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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: BFaucett]
      #19964 - 23/10/04 09:08 PM

Joe Coogan may have been around the block a few times, but every article about the 7mm has to drag out Bell's exploits, like it was some sort of benchmark about the wonders of the 7x57.

The fact that Bell, by his own admission, had to repeatedly finish off wounded elephants with a bigger rifle seems to get overlooked.

And having Daddy stand by with the big gun while the daughter whacks a bull with a 7mm Mauser has little relevance, in my opinion.

Coogan shoots a sable with his original .275 Rigby. Big whoop! Not exactly elephant size.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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BFaucett
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Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 449
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Will]
      #19974 - 24/10/04 08:11 AM

In reply to:

Poster: Will
...And having Daddy stand by with the big gun while the daughter whacks a bull with a 7mm Mauser has little relevance, in my opinion.



I agree that the Bell angle gets over played when discussing the 7x57. I just thought it was interesting that Gail Selby took her first elephant with one of Bell's rifles that Ruark had given to Mark Selby. Some real historical connections there. And heck, Gail was only 14 at the time so I can understand her using a smaller caliber rifle for that hunt.

-Bob F.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: BFaucett]
      #19975 - 24/10/04 10:22 AM

I agree with your thoughts and I do not begrudge a good article that I found intersting and entertaining, but I grow weary of the old comments about Bell, and the inference that the 7x57 is some sort of wonder cartridge.

Maybe I am just jealous that I wasn't shooting elephant at age 14!

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Siskiyous6
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Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: BFaucett]
      #21111 - 22/11/04 03:59 PM

Thanks for the link to Gail Selby's site. So much Africa, so little time.

Harry Selby's choice, the 416 Rigby, is the practical one for Elephant today. However, most of us will never have the where with all for that experience. We should marvel at all the ways there are to hunt, rather than argue about them.

Bell did what he did for his own practical reasons. He wrote well of them, and we are richer for it. The 7X57 is capable of great things, and does a lot of lesser things very well too. I love mine.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Siskiyous6]
      #21127 - 22/11/04 05:59 PM

Against my better judgement, I "allowed" my son to take his .280 Rem. to Africa to hunt plainsgame. He was and is not into shooting like his old man, so punishing him with a .375 was too much, and I gave in.

The .280 (like a 7xx57 on speed) worked fine except on a sable that should have dropped but didn't. We found it dead not far off, but a .375 would have dropped it in its tracks. I don't think you can made little guns into big ones, regardless of bullet weight, type, placement, or history.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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jgttechjunkie
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Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #21314 - 25/11/04 12:05 PM

I remember reading a story many years ago about some African tribe, as an initiation rite, having their young men run under elephants to disembowel them with machetes. Was that story nonsense?

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jgttechjunkie
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Reged: 20/02/04
Posts: 59
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #21315 - 25/11/04 12:12 PM

Here is an article I found on the web. Okay, this is not sport or ivory hunting. But wow!

"Some pygmies of the western Congo use a system of concealing their scent when hunting elephants. Few of these little jungle dwellers hunt elephants, but those that do have chosen about the most dangerous way to secure food in today’s world.

Hunting is done by a single man using a spear with a large metal spearhead and thick shaft. After taking the trail behind an elephant herd, the hunter pauses frequently to coat his skin with fresh elephant droppings for several days until he has lost all human scent.

Closing on the herd, the pygmy selects his prey, usually a young adult. He watches this animal until he is aware of its distinctive habits – how often it dozes, eats, turns, wanders out of the herd, and other individual behavior.

Then he moves toward his prey, usually at midday when the herd is dozing while standing. The little hunter moves silently between the elephant’s legs, braces himself and drives the spear up into the stomach area for several feet. The elephant snaps to alertness, screaming and trying to reach his diminutive attacker. Many pygmy hunters have lost their lives at this moment, but if the little hunter is fast enough, he pulls out the spear to facilitate bleeding and ducks for safety.

Death does not come for several days, and the hunter must follow his wounded prey until it stops. When the elephant falls, the pygmy cuts off the tail as proof of his kill and sets off for his village, which may be several days away by now.

Today’s Stone Age Elephant Hunters

(Source: Vacca & Vacca, 1993:214)"

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Indy
.224 member


Reged: 23/04/04
Posts: 22
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Siskiyous6]
      #22017 - 09/12/04 03:46 PM

Why shouldn't the 7x57 be just fine for elephants? The 170 grain bullet has just about the same sectional density as a 500 grain .458 bullet or a 300 grain .375 bullet, which means that a good solid will penetrate just as far. The diameter difference probably does not mean much unless you're interested in a blood trail. While an "elephant rifle" has about twice the striking energy, this is about equivalent to 50 foot points on a white tail deer vs. 25 foot pounds. I don't think you kill elephants with energy. And anyone can shoot the 7x57 more accurately.

I've read Bell's books. I do not recall him having said it was necessary to finish elephants with a heavier rifle. And the only reason he did not like body shots--with the 7mm or anything else--was that the elephant would trumpet loudly and run, thus stampeding the herd so he couldn't shoot more than one. With a brain shot, the elephant would simply fall down, and the others would not take alarm (in those years).

Bell liked his 6.5x54 Mannlicher for elephants except that the bullets were not crimped in the cases. While unloading the rifle, he got a bullet stuck in the rifling. But he had no problem with killing power. One afternoon he shot several elephants with it, before getting the bullet stuck. After that, he only shot lesser game like buffalo and lion with it. It shot a very long 160 grain solid at about 2100 fps.

The reason he liked his .318 was that it had a 10-shot magazine. He kept hoping he'd find a situation where he could kill 10 in one place.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Ivory-Elephants and Bell [Re: Indy]
      #22033 - 09/12/04 09:19 PM

Bell was from the school that if one was wounded and ran off, then it ran off. Hmmm, I guess that was before trophy fees.

I don't know of one ele PH using a .375 much less a 7x57.

I could go on and on but the idea of using a 7x57 to hunt elephant today is just absurd.




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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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