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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: Southeastern USA
DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN?
      #53381 - 27/03/06 10:53 AM

Mark Sullivan brings up the question--

Should we go against DG with "honor" by purposely provoking a charge and a die vs die scenario?? Is this "honorable" showdown have merit or is it just thrill seeking to the extreme?

Or should we hunt these formidable dangerous animals who can kill us so easily unarmed with the best tools we can bring to bear and harvest them effectively and efficiently one on one?

I personally believe to face DG purposely with a die vs die scenario attributes these dumb animals human qualities they don't possess.It devalues and demeans the value of human life to put it on the same level as DG.We are supposed to function above their level.

The good Lord put us here to manage these animals ethically and we should do so by harvesting them with the minimal amount of pain but NOT go toe to toe with horns, teeth, claws, and massive musculature that can waste us in a second unless we have no options.

Just my 2cents--



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (27/03/06 10:54 AM)

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gryphon
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #53392 - 27/03/06 02:42 PM

Yep the whole idea is to hunt the animal in question and its for bloody hunting not for life endangering puposes especially when it stomps or bites...a case of another video salesman spruiking me thinks!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: gryphon]
      #53395 - 27/03/06 02:58 PM

If you are confident enough to face it, I don't see any ethical problem with inducing a charge.

Large animals are going to take several minutes to die without a brain or spine shot, so if approaching the animal too closely and upwind and towards its head induces a charge and a quick brain shot death, I don't see that as being any different from shooting it again at 50 metres and it still taking another two or three minutes to die.

Who hasn't sat by quietly for two or three minutes waiting for buffalo or eland shot to the heart to quietly die? I call letting the animal die in peace, also respecting the animal.

As for human emotions, a buffalo is merely defending itself as instinct has instilled in it for thousands of years.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Boomer
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: NitroX]
      #53402 - 28/03/06 12:10 AM

Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes hunting and what is simply game shooting. Sullivan's style of hunting is not for everyone, but he does bring fair chase to a new, and I think higher level. The game is stalked on foot, and dispatched quickly after the first shot is fired, therefore it is nonsensical to attack his style of hunting from an ethical platform. What makes one wish to hunt dangerous game? If it is simply a matter of collecting heads - taken with no more emotion than shooting over a prairie dog town that's fine, and those hunts are certainly available, but I know which experience I would sooner have. I don't hunt for food or trophies - I hunt for the joy of hunting, and I am confident that by booking my hunt with Mark, I have invested in an special experience.

--------------------

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shakari
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: Boomer]
      #53409 - 28/03/06 01:27 AM

Actually Boomer, I hope you won't mind me correcting you a little there. MS has the reputation of having a hell of a lot more charges than other PHs.....and that can only be achieved one way and that's to have a situation where a lot more animals get wounded and then pressured during the follow up.... therefore I personally believe MS can be criticised for his hunting ethics.......

for me the best reasons for hunting were coined by Sher Jung who wrote:- " The jungle is the place to test one's own mettle & one's skill. It is a place for personal & individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it's own choosing and to outwit it in it's own game of woodcraft is the real joy & thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing: Killing is the least important part of it. "

To put it in perspective, MS probably seems to have more charges in a season than I've had in 25 years of hunting in Africa, 15 of those years Professionally. I hunt on foot and like to get very close to the quarry and 90% of the Buff my clients take are closer than 40 yards - some as close as 10 yards - so how do you account for his far higher wound rate?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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allenday
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #53410 - 28/03/06 02:20 AM

I've enjoyed two safaris with Mark Sullivan, and I haven't seen anything unethical or underhanded when I was hunting with him, in fact, far from it. Mark has had a tremendous work ethic, has shown superb judgement, and much of our hunting has been done on foot, the old-fashioned way, and shooting from the rig has been kept to a minimum. All of the animals I've shot with Mark were put in the salt straight-up, and I did all my own shooting to put them there. My own experience with him has left nothing to criticize.

What Mark has done that I personally have trouble with and won't be party to is letting an animal that was already wounded stand there and bleed until given the opportunity to charge. Ethically, I think an animal that has been wounded (and not intentionally wounded, either) should be finished ASAP, pure and simple.

Now, if someone wants to let an UNWOUNDED animal "decide how he's going to die", stand there and take the charge, then apply a brain shot to settle the dispute, that's up to them.

Personally, I don't want to do it that way, I won't do it that way, and I'm too chicken to do it that way !

AD

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Boomer
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: shakari]
      #53417 - 28/03/06 03:55 AM

Steve - from reading your posts since I discovered Nitro Express, I believe you are also a man I would enjoy hunting with.

I do not believe that the PH has a lot of control over the shot placement made by his client - to say nothing of the suitability of the client's rifle, ammunition, or ability. Wounded game is going to happen despite our best efforts. The question then becomes how to best deal with a wounded animal. I like Sullivan's approach of taking up the trail immediately, if only because it is the quickest way to bring things to a conclusion. I think that the concept of giving the animal time to lie down and stiffen leaves much to be desired, however, it is again the client who determines if he should wait for a fight or flight response from the wounded animal, or he can choose to end things as soon as the animal is spotted within range on the follow up.

--------------------

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larcher
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: shakari]
      #53418 - 28/03/06 04:10 AM

Steve, Allen,

What is disturbing me in MS comportement is the show.
" The jungle is the place to test one's own mettle & one's skill." no doubt MS has mettle, the question is : does he test his own mettle or does he perform a show about his unusual recklessness?
Will he trigger a charge when alone or far from any camera? Is he a courageous man anytime for the fun and machism or only to display a thrilling torero scenario so as to show how plucky he is?

Napoleon was talking about the Midnight courage , the courage some of his field marshals and generals had when the night had come, when the battle was on the point to be lost or when the emperor didn't see them fighting.
Murat was a handsome and sumptuously clad field marshall ever leading during charges only a riding crop at hand, but a showman.
Ney was a tough field marshal, never renouncing and always couragous even alone or during the nightbattles.

Has MS the Midnight courage ?

Albeit being a frenchman, mine is the Dutch courage.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

Edited by larcher (28/03/06 04:14 AM)

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jorge
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: larcher]
      #53424 - 28/03/06 05:20 AM

Suffice to say Marshall Ney "screwed the pooch" at Waterloo in wasting all that fine cavalry, but then again Grouchy (sp?) didn't help matter either but I digress....

Allen is the only one here that's hunted with the man and Allen's integrity is beyond reproach so what he states is good enough for me. I must admit I do enjoy Mak's videos, particularly his older ones, but one thing is certain; Client marksmanship, especially most of the ones carrying doubles is absolutely horrendous so I think Mark is professionally compelled to do a lot of shooting in order to AVOID having to chase a wounded animal into the tall grass.

Now having said that, his videos have to be taken in context of their raison d' etre, that is, to make money. All of his clients know full well what is going on and are on board with the plan. I don't think I would subscribe to it, but then again I don't like hunting with hounds and shooting animals off trees.

If you do it, that's your business and that is what Mark's videos are, just business. As far as "honor' is concerned, I hold that accolade almost in "god status" in my line of work and animals just don't rate it. jorge

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canguk
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: jorge]
      #53431 - 28/03/06 08:52 AM

...animals don't rate it????
To not hold one's quarry in honor is a to kill without valor!
I'm better than that and glad true sportsmen/women are too.

--------------------
IN GOD WE TRUST !!

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Will
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: allenday]
      #53434 - 28/03/06 10:49 AM

Holy crap! Now this is a new leaf.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: Will]
      #53441 - 28/03/06 12:02 PM

As has been stated before, one must remember, the hunts on video made for a video production, are probably not the same as the hunts conducted for clients.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: canguk]
      #53444 - 28/03/06 12:26 PM

Mrriam-Webster Thesaurus gives synonyms of enoble and glorify for "honor". I would humbly suggest that a dumb non cognitive beast responding on the basis of thousands of years of genetic programming doesn't quite reach the level of opposition to GLORIFY it.

Respect-absolutely, but to "honor" such an animal by risking life and limb by confronting him at HIS ADVANTAGE?? For What other than the thrill of surviving the encounter?Do it enough and you will probably DIE!! That is just STUNT HUNTING in my humble opinion.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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4seventy
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #53452 - 28/03/06 01:22 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that I've seen most of Mark Sullivans films, and I have enjoyed watching them and have learned something from each one.
I'm not going to question the man's ethics as I wasn't there when these hunts and films were done.
I enjoy his tapes/DVD's for the close up camera work, the quality game which is taken, and the fact that a lot of double rifles are featured.
Usually, as soon as his name appears in any forum, a mob gathers, and starts ripping him apart.
I think maybe some are jealous/envious of MS's job, his fine doubles, his shooting ability, his nerves, and the fact that he's spent the last 16 seasons hunting/guiding in Africa with quality doubles.

Mark Sullivan regularly takes the hardest and most dangerous way of hunting and finishing off dangerous game, and his ethics are often brought into question by those who would seem to prefer an easier way of doing it.
Each to their own I say.
There are other ways to hunt DG than popping the best head from a big mob at 75 yards with a scoped boltgun IMO.


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MRobinson
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: 4seventy]
      #53453 - 28/03/06 01:26 PM

These "choose your manner of death" videos don't seem to feature wounded leopards or lions much, do they?

To paraphrase Orwell, some animals are (apparently) more equal than others.

--------------------
Mike

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hoppdoc
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: 4seventy]
      #53526 - 29/03/06 04:22 AM

Absolutely no intent is made by any of my statements as to the capabilities of MS. I have no doubt that if I had to face a charge I would want him backing me up.I also have no doubt that I could learn much from watching him handle his Doubles.

The only question I wished to debate was his provoked confrontation of DG and the ethics involved. For most hunters lacking his abilities many of those charges would have a dismal ending. Hopefully for him it is not stunt hunting but a done deal.

How many of us wish to provoke a charge and find out if we can repeat MS feats??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #53532 - 29/03/06 05:23 AM

In reply to:

How many of us wish to provoke a charge and find out if we can repeat MS feats??



I believe I could have had just such an opportunity last year with a scrub bull. After being shot twice with a .450 it came running down the hill looking "a bit angry". I reloaded a round from behind the tree from whence I first shot it, and it dropped from the third shot.

Later with hindsight I wondered, if I had stepped out from the tree whether it would have charged and I could have done an "MS" (or not! ). But I can say my confidence level is not up there yet. If it happens you deal with it (or not), if you provoke a charge intentionally, you had better be pretty competent.

Of course Graham Williams, the PH said, it might have run away as well. As it was they were already chambering their rifles and he can be heard on video saying to another client "Wal, load up your .416, here it comes!"


***

I was considering this thread at work today. Does anyone know the series of rifles, or more specifically calibres/chamberings MS has progressed through?

In earlier movies I remember a .450/400 and maybe a .450 No.2. But later movies he appears to have progressed to larger bores??? Maybe for good life preserving reasons.

Can anyone name the progression overtime or am I wrong?


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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8x56mn
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: NitroX]
      #53535 - 29/03/06 05:51 AM

.600 NE,

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gryphon
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: 8x56mn]
      #53537 - 29/03/06 05:59 AM

All in all we can go to the snake killing dog theory,you know the dog that has killed heaps of snakes with impunity,trouble is one day a snake will get him...law of averages stuff eh!
Now if someone is doing what MS does all the time isnt there a chance that eventually he may have some serious strife himself.
Nothing against him at all just an observation of how the world ticks..

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: gryphon]
      #53539 - 29/03/06 06:44 AM

I'm somewhat surprised that neither Mark or any of his clients have been stomped or tossed yet. Say what you will about his methods, the man has confidence, and he shoots very well.

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canguk
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #53542 - 29/03/06 08:18 AM

So many question his motives and methods yet how many have hunted with him? I never have though I have spoken to several whom did and all spoke highly of the man, his ethics and abilities.
Mark is indeed making cash from his DVD sales and I for one congradulate him on finding a way to do so in a field he endears.
I am told he is simply the best at what he does. I do not know this first hand but I would love to find out for myself.

--------------------
IN GOD WE TRUST !!

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Will
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: canguk]
      #53552 - 29/03/06 11:02 AM

In the few tapes that I had, and sold!, it wasn't just MS shooting. Most of the "charges" were group efforts with many guns ablazing.

And when the wounded buff was in the long grass, MS was in the back of the Cruiser!

It is just bullshit, any way anyone tries to spin it.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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allenday
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: Will]
      #53553 - 29/03/06 11:10 AM

Will, that was just ONE episode from Mark's video, 'Mbogo', and EVERYONE was back in the 'Cruiser during that episode, and rightfully so......

AD

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: allenday]
      #53556 - 29/03/06 12:18 PM

AD...you're right about that one. As I recall the grass was simply too high and thick to walk through safely. He made the right call using the vehicle to follow up on that wounded Buffalo. As I recall, the hunter was physically handcapped as well.

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Johnson
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Re: DG ETHICS-HARVEST or SHOWDOWN? [Re: NitroX]
      #53562 - 29/03/06 01:58 PM

In reply to:

I was considering this thread at work today. Does anyone know the series of rifles, or more specifically calibres/chamberings MS has progressed through?




Copied and pasted from MS website

1992 was also the first year to use a .577 Nitro Express double rifle and I wanted to see what effect its 750 grain bullets travelling at 2150 feet per second would have on buffalo. To my surprise, it produced less than expected results and I soon learned an important lesson. It's not the size or speed of the bullet that counts, but where it's placed.

1996, This is also the first year that I used a .600 Nitro Express double rifle and its 900 grain bullets. The effect this gun has on game must be seen to be believed.

"Death at my feet" filmed around 2000? IIRC
Using my much trusted and beloved .600 Nitro Express double rifle and its 900 grain bullets, Death At My Feet features two extraordinary buffalo charges and one incredible rogue bull hippo charge with all three beasts dropping dead at my feet

"Death by the ton" (released 2004 or 2005)
In this movie you will see me hunting with a number of fine double rifles. My favorite, of course, is the .600 Nitro Express shooting 900 grain fist-sized bullets at 2,000 feet per second. I also use a beautiful Charles Osborn .577 (750 grain bullets) and a .500 Nitro Express (570 grain bullets) made by William Evans of London.

In his latest movie filmed in 2005 "Death Rush"
He states that he was using his 577 nitro with 750 gr bullets. page will not let me copy and paste.
http://www.nitroexpresssafaris.com/

I have only seen the previews for his movies, so I have no opinion but it's amusing. 40+ dollars a movie is too steep for me to pay.

PS- If anyone has a copy I will be glad to review it

Johnson

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