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Marty
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: mlg]
      #40368 - 02/11/05 01:10 AM

First and foremost let me apologise for calling Orion "Shifty". Brain fart, dont know where I got it from and I am sincererly apologetic.

In reply to:

Marty, can you PM me the stories, as they sound very interesting.

Nitro. No requirement to PM anything. Any stories will be put on the public record. But we have been waiting for donkies years for either you or Orion to post what happened on the hunt. Like I said, nothing has been posted of any substance at least as far as I have seen (and I am prepared to stand corrected.... indeed hope to be). I have seen no photo and no story and considering you are usually most prolific with both, I consider this unusual. I have heard rumour an innuendo from a couple of sources (not all from the Top End) as to what occured. You, or more particullarly Orion, have every chance to tell your story and am quite content to recieve the usual poetic licence that we all tell in a good hunting yarn. But this thread has been going on for some time and there is a story that seems to be in parralel that contradicts whats been posted on this thread. I believe you and Orion have the right to a fair go. So lets hear the story and lets see the pics. I wasnt there and I am prepared to believe the story of someone who was. But like I say, there is some scuttlebut that may need to be dispelled, if only because of lack of information by any other means.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Marty]
      #40374 - 02/11/05 02:36 AM

Back again. That's it for this ffffing night.

I put the basics of the results in my previous posts.

If it rains really heavily tommorrow I might get to the photos. The unplanned short culling hunt to the NT was an interruption to a lot I had going on at the time including the stories.



PS I definitely want to hear the "other story" now and also its source.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40459 - 03/11/05 01:07 AM

ITS ABOUT TIME THIS WHOLE THING WAS PUT TO BED.

Firstly let me say that I am totally against hunting buff with anything smaller than a 338,
I expressed this opinion to Nitrox and also the PH concerned.

Both buffalo were cleanly shot,however the PH has always insisted that until the animal is on the ground you keep shooting.
Previous experience has probably dictated this.
3 shots were fired at each animal,the last 2 on each animal were only followup shots.
This is what happened so let us all move on.
Alan.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #40482 - 03/11/05 05:41 AM

I think the phrase "Use Enough Gun" fits all categories of animals.
: I own a number of smaller calibres but when it's time to go hunting for large game, I reach for the .375 - or the .458. They've NEVER let me down. I don't like tracking, although I've much experience tracking other's mistakes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (03/11/05 05:42 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #40501 - 03/11/05 12:52 PM

Alan

You do realise the actual hunt was never meant to PROVE anything. It is only some members of this board who think that! My original post was to get some discussion going and see what people think. No recommendation on whether it was a good idea, whether it was "adequate", or whether it would not kill OK

It was just a guy with a new rifle who wanted to try hunting water buffalo with it. The PH agreed, afterall there would be a PH right beside him with a .416 Rigby as well. The .416 Rigby never came to play BTW.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40518 - 03/11/05 11:33 PM

Nitro - guide with no licence. Isn't that kind of, well, illegal??

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #40521 - 04/11/05 12:44 AM

No idea?

Edited:

See my comments below.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/11/05 04:48 AM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #40604 - 04/11/05 04:55 PM

I think white anting pro hunters shooting territory is about as low as you can go !

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40612 - 04/11/05 06:03 PM


No idea ?

Come on NitroX, you know the gun laws
of this country as well as anyone.

Playing ignorant just doesn't cut it - in the forums
eyes or the laws eyes if they had caught you.

I'd censor the photos if I were you - I know people
who have been prosecuted AFTER the event based
on photos they took with illegal game / guns.

500 Nitro

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #40636 - 05/11/05 02:28 AM

Edited:
I apologise to 500Nitro and Matt Graham. it appears I did mention "licencing". Actually I have no idea what the licence situation was, only he could not bring his firearms over yet.

Since this comment the actual person referred to was clarified.

(he post as it stood)
***

500Nitro

FFFF off! People running their own business in a "glass house" shouldn't throw stones.

I have no idea if any of the guides used were licenced, just like I didn't check if Matt Graham was licenced when I hunted with him as well in 2004.

By the way what sort of "licence" are we talking about? Firearms, Outfitter, Professional Hunter, Drivers.

Who are we talking about? I hunted with two different outfits this year, and three different guides one whom was the landowner.

I doubt you know either and is it any of your business?

As a client it isn;t my responsibility to "police" an outfitter, professional hunter or landowner.


Matt Graham

I sent to you a Private Message asking for clarification on your comment. I would appreciate a reply by private message as well. I have now sent a follow-up private message seeing I still have not received a reply.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/11/05 04:18 PM)

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40696 - 05/11/05 09:52 AM

Hi John

Sorry I missed your PM's - I dont log on here every day.

As I said in the reply PM - I didnt mean anything nasty by my comments I just thought you should clarify your comments that the guy George didnt have a licence. It sounded kind of incriminating.

Cheers all
Matt Graham

--------------------
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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40702 - 05/11/05 12:16 PM

I think someone just got told.

My personal oppinion is that this particular thread should be frozen .
its getting way off track.
we have all had a bit of fun and given our oppinions so let us all move on.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #40707 - 05/11/05 02:18 PM

Matt

retracting the statements made on this thread - it appears I did say it.

(I made no comment about "licences" on my threads. etc ...)

Personally I have no idea of the gentleman's licence situation.






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/11/05 04:15 PM)

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rgp
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Posts: 373
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40718 - 05/11/05 03:18 PM

I've been reading this thread and believe that information on results with a 6.5 and other smallbores on buffalo and cattle is quite useful, not because I would intentionally hunt anything as large as buffalo with a small calibre weapon, but rather because you're not always armed with the weapon of your choice when you need to kill something that doesn't like you. If in an area with buffalo or even domestic cattle and you're there working rather than hunting, a heavy rifle is frequently left behind and if a problem occurs, you have to make do with what you have at the time.

Richard

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40724 - 05/11/05 03:51 PM

In reply to:

George, the guide, as his own rifles were in NZ, not having a licence in Aust yet, used the station .303 no 1 Mk III full wood rifle as his back up rifle.


In reply to:

I made no comment about "licences" on my threads


Hmmmm!

Possessing or discharging the station .303 while "not having a licence in Australia yet" is lawful in the NT only if the unlicenced person is under the direct supervision and immediate proximity of a licenced shooter. Not sure what happens with clients licenced overseas, but assume a temporary licence or permit would be required.

Perhaps we need to be a bit more careful with the content of our posts...

BTW: Telling other posters to FFFoff and threatening to expose their personal details is not your usual style, John. I hope you resume your tolerance and decorum soon. This thread really did unravel a bit, but its a contentious topic: what did you expect?

Keep your cool, mate.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Marrakai]
      #40728 - 05/11/05 04:08 PM

Oops. I apologise to all and sundry. I have no idea of the licence situation. Only that he had not brought his firearms over yet. Again I apologise. Will send emails or PMs as well.

In reply to:

is lawful in the NT only if the unlicenced person is under the direct supervision and immediate proximity of a licenced shooter.



As South Australia has reciprocal rights with the Northern Territory ie a South Australian firearms licence is recognised for a visitor in the NT, and I am licensed, does this mean he was legal (no matter what his unknown personal situation) anyway. I had thought of that anyway but was unaware if the NT was the same as SA ie a foreign visitor may be supervised by an Australian licensed shooter.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40729 - 05/11/05 04:26 PM

Other than sticking my foot in my mouth, I have been loading up and working on about 200 of Orion's photos the last few nights. We also have video but it needs to be sourced from Graham Williams of the hunt (taken by "Diana" - Helen Williams who accompanied Orion on most of his hunts and did some good camera work.)






Orion's second buffalo.

Shot far too back some may say ? I asked Orion yesterdat and, No, the bullet was angled forward into the lungs/heart area and was a SINGLE shot kill.

Looking for the first buffalo photos as a block is missing.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40730 - 05/11/05 04:29 PM

And another couple.

This buffalo was too close for comfort for Orion during the hunt.

They are standing in a river bed with the river bank immediately in front. The buffalo is only a few yards away.






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #40761 - 06/11/05 12:38 AM

The first bull.



This is the "bull" that is presumably in the rumours running around the 'Top End' with a couple of bullets up its arse.


No. Orion reported it was shot from broadside, probably angling forward a little into the heart / lungs area. It then ran off, where the PH insisted on follow-up shots, into its rump and arse. These had no affect. After a while the first shot had its affect and the bull dropped and after its lungs filled with blood sufficiently it died.



Orion and the video camerawoman, Helen Williams.



Now I wonder what these photographs prove?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marty
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #41442 - 13/11/05 10:39 PM

In reply to:

Now I wonder what these photographs prove?

Well they must prove something because you saw fit to post them on another thread on your Boards....

They prove that a couple of good sized buff were taken. But all your posts on this subject have failed to answer at least two of my questions.
And I repost in hope of an answer either by you or Orion.

"We have had the promise of photos and story for some time now. Nothing has been forthcoming.

Q1. Photo of the Buff please?

Q2. How many shots did it take? And where was it hit?

Q3. Was the PH happy with the final outcome?

Q4. Would the hunter use this calibre again, and would he recommend it to other hunters?"

OK we have the photos.

It was a 4 shot kill. Anything else is conjecture. Two in the chest, plus two in the arse = 4 shots by my way of counting. 4 shots in a Buff is not outrageous. But lets call a spade a spade. It was a 4 shot kill. Not 2.

Q3 and 4 have remained unanswered. And I will add a Q5.

Why did the hunter choose this particular rifle and Calibre as being Buff capable? Was it because he believed the 6.5x54 was the best he had available? Or because it was the best going? Or was there another reason?



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: Marty]
      #41446 - 13/11/05 11:46 PM

In reply to:

Well they must prove something because you saw fit to post them on another thread on your Boards....



Well perhaps it is called a "hunting story"

***

Q3 Was the PH happy?

I suppose so. The animal died fairly close to where shot. The client was able to approach the buffalo to the range required. No animals escaped. No one was hurt. He was paid. I think, happy. Everyone in camp seemed to enjoy the week.

Q4. Would he recommend it to others?

No idea. Maybe it isn't relevant, a lot of people don't like giving "advice".

The first buffalo was 3 or 4 shots. I wasn't there. 2 were up the arse as the PH insisted and were ineffectual.

There are two different buffalo. His second buffalo was a single shot kill. I think I mentioned it. The PH again urged additional shots which he this time ignored.

Orion is not a good typer and one reason he does not post much. So to put it to rest I will answer. There is video which needs to be sourced too. Eventually that will be posted - for fun, nothing else.

The reason he choose this calibre was because he bought a new (vintage) rifle and aims to shoot all sorts of game with it. His "bigger" "long range" calibre was a 7mm STW. As said previously he has taken over 20 buffalo with the .270 (1983 approx). His biggest rifle is a .375 H&H (6 lbs! in total weight) which he has used for lion and cape buffalo in Africa (because the law insists on minimums).


***

Marty

Quid Pro Quo

I have answered your questions but you haven't answered mine. What were the rumours mentioned and who was spreading them? A PM is OK unless you are happy to answer here.

I just found that comment amusing.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #41448 - 13/11/05 11:50 PM

A change in tack for this topic.

Everyone has probably heard the stories of WDM (Karamojo) Bell and his shooting of numerous elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57 mm) but he also reguarded his .256 (6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer) as his "buffalo" meat rifle. It was also used for elephant on occasion but he preferred the 7mm for this.

I actually found the desire to use the 6.5x54MS as historically "ironic" and interesting, considering Bell considered such a rifle a "buffalo rifle".

What do you think?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ORION
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #41888 - 18/11/05 08:56 PM

Hi everyone,
thanks to John,for the pics he put up.

Thanks for all your comments,you got it all of your chest!

Saves you theraphie!

Karajamo Bell is in my view the greatest hunter of all
and I learned a lot from his books.
I put it into practise and proved he was right.

I wish people could have more open minds,but unfortunatly
most live in flatland and never make it to the top of a mountain.
Dont knock people who do.


My view off the 6.5x54 MS is one hell of a caliber,almost
as good as a 270.
Who else besides Marakai shot Buff or anything with a 6.5x54 MS?
If you havent, you definitly dont know what you talking about.
Thanks again to Australian Buffalo Hunters .

Waidmannsheil!
Orion

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DarylS
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: ORION]
      #41904 - 19/11/05 06:03 AM

Hat's off to you, Orion.
: I've never shot a buffalo, Cape or Water for that matter. This doens''t mean I cannot dream, or that I haven't studied such hunting and writings.
: Had the buff gone into thick cover, the two shots up the arse might not have been possible. The first shot, the killing shot is the important one. Had the buff needed 2 or more shots in the vitals to work, it would not have been a 1-shot kill. If one shot killed it, so be it.
: What this boils down to is I'd have no quams of shooting either with my 6.5X55, or my Daughter's .260, with appropriate bullets as I-too believe it is adequate for the job. Proper bullet placement with proper bullets works. Would I choose to use a 6.5, no, but that doesn't mean it is inadequate.
: Congratulations.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rgp
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Re: Is a 6.5x54mm adequate for Water Buffalo? [Re: NitroX]
      #41906 - 19/11/05 06:40 AM

In reply to:

Everyone has probably heard the stories of WDM (Karamojo) Bell and his shooting of numerous elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57 mm) but he also reguarded his .256 (6.5x54 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer) as his "buffalo" meat rifle. It was also used for elephant on occasion but he preferred the 7mm for this.

I actually found the desire to use the 6.5x54MS as historically "ironic" and interesting, considering Bell considered such a rifle a "buffalo rifle".



This is interesting. Does anyone know if he was using the 6.5 to shoot any cape buffalo he felt like shooting, or was he intentionally selecting younger/smaller animals for better tasting meat?

Richard

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