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470Nitro
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Reged: 17/09/03
Posts: 467
Loc: Madrid - Spain
Where to shot an Elephant
      #5184 - 25/11/03 11:07 PM

I was thinking about main things to disagree with a PH since the post we talked about great hunters.
May be, for those who had hunted an elephant sometime or if you had readed about it, there're different points of view on where to shot an elephant.
Usually a PH wants you to do a heart shot but other people thinks a brain shot is much better (and safe).

Had you ever talk about it with a PH??? Where would you shot an elephant and why?? Is easy to say but Isn't easy to do.

About me, I took 2 elephants, both with just one brain shot using a .416 RM with solid bullet.

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: 470Nitro]
      #5185 - 26/11/03 01:03 AM

IMO, the best is the brain shot:

It is less gruesome and quick, and no followup, and you can be ready faster if difficulties develop.

The side brain shot is easier to pull off, in my experience, though others disagree with that.

My near misses on cows have always knocked the cow down, giving enough time for a finisher. I have not had a near miss on bulls but I hear it is less likely that they will be knocked down.

Heart shots always leave a doubt as to whether it is going to fall eventually or run forever.

Get close as you can.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Will]
      #5231 - 28/11/03 04:20 AM

Like Will, my vote goes to the brain shot, although I guess I have a slight preference for the frontal brain shot. But let's be honest here, you take whatever brain shot is presented to you....... at least, that's what I do.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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500grains
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: shakari]
      #9681 - 21/02/04 07:02 AM

I think the shot depends on the client's objective. Some may prefer a heart/lung shot because although the elephant will die more slowly, the chance of it getting away is slim. But it is quite easy to miss the football-sized brain in that giant elephant head.

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atkinson6
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: 500grains]
      #9712 - 21/02/04 09:40 AM

500 makes a good point, an escaped elephant is a $10,000 mistake handed to the hunter....

I mostly shoot for the brain with a quickie to the shoulder as they go down...but I think most clients would do well to do as the PH advises....

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: atkinson6]
      #9923 - 23/02/04 06:21 PM

On elephant brain is a very good option and to look at it from a different angle your trophy ( the Tusks) are out of the bullets way unlike buffalo for example.

I seriously don't want a lungshot heart missed elephant close to me.If you cannon has enough power a near bgrain will stunn the ele or even put it down and agreeing with some of the previous meesages it does give you a little more time for a second shot.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: atkinson6]
      #9964 - 24/02/04 11:20 AM

I get the impression a lot of PHs will shoot the elephant if:

1) The brain shot is taken and it doesn't fall instantly; and

2) The heart shot is taken.


From people's experience here is the second scenario above true - ie if you shoot for the heart the PH will usually also shoot as well ?

If this is the case I guess if you want to take an elephant alone, learning the brain shot well is really the only option.

I really don't like the thought of someone else "shooting" my animals for me. In cases where the animal is clearly running and may get away, that's a bit different as you owe it to kill the animal cleanly and quickly. But if a heart shot elephant runs it will die reasonably soon so the second shot would not be required. If the heart is missed it may die but may take a while and perhaps the second shot is a god idea.

Back to the brain shot I guess for certainty.

Any comments on the above?

470Nitro

What practice or preparation did you do for your elephant brain shots? Look at some skulls, or just worked it out from verbal advice or shot descriptions in books and magazines?


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bigfive
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: NitroX]
      #10006 - 24/02/04 07:28 PM

NitroX,

I agree with you.If you are my elephant hunting client I'll only shoot when we are in shit but otherwise to that I'll let you do all the shooting.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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deant
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Reged: 13/02/04
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: NitroX]
      #10009 - 24/02/04 09:37 PM

I heart-lung shot my elephant I had 2 phs with me they didnt shoot. Maybe they wanted to save their ammo for the other 30 or so in the group?
They were ready and if my shot wasnt true Im sure they would have. Ill probally get flamed for this but if you make a perfect heart shot and the PH followed it with a shot for good measure does it really make that much differance. The animal cant be killed twice?
Dean

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: deant]
      #10016 - 25/02/04 01:19 AM

In this case, I'm in total agreement. If the critter didn't go down immediately or didn't look like it was hit well, I'd have insisted beforehand that they take a shot or two to prevent the escape. Any game that we shoot deserves to be humanely done whether here in NA or Africa. There is an article by Ganyana on the other forum, I can't remember the name right now, sells that book Nyati, where he says that a missed brain shot on ele doesn't necessarily mean the critter will go down and will probably kick into a higher gear and boogie on you.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Will
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: 475Guy]
      #10029 - 25/02/04 06:22 AM

You would have to be standing right next to the elephant to tell whether a heart/lung shot was "good." And I'm not sure that it is possible at all.

Most PH's, and all I have encountered, will shoot if the thing doesn't drop from a brain shot, a near brain shot, or any other shot. I believe it is a fallacy to believe otherwise.

Luckily, I have only had a PH shoot once after my first shot (which was a heart/lung shot), but it was a screwup on my part so I deserved it.

I also believe it is a fallacy to think that you are going to track down a non-fatally wounded elephant, so therefore the PH should not shoot. It is not like any area is without boundaries. You wound an elephant non-fatally and it will haul ass, and just as likely cross the hunting boundary as not. Then you are screwed, along with the elephant.

And not to step on anyones toes, but when an elephant is brain shot, the elephant goes down fast, and there is no time for a heart/lung followup shot. A followup shot after it hits the earth, yes, but not before.

I wrote a long diatribe about this on AR. Could find it if you are interested.

Hell, if I was the PH I would shoot if the elephant didn't drop. Yeah, maybe the PH doesn't shoot on an impala, that you have to track down because the impala was only wounded, but elephants aren't impala.




--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Will]
      #10034 - 25/02/04 06:42 AM

Well said Will.

I also usually discuss the matter (before we go out) of back up and follow up shots with clients on all DG hunts. Most clients welcome the subject and some ask for help and some don't. At the end of the day, they're paying the bills and we hunt the way they want to.......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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470Nitro
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Reged: 17/09/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: NitroX]
      #10045 - 25/02/04 08:51 AM

En respuesta a:


What practice or preparation did you do for your elephant brain shots? Look at some skulls, or just worked it out from verbal advice or shot descriptions in books and magazines?




Before my first elephant hunting in Zimbabwe in 1998, I talked a lot with Tony Sanchez, Gomez Sequeira and some other experiences elephant hunters. Also I readed several books about it, from the mentioned Tony to John Hunter or Pondoro.
I had the right place to shot into my mind 6 months before the safari, and so I only needed one brain shot.
Last year I went to Botswana and I took a elephant with only one brain shot again.
If you think in 3D (and you know where is), you'll find the brain, no matter what position the elephant be .

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: 470Nitro]
      #10051 - 25/02/04 09:23 AM

Well, that nails it down.

In one of Tony Sanchez's books he talks about taking the frontal brain by aiming at the top wrinkle of the trunk when the head is held normally.

With all due deference to Mr. Sanchez, the frontal brain shot can span about a 3 foot length from the upper part of the skull to well down the trunk. There are many people that can pull this off, of which I am sure Mr. Sanchez is one, but it is a tough shot, especially in an emergency.

My hat is off to the guys that can pull that off when about to get hammered.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: shakari]
      #10060 - 25/02/04 09:50 AM

In reply to:

I also usually discuss the matter (before we go out) of back up and follow up shots with clients on all DG hunts. Most clients welcome the subject and some ask for help and some don't.



Steve

That is really good. I found it amazing on my first safari the PH never asked me one thing about where I was going to shoot the game (plains game). I had said I had hunted deer etc but for he knew I had never shot anything.

Actually when I purchased a copy of the African Hunter shot placement guide I was amazed that the heart of most African plains game is further forward. I have got used to shooting game just behind the shoulder to reduce venison waste and on African game was probably shooting a little too far back, still striking the lungs. When I should have shot them (most) straight through the shoulders and thereby getting the heart and centre of the lungs area. This is probably why some of my animals ran further than they ideally should before dying. And as someone once said, "Why worry about the meat on an African trophy hunt."

Again on cape buffalo I was never 'quizzed' at all on where I was planning to shoot it.

Of course some clients might get defensive but it probably could be done in a way that is casual.

I wonder if I was hunting elephant if most PHs would ask where I was going to shoot it, especially the brain and if I knew actually how to find it?

BUT for elephant I would be bringing up the topic definitely. There's no shame in it these days where a sporting hunter is lucky to take one, let alone several. I found it very useful to examine an elephant skull near the Zambezi River and another at the HHK camp at Matetsi. Very rewarding and hopefully could be put to use oneday.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: NitroX]
      #10067 - 25/02/04 10:04 AM

I have never asked a PH where to shoot, because I knew from reading books! Looking at skulls did nothing for me.

If you really want to know, get Ron Thomson's book.

P.S.

All this stuff from KR about African game being different is just a load of shit. You shoot them the same way you do anything else. Right behind the front leg on broadside shots.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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SBT
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Will]
      #10099 - 25/02/04 12:46 PM

Will,

I would like to read your "diatribe" if you can post it here. I'd also like to know the name of Ron Thomson's book.

If I am ever fortunate enough to hunt a bull elephant, I would really like to have a trophy picture with the elephant collapsed onto his front legs, with his head up and both tusks on the ground. I assume that those photos I've seen, the elephant collapsed that way as oppossed to being rolled into that position. If I am correct, would the brain shot be more apt to result in this position than a heart shot?

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Will
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: SBT]
      #10124 - 25/02/04 05:49 PM

Thomson's book is Mahohboh, publ. by Safari Press.

I use a somewhat modified version of his explanation but that is another story.

In my limited experience, having an elephant fall and remain in the upright position occurred only when the elephant was standing still, on level ground, and was killed with the frontal brain shot.

I don't think you can count on it though, as others have fallen over with the same shot. Probably a fluke more than anything else, but I don't know. I have never read any discussion of it.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Bigfive
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: shakari]
      #10125 - 25/02/04 05:54 PM

I also agree on discussing the matter with the client on DG.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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Bigfive
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Will]
      #10126 - 25/02/04 05:57 PM

I diagree with you Will.A lung shot is behind the shoulders or leg as you call it but if you want to get the heart as well please shoot for the shoulder and don't go to high.
I'd rather follow up on a hear and lung shot buff that just a lung shot buff.Around the heart you always have the chance of cutting on of the big arteries but in the lungs it is just the lungs.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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Will
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Bigfive]
      #10129 - 25/02/04 06:10 PM

BigFive,

All I know is that when I have taken that shot on any game, they never went far, and mostly dropped in their tracks, though I have only seen buff drop in their tracks to brain shots.

Given the option, I would rather brain a buffalo anyway.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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500grains
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: Will]
      #10180 - 26/02/04 11:27 AM

I don't want anyone else's bullet in my animal, and one of the things I ask BEFORE BOOKING is when the PH would shoot, if at all. I do not intend to book a hunt with a PH who is going to "back me up" or "help me out" unless the animal is charging and within 5 or 6 feet of me (or him or endangering a tracker). Unfortunately there are some PH's who are just as enthusiastic about pulling the trigger as the client, and I do not want any part of that. Fortunately there are some highly professional PH's who pride themselves on finding the game and getting the client into a position for a shot, rather than assisting with the actual trigger pulling. If a PH wants to pull the trigger, he is free to book an elephant hunt for himself or to take advantage of one of the crop raiders.

Those are my feelings on the subject.

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Vaughan_Fulton
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Re: Where to shot an Elephant [Re: 500grains]
      #10441 - 29/02/04 06:38 PM

Hello Members,

Most hunters don't have a problem with the "possible" need of a follow up shot from the ph, if they have opted for the brain shot once all the possibilities and pro's and cons have been discussed. Most experienced ph,s won't shoot just to get a shot off.

Consider that if a brain shot has been missed there is every possibility that the Elephant may take off and you are now faced with a wounded animal as well as a dangerous animal. When an Elephant decides to go....They go quickly (or come for that matter). As Will, 500grains and Mr. Atkinson have already pointed out it is now the possibility of not only loosing the animal but also your trophy fees. More importantly is our responsibility and respect owed towards any animal that we shoot.

If I may suggest, a hunter should be prepared to take either the brain or Heart/lung shots on Elephant as vegetation and terrain may also be a deciding factor.




--------------------
Vaughan Fulton
(url)www.fultonclassicsafaris.com(/url)




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