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MKresinske
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NY, USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133053 - 22/04/09 04:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Where do I sign up. Sounds like a wonderful time to me !




That's a good point.


The other thing is, what if you shoot a Leopard, and when you get it it has some mark on the skin, broken teeth or whatever.

Does that make it "NOT" a trophy or "NOT" THE Trophy YOU wanted ?



I would think that all of the above would make it more of a trophy. Shows character. Reflects the life that it has lead.

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500Nitro
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: MKresinske]
      #133056 - 22/04/09 05:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Where do I sign up. Sounds like a wonderful time to me !




That's a good point.


The other thing is, what if you shoot a Leopard, and when you get it it has some mark on the skin, broken teeth or whatever.

Does that make it "NOT" a trophy or "NOT" THE Trophy YOU wanted ?



I would think that all of the above would make it more of a trophy. Shows character. Reflects the life that it has lead.




That's intersting you say that. The only buff horns I've kept have some sort of story to them, all to do with the hunt, not always the size - in fact, some are just damn right small but it has a good hunting story for me.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133057 - 22/04/09 05:16 AM

Personally I think I would like a larger and male leopard as a trophy, but have never seen one in the wild, nor can they be imported into Aust anyway so a moot point.

However I think if you've agreed to hunt a cattle killer, been told it is a female or a small male, and then shoot it, it is a bit too late to complain afterwards, especially when it is weighed.

I guess scales are like tape measures, the smile gets bigger or disappears.

A trophy is a trophy irrespective of what the tape measure (or scales) say.

Also an exciting hunt is the part of what makes a hunting trip. The trophies for the wall are for the memories. JMO.


For info, what would be the usual weight of an average female leopard?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (22/04/09 05:21 AM)

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133059 - 22/04/09 05:18 AM

Quote:


That's intersting you say that. The only buff horns I've kept have some sort of story to them, all to do with the hunt, not always the size - in fact, some are just damn right small but it has a good hunting story for me.



Me too. I don't know how many Buff I've hunted over the years but I've given all the trophies away except one small, ugly set that have a great story and great memeories for me to them..........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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MKresinske
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Reged: 23/02/08
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133060 - 22/04/09 05:46 AM

It is all about the hunt and the stories that go along with it. Nothing else really matters to me in the end.

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Ndumo
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Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: NitroX]
      #133067 - 22/04/09 07:39 AM

Quote:

For info, what would be the usual weight of an average female leopard?




John, this info comes out of the revised Smithers, basically the "Bible" on Southern African mammals:

a) Matetsi Zimbabwe
Males 51.8 -71.3 kg (n=13), average 59.7kg
Females 28.2-34.9 (n=7), average 31.5kg

b) Waterberg, Limpopo province, RSA
Males average 58.8kg (n=6)
Females average 34.9kg (n=6)

c)Northern- Eastern adn Western Cape, RSA
Males average 30.9kg (n=27)
Females average 21.2kg (n=9)

d) Kruger Park, RSA
Diffrenciate between old-, Prime-, and sub adults and large cubs:
Old adults
Males average 63.1kg (n=5)
Females average 37.2kg (n=6)

Prime adults
Males average 58.2kg (n=3)
Females average 37.5kg (n=6)

Sub adults
Males average 50.9kg (n=6)
Females average 30.1kg (n=3)

Then in a seperate study, for Northern Namibia they found:
mean weight between 18 leopards:
males 44.6kg and females 25kg.

In other words, a leopard female can weigh from 25 kg to 55kg (the heaviest I have personally hunted with a client), and a adult male from about 45kg to 83 (once again the heaviest I have personally hunted.)

Now of course, a lot of the weight depends on when they have last eaten, as they can eat up to 20% of their body mass in one sitting, and as shakari has pointed out, other factors.
More important, NQC minimum measurement is 32cm at the moment, this cat measured 35.3cm (same measurement as SCI, just in cm)

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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BeltedMagnum
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 24
Loc: New England
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133072 - 22/04/09 08:25 AM

When is a leopard a trophy? My rule of thumb has always been A: you see one, and B: if the PH tells you to shoot and C: you shoot well.

Honestly, I think a great deal depends on where an animal is taken, that determines what is a good vs great trophy. I know guys that have get bigger horns hanging on their walls, but everything I have had mounted were do to them being shot with my father at my side. I'd take that tom hunt over a pen lion any day of the week, but sadly there are those that only want the biggest so they can puff out their chest.

Something that nobody has hit on,,, I thought that weight on cats was not a real point of scoring as they dramatically fluctuate depending on when they last fed. Anyone know if this holds true with Leopard? Skull and between the pegs, no?

Belted

--------------------
Hunting Africa with Dad. Does it get any better?

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
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Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: BeltedMagnum]
      #133110 - 22/04/09 03:17 PM

Karl,

How long did the cat measure in total length from nose to tail tip ? That will also give you a good idication on size. Maybe you should have had the client grab it by the throat and see if he would have won the battle against a small 45 kg cat LOL.

Karl is this the same guy that was in camp 2 years ago when I was there the first time ?

Mind you if we were going to shoot on weight only then we would be back to shoot 4-5 year old kudu bulls not the old stuff with 60" horns and in a not so good shape.

Anyway Karl just to add a last point you took very good trophy photos where you would not guess that the leopard only weighed 45kg and anyway I've heard that taxidermists can do wonders with streching that skin and filling it up so if he keeps quiet he could end up with a 140 pound female leopard

Its a bloody nice looking cat and I would not mind shooting one like that.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133111 - 22/04/09 03:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

For info, what would be the usual weight of an average female leopard?




John, this info comes out of the revised Smithers, basically the "Bible" on Southern African mammals:

a) Matetsi Zimbabwe
Females 28.2-34.9 (n=7), average 31.5kg

b) Waterberg, Limpopo province, RSA
Females average 34.9kg (n=6)

c)Northern- Eastern adn Western Cape, RSA
Females average 21.2kg (n=9)

d) Kruger Park, RSA
Old adults
Females average 37.2kg (n=6)

Prime adults
Females average 37.5kg (n=6)


Then in a seperate study, for Northern Namibia they found:
mean weight between 18 leopards:
females 25kg.

In other words, a leopard female can weigh from 25 kg to 55kg (the heaviest I have personally hunted with a client)...



So a 45 kg female is more than representative and above average in weight. So even by a subjective measure of "trophy value" if the client knew he was shooting a female (or a small males), with that weight, then he did get a representative trophy leopard.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #133116 - 22/04/09 04:05 PM

Quote:

How long did the cat measure in total length from nose to tail tip ?



196 cm or 6 ft 5 inches.

Frederik, no it was not the same guy.

John, I think he shot an above average female, and a real spelndid trophy.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133118 - 22/04/09 04:15 PM

That is close to 7 foot big enough cat to have fully mounted without the tail straightened out it would still come to a nose to tip classic leopard full mount walking of 6 foot on the wall now if that doesnt impress then I dont know !

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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HighlandStalker
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Reged: 13/01/07
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Loc: Christchurch, NZ
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133119 - 22/04/09 04:35 PM

Karl,
I think you have been more than reasonable with this client. I would have charged him the day fees for the previous hunt.

As with all free-range, fair-chase hunts there are no guarantees, and as you put him onto cats which through his lack of fitness and some bad luck were not taken, is no fault of yours. That's Hunting!

Personally, I would consider a cattle killer hunted with hounds to be the ultimate leopard trophy regardless of size, and a greater trophy than a larger cat shot over bait.

The cat that the client took was also a large specimen for a female, and should he be interested in such things,the skull scored OK. What else could you want? ...BIG problem animals! 100lb PAC elephant (has to be "non-trophy" anyway in reality) & 200lb leopard.. That's just not how it works!

Anyway, who does not like hunting problem animals? be thay stock killing foxes, coyotes, feral pigs, feral cats/dogs etc.. The taking of such an animal should give the hunter a greater sense of achievement, in my opinion.

Joe

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thorshammer
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Reged: 27/12/08
Posts: 150
Loc: USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: lancaster]
      #133122 - 22/04/09 05:08 PM

Beautiful cat and your one hell of a ph not to tell this gentlemen to piss off he has no right to complain he got exactly what he was instructed he would get some people these days just think hunts are suppose to be like those tv show hunts

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: thorshammer]
      #133125 - 22/04/09 05:43 PM

I always think it's very difficult to talk about average size (esp) with Leopard as they vary in size to an incredible degree throughout Africa........ average for the area perhaps but nothing else. As an example of this, the Leopards from some but not all parts of Tanzania are as large as many fully grown Lionesses, but the prices to hunt one of these areas are very high.

Length is also not a particularly good yardstick to use (if you'll pardon the pun!) because a dead cat becomes very elastic. Even without stretching, by the time the pics of client etc holding the cat under it's forelegs are finished, you can often see the stretch factor visibly showing in the later pics. In extreme examples they can almost look like a cartoon cat. Note, I'm not suggesting this is done deliberately, it's not. The fact is that a dead cat stretches whether you like it or not. It should also be noted that with careful handling, you can also (temporarily) concertina it back to a more normal shape. - I guess some people might question that statement, but my reply to that would be to try it (on any freshly dead cat) before criticising the statement.

Skull measurement is the only criteria that has any relevance and 14 inches is a respectable size, esp bearing in mind the hunt was for a particular problem animal rather than a trophy animal.

Just goes to show the value of having a good, fair and comprehensive safari contract where all these things are stipulated without equivocation.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (22/04/09 05:48 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133144 - 22/04/09 07:14 PM

Quote:

It should also be noted that with careful handling, you can also (temporarily) concertina it back to a more normal shape. - I guess some people might question that statement, but my reply to that would be to try it (on any freshly dead cat) before criticising the statement.





but my reply to that would be to try it (on any freshly dead cat)


Shakari,

Most of the dead cats here in Australia have a few too many bits blown off them to do that

We call it paddock pizza


Sorry, just had to add a bit of humour to this thread.

Edited by 500Nitro (22/04/09 07:15 PM)

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133145 - 22/04/09 07:28 PM

Paddock pizza! Now that's funneeeeeee

I'm damn near crying with laughter!!!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133148 - 22/04/09 08:07 PM

Quote:

Paddock pizza! Now that's funneeeeeee

I'm damn near crying with laughter!!!




If I knew how to post photos on here, I would do some
of the paddock pizza's involving rabbits, foxes and cats.

Some of the other forums I frequent have great
photos of the said subjects in various pieces.


Can anyone help out and post a pick to really crack up Shakari ?

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xausa
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133169 - 22/04/09 11:21 PM

Back in the bad old days (and still, for all I know) measuring a cat from the tip of his nose to the tip of his tail was important. It was supposed to be done stretched out between pegs, but I was told that there was sometimes a little "help" applied, in the form of tying one end to a tree and the other to the rear of the Land Rover. I agree, skull measurements are the only reliable index.

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shakari
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133171 - 22/04/09 11:23 PM

If it won't spoil the joke, you can mail them to me at shakari3@mweb.co.za

Here's an example of how a cat stretches. The first pic shows what was admittedly a bloody big Leopard, but look closely at the bottom part of the cat and you can see how he's already started to stretch. Below is the same cat but taken a few minutes after we found it after a short track. (no need to tell me my flies are open!!!) Below that is a pic of the same cat after we concertinered it back into itself..... in fact, we over did it and the body looks shorter/slightly hump backed than it really was. Below that is a pic of the carcass to show how much fat there was on the carcass........ this pic has no real relevence but thought it might be of general interest.










--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/09 05:38 AM)

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shakari
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133173 - 22/04/09 11:47 PM

Oops, guess I should apologise to Karl for hijacking his thread........... Sorry about that mate, it wasn't intentional, I just wandered off topic a bit........ guess it must be oldtimers disease getting to me!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Ndumo
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Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133184 - 23/04/09 02:04 AM

Steve, no problem. Just tell us how long you have to hold a cat in that position to stretch it any significat amount on the nose to tail tip measurement? Or do you need a tree to hang it from overnight?
Seriously though, I will try I on the next cat we shoot, and post back the results. If there are a statisticly significat stretch, I owe you a beer, otherwise you owe me a Jägermeister...

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133185 - 23/04/09 02:06 AM

Shakari,

As far as I'm concerned especially if you know and play with a house cat they are very supple and stretch very easy just pick it up like would for the bear hug on that leopard. I'm sure Karl didnt go and stretch that leopard between a vehicle and a tree I wont use the word land rover as everyone knows they dont last in the bush LOL.

And the cat being 1 inch over the minimum on skull measurement I would say the length sounds correct. BTW taking your height in consideration with the good cat's first photo and last it doesnt look too much stretched out except for the legs on the ground the angle of the first photo and you not holding the cat properly high enough.

Even if you would stretch the cat on the ground as much as possible without the help of ropes or any other tool I'm sure youre not going to get more than 4"-6" difference anyway.

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #133190 - 23/04/09 02:38 AM

Karl,

I reckon they start to stretch pretty much immediatly and that pic of me holding the cat under it's forelegs was taken less than an hour after death but the time it had spent being held like that would probably be less that 20 minutes in total as we had to keep putting the damn thing down......... as you can see from the expression on my face when it's over my shoulders, it was helluva heavy.... so heavy in fact that by the time I'd carried it 5 or 10 minutes down the hill, my knees were threatening to buckle.

I'd actually be reluctant to guesstimate a percentage of possible stretch but it's a significant amount...... probably over 10% if held in that position for about an hour....... whether it varies from cat to cat or depends on age of cat etc, I've no idea though. It could also well be that stretch factor lessens or stops as body heat is lost...... I guess ambient temperature could well also be a factor and I further guess all that'd be logical.

Hey, I'll be happy to buy the first beer or three either way!

Safarihunt

I think you missed my point, or perhaps more than one.

I wasn't for a moment suggesting that Karl had stretched the cat at all and I've no idea where you got that idea from. I might not agree with Karl about everything (esp bullets ) but have never questioned or doubted his professionalism at all. I did also say I think the stretch factor is there for all cats.

I also didn't mention length versus skull measurement as one has bugger all to do with the other and as far as I'm concerned length is as irrelevent as weight. The ONLY relevent measurement on a cat is the skull which is why ALL the record books only take the skull measurement into consideration. My point was I didn't think the client had any cause for complaint at all........ and if it had me, I'd have told him so.

As to ropes and things, you don't need 'em because gravity will cause the stretch........ but why would anyone deliberately stretch it anyway? As I've said more than once, length and weight don't mean anything at all and the only people who think they do, don't know what they're talking about.

The reason those things are discussed so much is that a 200 lb cat sounds more impressive than a cat with a 15 or 16 inch skull but the truth is that the cat might have just eaten or not eaten for several days because of mating or be diseased or riddled with worms and all those things can affect the weight........... but NONE of them can affect the skull measurement.

Hope that helps.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/04/09 02:40 AM)

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SafariHunt
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 468
Loc: Pretoria RSA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133194 - 23/04/09 03:27 AM

Quote:

I wasn't for a moment suggesting that Karl had stretched the cat at all and I've no idea where you got that idea from.



If you would read the post above yours from "Xausa" you will see where I got the idea from you will also see I added "LOL" (Laugh out loud) in the end which has got nothing to do with your post.

I will still stick to what I believe and wait for Karl to come back with an answer with the next leopard he bags.

And before you start assuming that I believe in weight and lenght and not skull size I'm just trying to make my point that I do not believe that stretching of cats makes such a big difference.

If I'm wrong it would be very interesting to find out if it's only with cats or with other animals too ?

--------------------
"Sleeping under the African sky I can see nothing wrong with this world!"

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shakari
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Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: SafariHunt]
      #133198 - 23/04/09 04:19 AM

Sorry mate, I just don't see your point. It reads to me as though you're arguing against yourself, but maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, either way, I guess it doesn't really matter.

Getting back to the point, my guess is it'd possibly/probably happen to other species, but to a much lesser degree (because all cats or all that I know of, are usually considerably more flexible than other animals) but the less flexible mammals such as antelope tend not to held up like that immediatly after death anyway. By the time they're back at the skinning sheds and hung up, the rigor mortis has set in and the stretch factor wouldn't happen.

What is difficult, is getting them back into shape after they've stretched. Push too hard and they bend, not hard enough and nothing happens.......... I've not thought about it until now, but I wonder if they go back to their more usual shape as they cool and rigor mortice sets in....... the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that it happens. I remember taking on in the Selous 2 years ago that stretched during the first lot of pics and we then put it on the truck and by the time we got there and had Kabubi, we took more shots of it and it was back to a more normal shape.

I lost a bunch of pics a while ago but I'll have a look and see if I can find any of that one to post.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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