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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17831 - 11/08/04 08:21 AM

In reply to:

The cartridge is OK, but it will never be what it was intended to be, without a lot of problems.



Mac,
It is now 2004, not 1964!
There are those who dwell on the old stories of 458 failings and have a "once a bastard always a bastard" attitude towards it.
There are others who, from first hand experience, know different.


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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: PP_skåne]
      #17832 - 11/08/04 08:24 AM

In reply to:

Hangfires with the .458wm?? with today´s components?
That whas mew for me...it is importent to use the right
powder,,when the case are short...




PP, I agree!


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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458wm [Re: PP_skåne]
      #17869 - 12/08/04 02:17 AM

In reply to:

Dugaboy..

I know that my English is not the best,,sorry -that you have to read it,when it´s this bad..PP



PP Skane I meant no disrespect, I simply did not understand the point you were makeing. Your English is most likely far better than mine, and anyone can spell better than I!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458wm [Re: PP_skåne]
      #17873 - 12/08/04 03:10 AM

I think what you are say, or asking is, why compare the 458 Win Mag and the 458 LOTT, because they are two different cartridges. If that is the case, then the statement is not a comparison, but my statement that the 458 Win Mag should have had the case measurements of the LOTT in the first place. The LOTT simply being a 458 Win Mag with a little longer case. The longer case iliminates the problems that were experienced in the 458 WM. The balistics they were looking to duplicate would have been much easier to accomplish if they had used the LOTT dimintions in the 375H&H length Mod 70.

I'm not saying the 458 Win Mag is not a good cartridge, it is! However, loaded the way the factory planned it, it was problematic. If loaded that way today, it will still be problimatic. The fact is any problem cartridge can be salvaged by some judicious, and careful handloading, and experimenting. The fact is, however, if the 458 win mag had origenaly had the dimentions of the LOTT, none of this would have been necessary, is all I'm saying!

I own, and have owned several 458 Win Mag rifles, over the years, and I had zero trouble out of them, because from the start, I knew the 500 gr bullets were not right for this little package, and I substituted a 400, and 450 gr bullets, and backed off to the lowest load for the 500 gr bullet in the load books, then worked up till I got to a load that would fill the case to the base of the seated bullet, and shoot good groups. That approche was what the factory should have done, if they were to use the short case. It wasn't long before everyone knew there was a problem obtaining the velocities the factory claimed with the 500 gr bullet, without crushing the powder. Sometimes not even then! Even with todays powders, the 500 gr bullet is not well suited to the 458 WM, and one must compact the powder , and raise pressures very high to come close to factory specs,with a 500 gr bullet, in anything but a test barrel.

I'm not saying the 458 is a bastard, but that the balistics they expected were illconcieved, in the form the case was made! If those balistics were desired, the case should have been lengthened, or the bullet weight reduced! If that makes me a dinosaur who can't learn anything new, then so be it, but there are few days that I do not load at least one chambering, and somtimes three or four, and they are not all big bore cartridges! I shoot everything from .22lr, to 577NE, and every thing from muzzelloader to belted magnums, and double rifles! However, I find that physics do not change with the number in front of the year!

The case, of the 458 WM, is too small to handle a 500 gr bullet effeciently! The 458 LOTT case is not too small, and will handle the 500 gr bullet very well, case closed ! BYE!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17886 - 12/08/04 08:41 AM

Mac,
I'm not looking for a shitfight here but there are a couple of things I feel need saying.

You are correct that the 458 has too small a capacity for easy and efficient loading of the 500gn bullet to the original claimed velocity.
You are correct that the 458 Lott has the powder capacity to easily and efficiently get that original claimed velocity and more.
You are correct that the Lott is a more efficient cartridge than the 458 Win.
You are correct in that if Winchester had made their 458 on a longer case it would have achieved the claimed velocity and may have avoided the problems encountered with the standard length case.

You are IMO not correct in saying that the 458 cannot do what Winchester claimed it could do.

Graeme Wright claims that many NE cartridges actually produce 80 to 100 fps LESS than the claimed velocity which were originally taken from pressure barrels of usually 28 inches or more.
Wright states that 470's are sometimes around the 2025 fps and this would be in 24 to 28 inch double rifle barrels.
Back in the early 90's my back up rifle was a 458 Win Mag custom Brno and I did quite a lot of shooting with it.
I cronographed quite a lot of handloads and also some Winchester factory stuff.

Late 1980 production factory Winchester 510 softpoints chronographed at between 2020 and 2035 fps.
BUT, this rifle only had a 22 1/2" barrel!

My handloads ran at 2120 fps for 500 Hornady and Woodleigh softs, and I used a different powder for solids which cronographed at 2080 fps in that 22 1/2" barrel!
All handloads had the bullets seated to achieve the standard cartridge overall length.

So IMO the Winchester factory ammo was equal to the ACTUAL 470 NE power level and my handloads EXCEED it!

Both Boddington and Lott have canned the 458 Win in print yet they have also stated that the many African PH's rely on the 458 with factory ammo for back up work on DG.
Yes 458 rifles are cheap to buy and 458 ammo is readily available and this would be a good reason for the 458's popularity, but...
Does this mean that all the pro's who choose the 458 are backing clients up with a problematic cartridge capable of hangfires, over high pressures and lack of penetration, simply because the rifles and ammo are easy to get!
Or do they use 458's because they are easy and cheap and THEY WORK!

Also Boddington claimes that some factory ammo he crono'd was a tad under 2000 fps and he claims that this puts it into the 450/400 energy class.
Ha!
What he fails to mention is that he is comparing ACTUAL cronograph readings for the 458 against CLAIMED velocity for the 400!
Graeme Wright has cronographed quite a few 400's and has found that ACTUAL velocity for this cartridge is usually around 2000fps!

Now Mac, many people including yourself have high praise for the 450/400 NE and its reputation would have been made on many occassions with a 400 grain .411 bullet at around 2000 fps.
So I would have to ask why the 458 is so inefficient and unworthy when it can push a LARGER DIAMETER BULLET which has a full 100 GRAINS MORE WEIGHT at THE SAME VELOCITY with FACTORY CARTRIDGES?

I believe that if you do a FAIR comparison using ACTUAL VELOCITIES fo ALL cartridges used, the 458 can do what was originally claimed when it was released, and that was to equal the power level of 450 NE or 470 NE while using a case which could operate in a standard length action!

Mac, I agree that physics don't change.
But gunpowders do!
If they didn't we'd still have to wait for the smoke to clear before firing the second barrel!
With todays powders it is easier to achieve the velocity in the 458 needed to make it equal in energy to the old NE loads!


Edited by 4seventy (12/08/04 11:05 AM)

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PP_skåne
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17888 - 12/08/04 09:13 AM

Hello,,,

No hard feelings from me,,i belive it is with the English
spelling like the shooting,practice,and it be better..
I also shooting everything from .22lr and bigger,but the .458 is the biggest i have tryed,except for my Winchester 1300 pumpshotgun loaded with slug,,but with blackpowder i shootig my muzzelloader Cal:12,17 mm from Husqvarna,,and with the blackpowder i also firering my
dearest thing, my original Colt pocket 1849,cal: 31,,not so big bore-but fun to shoot with,,like the girls are saying the bigger they are the better it is....PP

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Con
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17898 - 12/08/04 01:22 PM

Alan,
Exactly what I wrote earlier on, the 458WM has always been compared to claimed 470 ballistics NOT chronographed data. The Winchester has probably always matched actual 470 ballistics from day dot.
Cheers...
Con

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17919 - 13/08/04 02:37 AM

4seventy, you are absolutely correct in everything you say! I think everyone has the mistaken idea, that I don't like the 458WM, and that is not the case, I do like it, and as stated, own, and have owned many more rifles so chambered. Just because I like and use the cartridge, doesn't change the fact that the cartridge was not designed in the best way it could have been.

I have never had any problem with this cartridge, but the reason I didn't is, because I reccognized, early on, that this cartridge was ill designed for the slott Winchester stuck it, and thier factory ammo was not only crap, but dangerous in the beginning! That is all I'm saying! It makes no difference what velocity, and reliability, you can get through trickery,50 years later, the cartridge could have been better designed! There was no need for it, in that configuration when it was made, given the componants available then! The only reason LOTT did the wildcat 458 LOTT was, because of the problems people were haveing with the 458 WM! That alone should tell you somthing.

If you want to dup a rimmed cartridge ( the 470NE, or 450NE)with a rimless one, so it may be used in a bolt rifle, one would think, common sense would tell you, to build it with nere the same powder capacity,as LOTT did, as long as it would fit in a rifle you can use it in! In the case of the 458 WM, they chose, for what ever reason, a standard length action, when they already had a 375 H&H length action available. To me this was a mistake, and if the long action had been used, the LOTT measurements would have been perfect! It would have worked like a charm,from day one, because it had the capacity to handle 500 gr bullets, without any problem whatever! You can't tell me the cartridge is a good design, when it has taken 50 years to finely get factory ammo to come up to what the factory said it would do in 1956!

We all played with this cartridge, and everyone I know, had their own load to get the thing to act right. To me, any cartridge that required that much experimenting from day one to get it to work was an ill-designed cartridge. NOW, in 2004, it has finaly been saved by Norma, it seems! I would like anyone here to name any cartridge that has taken 50 years to get it to work properly,as Winchester said this one would in 1956, every time, with factory ammo!

It is true , with new good bullets in the proper weights, and new powders that develope the pressures needed to push the big bullets at the 1956 advertised velocities,but it wasn't designed TODAY, it was designed to use the powders of that day in 1956. It finally works, but not as effeciently, as the LOTT, the cartridge that should have had the name 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM in the first place!

I guarintee you, if the LOTT had been used instead of the 458WM, every one of those PHs would have been useing it all these years, and without the problems experienced over the years, and the longer version would be as common today in Africa as the 30-30 is in North America!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17929 - 13/08/04 07:44 AM

In reply to:

It makes no difference what velocity, and reliability, you can get through trickery,50 years later



Trickery!
Really???
Ok, I give up!

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PP_skåne
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17930 - 13/08/04 08:28 AM

Hi,,

4 seventy---what bullet is to prefer the, Swift 500 grains
from Norma at 2205f/s or the Barnes solid 500 grains in 2202f/s also by Norma? for the Cap Buffalo?
Are ther maby better choose for the bullet?? PP.

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: PP_skåne]
      #17941 - 13/08/04 04:59 PM

PP
I haven't used either of those bullets you mention so I don't really know which one is best.
If I was hunting cape buffalo I would load some 500 gn Woodleigh solids.

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17972 - 14/08/04 09:18 AM

Mac,
I don't understand why you would think that some form of trickery is required to load the 458 up to spec.
I worked up loads for mine using the same Australian powders that are used for reloading my 308 and 30-06!

The technique is the same and just as simple as reloading a common easy to load cartridge like the 308 or 30-06!
The only extra work is to crimp the bullet which I do anyway with all big recoiling rifles! (providing there is a cannelure of course)
Trim case, seat primer, dump powder, seat and crimp bullet!
Hell , it's actually a lot easier than some NE reloading for doubles!

Talking velocities, as stated earlier, the 500 soft ran at 2120, the 500 solid at 2080 from the 22 1/2" barrel.
I also had some 300 grain welded core bullets running at 2700!
Incidently, apparantly in 1961, Rifleman magazine published figures of 2087 fps for a factory 458 load in a 25 inch pressure barrel tested at HP White Laboritory.

With Graeme Wrights velocity tests showing that NE cartridges often run up to 100 fps less than their claimed speed, that 2087 fps shows that Winchester was a lot more honest with claimed velocity than some of the others!





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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17981 - 14/08/04 11:24 PM

4seventy , we are on the same page, you and I, but one of us is reading it backwards!

I concur the 458 can be made to shoot the way you say TODAY , and all I'm saying is, in the beginning, the cartridge did not live up to Winchester's claims! It is imaterial whether other cartridges did or not, that doesn't change the fact that the 458 WM did not! Addtionally, after the factory ammo was loaded for some months, it produced squib loads, and hang fires because of the factory makeing loads the crushed the powder charges, efectivly turning the powder into a solid block of powder that did not burn properly. My contention is, if there was that much problem with the cartridge when it was first made, why was this not fixed before production? At that time the only way to fix the 458WM, by a handloader, was to reduce the powder load, and reduce the weight of the bullet, because the powders were not available to do otherwise. The other fix, and the simplest one,for the factory, was to increase the powder capacity,of the case,the same way LOTT fixed the 458 with the wildcat 458 LOTT, by useing the full length 375 H&H brass! Necessity is the father of invention!

It is my opinion, regardless, if it takes 50 yrs to get reliable factory ammo, that comes close the factory claims, then, it would seem there was some sereous flaws in the design.

None of this has anything to do with what can be done today, but the cartridge did take some years of fixing,that could have all been avoided by simply makeing the case a little larger in the first place! Wouldn't you agree with that?

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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PP_skåne
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17984 - 15/08/04 03:14 AM

Hi,,

4 seventy,,,,that Woodligh bullet i must try in my rifle..
Maby that solid hits in a same place as the softnose..

Today i whas read a very intresting article,, it whas about the cartidges and ther performance,,a well-known
gun righter whas testing old Nitro express cartidges,
cal. 450,470 and some other calibers,,the ammo whas about 40 years old,,and neither off them whas faster than 2100 f/s,in the chronograph,, PP.

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #17987 - 15/08/04 08:13 AM

In reply to:

but the cartridge did take some years of fixing,that could have all been avoided by simply makeing the case a little larger in the first place! Wouldn't you agree with that?



Mac, I already have agreed with that several posts back!
Here it is again.

"You are correct that the 458 has too small a capacity for easy and efficient loading of the 500gn bullet to the original claimed velocity.
You are correct that the 458 Lott has the powder capacity to easily and efficiently get that original claimed velocity and more.
You are correct that the Lott is a more efficient cartridge than the 458 Win.
You are correct in that if Winchester had made their 458 on a longer case it would have achieved the claimed velocity and may have avoided the problems encountered with the standard length case."





In reply to:

4seventy , we are on the same page, you and I, but one of us is reading it backwards!


Mac, I think you're right!
One of us seems to be constantly going backwards to the 458's dim dark past!


I'm interested to hear of your experience with 458 WM failures which involve those hangfires, squib loads etc.






Edited by 4seventy (15/08/04 09:22 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: .458wm [Re: PP_skåne]
      #17989 - 15/08/04 09:04 AM


In reply to:

the ammo whas about 40 years old,,and neither off them whas faster than 2100 f/s,in the chronograph


PP
That 1961 458 velocity of 2087 puts it at the same power level as most of the 450's and the 470 then!

Yes, we like the Woodleighs and I load them in all my rifles these days from 7mm up to the big stuff.



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DUGABOY1
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Re: .458wm [Re: 4seventy]
      #17993 - 15/08/04 11:07 AM

In reply to:

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4seventy , we are on the same page, you and I, but one of us is reading it backwards!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mac, I think you're right!
One of us seems to be constantly going backwards to the 458's dim dark past!




You are absolutely correct, I'm not argueing with you! Back in the Dark ages is what my post was about in the first place! I thought everyone understood that, but I'm obveously mistaken!

It seems when a person likes a cartridge, they can't take hearing anything negative about their pet! The fact that the begining of the 458 may seem like the DARK AGES to a young buck like you, doesn't change the old 458 wm's spotty history! That's all I was saying, not dumping roofing tar on the Queen! DAMN!!!!!!!!! I think I'm through with this!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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atkinson6
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Re: .458wm [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #18897 - 04/09/04 05:06 AM

Gotta toss in my two bits..opinnion only...

1. I have shot Buffalo with the 458 Loaded to 2100, 458 Lott at 2350 and the 470 at 2020 and 2245 FPS...The 470 is fully equal and perhaps better than the 458 Lott at 2350 and superior to the other two loadings.....

2. The 458 Win. is a fine round when properly loaded, but when properly loaded your playing with fire, compaction being possible with about any powder..The trouble with compaction is it only occurs on ocassion and one thinks all is well, then everything goes south..

3. It only makes since to punch the 458 win. out ot a Lott, give me one reason why not if your going to hunt dangerous game? Its such an easy punch! and a great insureance program.

4. The 458 Win. was and is a poorly designed cartridge, always has been otherwise it would not be such an argueable topic...It'll work but there sure are better options..

5. Anyone that thinks there is a difference in the bolt throw of a std and 375 length action in the heat of battle, probably can't chew gum and walk, its there but c'mon, a 1/4 of an inch just ain't all that serious, its in your head....I shoot both actions and a true magnum action all the time, have for years..I never missed in the beginning and have not since, if I did then I'd take up knitting!

6. Mac pretty much nailed it IMO....but to each his own.

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jgttechjunkie
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Re: .458wm [Re: atkinson6]
      #18957 - 05/09/04 06:10 AM

Anyone who is familiar with industrial accidents, say in the chemical industry, knows that there are plenty of cases in which a minor incident is turned into a major one because someone, supposedly with training and experience, could not walk and chew gum at the same time under pressure.
That is why we try to design processes which are idiot proof.

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mudbug
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Re: .458wm [Re: atkinson6]
      #18968 - 05/09/04 12:59 PM

Yeah ?

I guess that's why Harry Selby ditched his .416 Rigby in favor of a .458 winnie, M-70, push feed? Poor man was daft, I reckon, but I guess he just didn't have as much experience as some folks when it comes to DG.

He has an interview coming up in, either, the Nov or Dec edition of Outdoor Life, I think it is.

Mudbug

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Will
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Re: .458wm [Re: mudbug]
      #18972 - 05/09/04 02:11 PM

Folks used the .458 because rifles and ammunition were made available when Kynoch was going belly up.

Hundreds of guys used the factory ammo without a hitch in the 60's. A few had problems, but all that is ancient history. And it is getting more ancient with every post!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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wombat
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Re: .458wm [Re: atkinson6]
      #18976 - 05/09/04 03:04 PM

You may find the results of the apprentice PH exams in
Zim this year interesting-they were discussed in African Hunter mag.In the shooting examination a significant nos. of the candidates short-stroked their long actions and fired on the "charging beast" with empty chambers.The conclusion was that they were use to standard length actions,hence the stuff-up under pressure.

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Will
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Re: .458wm [Re: wombat]
      #19004 - 06/09/04 05:43 AM

Any kid that short strokes a magnum length action is a dangerous dude. More likely has little experience and has nothing to do with the action length.

Just fail the dork and send him on his way!

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: .458wm [Re: wombat]
      #19016 - 06/09/04 02:03 PM

wombat

That would be bullshit.

There is no question at all that the difference between a Model 70 in 270 and 375 and a Weatherby in 270 Wby and 300 Wby feel different if the rifles have been used and handled a lot. You are very aware that with the 270 the bolt has stopped earlier than "scheduled"

But in my opinion if you were to shoot the 270 Wby and 270 Winchester 100 times a day for 12 months and then after that 12 months used the 300 Wby and 375 H&H.....then if the 300 Wby and 375 H&H did not have bolt stops then the bolts would be out of the rifles on your first shot. You would have the rifle in one hand and the bolt in the other hand.

As to the idea that someone could be use to the 30/06 length bolt travel on Rifle Brand A and then short stroke a 375 length bolt travel on Rifle Brand B.........

Mike

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mickey
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Re: .458wm [Re: Mike375]
      #19045 - 07/09/04 03:22 AM

I think the tests referred to 'some' inexperienced candidates that are used to shooting smaller rifles than they were tested with. If a person grows up shooting a 30-06 or a 243 in the appropriate actions than when the rubber hits the road they (and anybody) will revert to habit.

The bolt will be pulled to the accostomed place and short stroked. Most of these apprentices are not shooting their own rifle but borrowed and loaner rifles. Rifles that are especially for the DG portion of the test.

If you spent your whole life on a magnum action and then had to shoot a short action in a hurry you would probably damned near break off the bolt handle.

That's what I think anyway.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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