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NitroXAdministrator
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Mad Cow Cull
      #38960 - 10/10/05 01:07 PM

I'm off to the NT again this week to hunt some mad cows. Hopefully!

A recent advert showed up an opportunity to do some water buffalo cow culling near Arnhemland and I decided to take up the opportunity to do some shooting a la the sixties and seventies when the buff was king (or queen) of the Top End wetlands.

I'm taking up the opportunity to 'practice' on some cow water buffalo culls with my .450 NE and 9.3x74R doubles. Hopefully somewhere between five and twenty.

As I probably ate 'mad cow' infected beef when living in the UK I'm already half-way there so it should not be a problem.

See you soon.

I urgently need to do some reloading as I don;t have any .450s and still need to regulate the 9.3mm!


Have fun and be bad while I am away.


Link added to fb

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (28/07/10 03:56 AM)


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ORION
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Re: Mad Cow Cull [Re: NitroX]
      #38975 - 10/10/05 10:00 PM

WAIDMANNSHEIL


ORION


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SAHUNT
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Re: Mad Cow Cull [Re: NitroX]
      #38977 - 10/10/05 10:31 PM

The boss is gone and he gave us permission to behave badly.

Enjoy it John



--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
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SA Hunting Experience


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cr500
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Re: Mad Cow Cull [Re: NitroX]
      #39195 - 16/10/05 08:06 PM

When do you get there? I presume you are talikng about going to Conway?. I will be at Conway from 21st to 25th Oct, then holidaying in Darwin for another week. Will you be at Conway around that time?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull [Re: cr500]
      #39224 - 17/10/05 07:29 PM

Yes it was Conways. Just got back to SA yesterday and home today.

Just a couple of days for me there, I flew up and also had dinner with Marrakai plus some other ex-Darwin lads on the way home to NSW after a WA pig cull.

My score:

14 buffalo cows (two were actually bulls) and several calves not counted;
3 pigs;
1 great trophy scrub bull;
2 brumbies; &
1 donkey.

Shot with the 9.3x74R. Could have shot a lot more buffalo if I wanted.

Will report more plus some photos sooner or later.

You will have a fun time. Shoot lots of buff for George.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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EzineAdministrator
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Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #41014 - 08/11/05 06:20 PM

Here are some photos from the buffalo cow cull at Conway's,
Central Arnhemland.



One of the cow water buffalos culled.

The new owners of the cattle station which has a common boundary with Arnhemland and straddles the Central Arnhemland "Highway", wanted approximately 200 small horned cow water buffalo shot. A fairly cheap daily fee including for expensive petrol or diesel, vehicle use, food, plus a reasonable fee for each buffalo shot. Non-trophy boars, donkeys, and horses were free. Trophy scrub bulls had a very reasonable fee.

The owners are Kiwis and run a successful hunting and guiding business and farm in the South Island of New Zealand. They plan to re-develop the station into a profitable cattle station with a hunting and guiding outfitting business as well. These culls were rough hunts before they are properly setup for next year.

I flew from Adelaide to Darwin arriving mid-day and hired a car to drive down to the Central Arnhemland Highway turn-off which was South of Katherine. Had dinner in Katherine and spent too long on phone calls to various people and drove out to Conways in the dark. The road is OK but very corrugated and if one drove too fast the vibrations were dangerous, so generally 40 to 70 kmph was the speed. Unlike the Stuart Hwy. Got there well after dark, maybe 9:00 PM just as George and a Kiwi friend were driving out to look for me. Just in time. I had phoned from Katherine that I was on my way. Daylight driving back out was much better.





Check out this bullet. What do you think?

Even though I hunted in Arnhemland and drove right passed this place I jumped at the opportunity to shoot "numbers" of buffalo. Not that many opportunities to do this these days. Also would give me some practice with my new 9.3x74 mm Rimmed Tikka double under and over.

I used loads of Woodleigh 286 gr Protected Points and FMJs at about 2170 fps. Very mild shooting but damned accurate.

The rifle is topped with a 1-4x Leupold scope.

The weather was becoming hotter as it does at the beginning of October. A reason I wanted to get in there no later than mid-October. BUT this was culling and shooting, not much real hunting. Shooting from a vehicle or near one mostly. It is not possible to cover enough ground and get the numbers wanted and at this time of the year, it is hot.





A couple more cow buffs shot the second day. I managed to shoot ten the first day, at which I called a halt, so as to leave some for the second day.

The first kills was a mob of pigs. Evidently George and other farm workers had spotted them there every day. He said instead of shooting a target to verify the scope was on target shoot some pigs. Peering over a river bank I spotted the largest sow I had ever seen. Stupidly I realised it was a dead buffalo from a previous cull. But two pigs were walking determinedly away and I brought down one of these. We crossed over and peered over the river bank back down into the water. A flood of pigs ran off in both directions up and down stream, but two that ran in front of me, received a quick bullet each from the 1x scoped sighted 9.3mm.




Escapees! Actually we let them go.



George with another cow.




Bloody slaughter. Three cows (one is a bull actually) shot within a few metres of each other. George would identify which ones he wanted shot. I would shoot one and sometimes he would call which one was next. The second barrel would be used. Reload, maybe pop the first again and go for the third. Reload, maybe pop one of the other two again if it looked too healthy. Maybe then shoot an unweaned calf whose mother had been shot.

Good fun and practice. The barrels can get hot.

Approaching some buffalo another time across a dry creek from us, we dropped down to the creek bed and started up the opposing bank. The buff moved off but we came across a frisky bull. He turned and came back at us, shaking and swinging his head around at maybe 30 metres. We turned tail and ran back up the other river bank as we didn;t want to shoot him. I grabbed the video and came back to the bank to film him (no rifle), causing George to come running with his rifle just in case! The bull was screened by trees now unfortunately.





I took the horns of two of these three buffalo, The top one is actually a bull. The second a cow with more scimitar shaped horns. The last a young cow or maturing calf.


Another three, plus calf. Three animals in the foreground and the fourth to the back.



A scrub turkey, or bustard. They are supposedly good eating but protected. We spotted this one and took some photographs. I then approached it with the video camera to try to get it to fly. George said it would just run off. But four bastards all got up to fly with their impressive wingspans. Hopefully captured well on film.

After shooting the ten buffalo on the first day we went to a favourite donkey spot and on the other side of a fine new barbed wire fence was a herd of male buffalos and some brumbies.

So we went for the horses. They had easily spotted us and ran off, but George predicted correctly they would circle back for a curious look. Horses are a nuisance in that they destroy fences very quickly and so he wanted as many shot as possible. He joined me on this shoot and he aimed with a full wood .303 SMLE while I aimed with my 9.3mm. We both fired and of course shot the same stallion. A fine bronze beast. I shot at another horse at full gallop across our front and hit it. Reloaded and finished it off. Shot at another at a much longer range but missed.

Now we chased the buff bu they kept on in the direction they were headed, away from us. An amazingly fast little stream cut across the flat ground in front of us. Amazing in that it was completely full, to the top, but didn't over-run and flowed very fast.

The buff turned out to be all bulls so we let them go.

We didn't take any photos of the horses. George does not like too and I didn't want too. But in hindsight I wish I had.




George has a special "safari area" which has lots of game and is a very pleasant drive. In the middle of this area is an impressive swamp and waterhole and springs which collects the buffalo, scrub cattle, pigs and donkeys. We spotted maybe 40 or 50 animals at this site.

On the way there we came across a loan donkey. Shot with the 9.3 he kept standing for a second round. Maybe a third I forget before sinking down leaving his head up. Another round. Finally he was finished off with a bullet to the brain with the .303 to conserve ammo. All the 9.3 hits were good. As usual the donkey proved how stubborn it is. I had left the camera in the vehicle so didn't take a pic. Didn't get another donkey as I hoped so no donkey photos.

What really drew the attention however was the more than impressive scrub bull. It was walking off from the main swamp to another smaller higher one to our right. Grabbing cameras and rifles we jumped out of the vehicle and ran to a ridge of rocks separating us from the upper swamp.

At the top of the rise, with a rock ridge extending above us, was a really lovely clear drinking pool fed by springs in the cliff face. It was obviously a choice place for the animals to drink.

More to our interest was the scene in front of us. The scrub cattle were busy crossing the green area in the first photo above, with a small herd of buffalo coming from the other direction. They passed through each other, the buffalo blocking the bull most of the time, keeping him safe. Finally the scrub cattle moved out of the thick green reeds and grass to stand on the rocky ground above. The bull of course choose to cover his target area with a tree. I had a good rest with a daypack on a rock so we just stayed there, shot some photos and video and waited.



The bull turns to us and moves out from the tree. He is about 170 metres away. I am ready instantly and fire a 286 gr Woodleigh Protected Point into his heart - lung area angling a little forward. The bull turned away from us. I had loaded a solid into the second barrel, just in case he ran, and fired this trying for the base of the tail, but missed the spine. Reload and hit him again a couple more times, these in the chest. Of course pandemonium broke out with animals running in every direction, but I had my "tunnel vision" determinedly on the bull.

The bull was on the ground but still sitting up at this point. We approached closer and I tried for a spine shot but missed the spine. Eventually he died.






As can be seen a lovely old scrub bull with fantastic horns. Definitely a trophy worth taking.




Some of the countryside in the "safari area". The safari area abuts Aboriginal Arnhemland and has a steady stream of new buffalo crossing the boundaries.



Our "bull bar" strapped on, we depart for camp to have a late lunch, start a fire to boil off the skulls and clean the horns and bones.

The two sets of buff horns and the scrub bull skull and horns would be going home with me on the flight to Adelaide. Interestingly the flight was an international Qantas flight from Singapore, via Darwin to Adelaide and then Sydney. I wondered how carrying firearms and ammo (even though pre-arranged) would go, as officially you leave Australia on these flights. In Adelaide I waited for my special packages, rifle case and the slightly smelly horns and skulls. The drug sniffing dogs liked my bags very much and always sat next to me. But the customs dog handlers accepted the explanation readily and never bothered other than to give their dogs a biscuit. The stink of the heads was a worry most of it being created in the long drive to the Stuart Highway and then from Katherine to Darwin. The unlimited speed limits do help! But theheads were pretty well cleaned and I sat them in front of the air-conditioner all night to help dry out a bit.

I also brought home some fillets (tenderloins) and backstraps from a couple of the buffalo.

All in all a very enjoyable two day shoot. It felt like a week and honestly I would get bored with it before a week was up.

The game bag:
12 cow water buffalo, 2 small horned bull water buffalo, shot as cows, plus a few unweaned calves;
3 x pigs;
2 x brumbies (wild horses);
1 x donkey;
1 x trophy scrub bull.

The Tikka 9.3mm has gone from being completely unblooded to a respectable game bag in two days. It did very well.

I would however do it again.



The horns of the scrub bull.



Horns from one cow and one bull water buffalo taken as decorations for my office.


--------------------

Ezine.NitroExpress.com

Edited by NitroX (09/11/05 02:01 AM)


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Marrakai
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Ezine]
      #41028 - 09/11/05 12:21 AM

Great photos John, obviously you had a ball, but I think you better explain THIS!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Marrakai]
      #41034 - 09/11/05 01:47 AM

Stories and comments added.

Marrakai

What do you think of the bullet?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Charles_Helm
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Ezine]
      #41068 - 09/11/05 08:12 AM

Very nice -- thanks for the report and pictures. Do you get the feeling they will be culling next year as well, or are they moving to the "trophy' operation?

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story


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500Nitro
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #41070 - 09/11/05 08:40 AM


NitroX,

I've seen this a couple of time on Buffalo.

Assuming you shot the Buffalo from the other side,
when it gets to the skin where it rests, the Expanded
bullet has alot of frontal area or if an FMJ, just normal profile
and not a great amount of velocity.

As the skin is extremely elastic it will expand out from the body
up to 1 ft and then spirng back. In the process the petals of the bullet
cut the skin and with all of the flexing it is turned sideways or the
direction it ends up is different to what it was travelling. The other thing
is that the petals can get caught as the bullet tries to get out / exit and
turns the bullet.

I have cut them out from under the skin various ways, some caused by
the above and some because once you move an animal the bullet can move.

The only way I can tell is when you cut the skin open to get the bullet it
is not as "tight" to the body as it is normally is as it has been stretched.

I was surpised when I first saw it and out of 100+ buffalo cut up it doesn't
seem to occur that often. I have also heard of it happening on deer.


500 Nitro


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41077 - 09/11/05 11:51 AM

500Nitro is right.

This is of course the exit "wound". The base of the 286 gr Woodleigh Protected Point was actually protruding. In another case a lump was evident and when sliced with a knife the bullet could be extracted. That example however was front facing as expected. Tise Protected Point bullet has however obviously turned somehow, maybe as 500Nitro suggests and come to rest rearward.

I also found a .450 480 gr round nose in a pig that had made some sort of crazy angle through the pig and was resting sideways against the pigs skin as well in August.

From my limited experience with two different calibres the protected points appear to be a little less stable when penetrating through the body of the target and may tamble more than a round nose Woodleigh. I would have expected this anyway.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #41079 - 09/11/05 12:03 PM

In reply to:

Poster: Charles_Helm
Subject: Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos

Very nice -- thanks for the report and pictures. Do you get the feeling they will be culling next year as well, or are they moving to the "trophy' operation?





Charles

The culling was meant to be a once-off, but from my calculation they have only shot about one-quarter of the number they wanted to.

I believe they have made one booking or tentative booking with a client for next year. The price might be higher though. The aim is I believe to have a proper setup next year. The camp was very basic this year and not up to even a basic standard for international guests. Only a camp stretcher and mosquito net under a tree, a couple of camp chairs by the fire, they did have a long drop toilet built and a battery driven shower setup. The shower water was warm enough in the evening from the sun, but it was setup for a fire. Probably if some tents were added and bedding, plus table and chairs they would be well on their way. The stream next to the camp was flowing and quite clear.

I will look up George's email address for you.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Nitro
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #41080 - 09/11/05 12:03 PM


NitroX

Interesting you say
with two different calibres the protected points appear to be a little less
stable when penetrating through the body of the target and may tamble
more than a round nose Woodleigh.

When testing the PP bullets I didn't find this but because of the PP
they are slower to open up than RN (which is to be expected and
designed for).

The reason this is known from what I saw (apart from the skin reason above)
si if you follow the wound channel I could see where the petals had cut through
the internal flesh / organs and / or nicked a rib or piece of bone
before hitting the skin and stopping.

Great photo though.


500 Nitro



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41081 - 09/11/05 12:07 PM

500Nitro

My very experience is only in comparing:

Woodleigh Round Noses - 300 gr in .375 and 480 gr in .450;

and

Woodleigh Protected Points - in 286gr 9.3mm.

Not even the same calibres. So nowhere near conclusive.

I want to try the Protected Points in my .375 next time I use it.

The important thing I see from that photo is it DID PENETRATE the full width of the animal and angled as well. The off-side skin is almost always too elastic for the expanded bullet with slower speed to penetrate properly. A FMJ I shot through the shoulders of a cape buffalo in my .375 however easily did and zinged and ricocheted off into the distance.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Charles_Helm
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #41083 - 09/11/05 02:12 PM

In reply to:

Charles

The culling was meant to be a once-off, but from my calculation they have only shot about one-quarter of the number they wanted to....
I will look up George's email address for you.




Thanks. My wife said I could have gone this year, but only if I could fly on miles, and I couldn't have taken my guns. If for some strange reason I have money next year it might be an interesting hunt.

If you had to pick between this one and the other buff hunt you did this year, which would you pick?

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #41378 - 12/11/05 04:22 PM

Charles

If I was flying from across the world I would not doubt hunt TROPHY water buffalo from a proper safari camp. Five or seven days.

I would like to also tag onto that hunt a pig hunt, feral hunt, or better yet a banteng hunt.

A cull hunt is fun, and was great for two days. I think I would get bored if it was more than say three days, as it is just a LOT of shooting.

Some outfitters do cull hunts on ferals where my buff cow cull hunt looks like a picnic and they shoot hundreds of animals per day. For hunters that migh shoot five (or less) animals per year, it might be a very different experience. Expect to feel shell shocked at the end however.



If I was coming to Australia to hunt and had the time and money this is what I would do as an ideal trip:

1. Book a trophy water buffalo with a reputable outfitter. Allow for a second water buffalo or scrub bull to be taken in my budget. (note scrub bulls are not found in all water buff areas) - 5 - 7 days
2. Book a banteng trophy hunt - 5 days
3. Hunt some pigs and/or other ferals maybe including scrub bull for 3 to 5 days at a station with good pig numbers. Many Arnhemland buffalo areas do not have a lot of pigs
4. Do some fishing in the estuaries - a day or two.
5. Holiday in the Top End, seeing Kakadu, Katherine River Gorge, Adelaide River Jumping Crocodiles and various other attractions - 2 or 3 days, maybe combining the fishing.
6. Fly over Sydney to Alice Springs to Darwin, see Ayers Rock (Uluru), the Olgas and Kings Canyon for a couple days at Alice Springs.
7. Fly back Darwin, Cairns, Sydney. Stop over at Cairns and visit the Great Barrier Reef, Daintree rainforest, beaches etc. 3 days to a week, to unwind and allow your wife or girlfriend to show off her new bikini. If you don't have one with find one!
8. A couple days in Sydney - Sydney Harbour attractions etc.
9. Consider a trophy rusa hunt in New Caledonia! Why not!

The most important thing you do if you do all that is allow me to make bookings for you, as I will be a rich man! (PS I am not a booking agent)



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Charles_Helm
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #41379 - 12/11/05 04:45 PM

Thanks for the detailed information and suggestions. As usual, every time I think about spending money the market moves against me. I am hoping to make another overseas hunting trip before too long but I am still not sure what is on the menu or where the restaurant is.

In reply to:

The most important thing you do if you do all that is allow me to make bookings for you, as I will be a rich man! (PS I am not a booking agent)





For the commissions on the hunts to make someone rich, it would take an even more wealthy person to pay the freight. Alas, that is not me. The real question becomes whether the trip is at least as attractive as a ten day Cape Buffalo hunt (and can I ever use my blasted American Airlines miles)?

However, if I win the lottery I will contact you for the full schedule. Otherwise I would have to think about the virtues of the Water Buff/Scrub Bull hunt versus Africa again.

I really appreciate the information.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #42236 - 23/11/05 03:03 PM

In reply to:

For the commissions on the hunts to make someone rich, it would take an even more wealthy person to pay ...




Charles,

I was only joking. I wrote down an IDEAL hunt in my opinion. How many of us could actually do it? Most of us have to be selective or do it in small bites over time.

Ah a lottery win would be nice however.

Good luck on your plans.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Charles_Helm
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #42239 - 23/11/05 03:35 PM

In reply to:

Charles,

I was only joking. I wrote down an IDEAL hunt in my opinion. How many of us could actually do it? Most of us have to be selective or do it in small bites over time.

Ah a lottery win would be nice however.

Good luck on your plans.




I knew you were joking about the ideal hunt, although the bovine slam would be interesting. I am finding myself conflicted about the next place to go and what to hunt.

We did have a $315 million lottery prize the other day. Alas, I was not the winner.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

Edited by Charles_Helm (24/11/05 04:18 AM)


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Ndumo
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #42271 - 24/11/05 03:49 AM

I have seen the same thing happening with big gemsbok bull. Their skin is also very elastic and tough, but propably not nearly as thick as waterbuff. (Will send photo to NitroX) Caliber and bullet used: .270Win with a 150gr. Nosler Partition.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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Matt_Graham
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #42434 - 26/11/05 08:07 AM

Hello Charles

I have sent you a PM.

Cheers
Matt Graham

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #45085 - 28/12/05 05:34 PM

Excuse my ignorance here, but what is a scrub bull and are they dangerous/fun to hunt? Do they charge? Do water buff charge and or are agressive like cape buff?

How much would a scrub bull/buff hunt cost US$$$$?

Thanks,
Colorado

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39904
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #57032 - 13/05/06 01:17 AM

Colorado

Sorry never saw your question.

Scrub bull are feral cattle but more coud include bulls that have been born in the wild and never mustered.

IMO, from accounts, they are more likely to charge than either water buffalo or cape buffalo.

I enjoy hunting scrub bulls.

Do water buffalo charge like cape bufalo? IMO yes, because I disagree that either charge much, especially if unwounded.

A trophy water buffalo hunt costs in Arnhemland approx US$6500 to US$8500 for five to seven days. Trophy fees US$1600 to US$2500 included for the first trophy. Maybe as low as US$4500 for the hunt and trophy fee on station country. Scrub bulls usually cost a trophy fee of around US$800, maybe (?).

Alan Moon ("4seventy") does hunts for scrub bulls and boars in Far North Queensland for good prices too if you are interested. Check with him for his prices. I hope to hunt with him one day myself.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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ovny
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Reged: 19/06/08
Posts: 591
Loc: Spain
Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: NitroX]
      #165076 - 28/07/10 04:10 AM

I have to leave my 458 Lott Ceska, you try to hunt a buffalo jejeje.

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I am Spanish


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39904
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Mad Cow Cull - Photos [Re: ovny]
      #167290 - 06/09/10 04:45 AM

Quote:

I have to leave my 458 Lott Ceska, you try to hunt a buffalo jejeje.




A .458 Lott, no problems.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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