3 inches is a bit suspect.

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mbogo
.224 member


Reged: 21/05/04
Posts: 15
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: 500grains]
      #28406 - 27/03/05 07:14 AM

My point was that the ballistics are crap. My comment about "a thumb size bullet 3 inches beneath the skin" was simply sarcasm. I should have put quotations around it then maybe some of you wouldn't have jumped on it like a bunch of wolves on a stray calf. We didn't try to dig out the bullet so I don't know how deep it went. A chunk of lead that big will of course do damage. I was simply trying to display the fundamental point that these weapons have historical purpose and not so much realistic purpose for TODAY'S buffalo and elephant hunter, in my opinion. You all can relax.

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mbogo
.224 member


Reged: 21/05/04
Posts: 15
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: mbogo]
      #28407 - 27/03/05 07:16 AM

Oldsarge summed it up perfectly earlier.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3495
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: mbogo]
      #28443 - 28/03/05 11:19 AM

In reply to:

thumb size bullet 3 inches beneath the skin was simply sarcasm


Yeah, pretty obvious to everyone but Oldsarge that it wasn't true.


BTW, found this "documentation" while visiting the African Hunter website, in an article by Gunyana on Guns of the Pioneers:

"Selous comments though, that his old 4 bore 'Elephant guns' with a 1700 grain hardened lead ball pushed along by a good handful of powder had better penetration than most of the early rifles. It was this great penetration, coupled with a reasonably large wound channel that kept the big smooth bores in use on elephant up till the 1880's."


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: BIG, BIG Bores [Re: mbogo]
      #28462 - 28/03/05 11:51 PM

Mbogo,

Don't take my initial critique so personally. No one would be jumping on you (or rather your associate) had you not stated that the bullet was "3 inches beneath the skin" as though it, in fact, was recovered there. The reality is this would only happen if the powder charge was planned to be horribly insufficient. My guess, since you now say that the bullet was not recovered "3 inches beneath the skin" is that the bullet reached the vitals (or better) and you would have had a dead bison had you been patient! No need to turn a majestic animal into swiss cheese! I have shot truly wild bison in the vitals with my .416 (twice in fact) and had them just stand there! Unless you hit a bison in the CNS or at just the right time through the heart (read Robertson's theory on this in The Perfect Shot), he will NOT just fall over. He MAY trot away or, more likely I think, just stand there and slowly bleed out.

Best,

JohnTheGreek

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