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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific
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Mike_Bailey
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: gryphon]
      #189320 - 06/09/11 09:58 PM

Kamilaroi, you donīt do things by half over there do you, all your bloody snakes and spiders are in the nasty category, which is the aggresive species you mention ? Personally I love snakes in normal circumstances as does my son, (he wants an emerald tree boa at the moment which I am trying to talk him out of as I donīt want to buy the tank etc etc) but a funny thing happened here a couple of years ago, there are a lot of "chiringuitos" on the beach (small wooden bars with thatched rooves) which open in June and close end of September. We were in one a while back and I went for a stroll while the kids were having an ice cream, in a load of scrub on a dune over a rabbit warren I saw the back end of a BIG python going down a rabbit hole, I tried to grab the end of it but missed but this was a big snake, girth must have been 8" plus, never saw itsīhead or front, how did it get here ?? escaped pet ? Iīll never know, best, Mike

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303British
.224 member


Reged: 20/12/10
Posts: 24
Loc: Katherine, NT Australia
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #189321 - 06/09/11 10:16 PM

I saw a Sombre Whip snake while walking the other day, asked the local snake guru about them. Pretty rare he only sees about 2 a year. Nice little fella happy to cruise around while I snapped him. Also saw a Keelback that day. I like snakes, fascinating creatures. Will be breeding Childrens Pythons as of next year. Cute little buggers.

--------------------
Arte et Marte

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: 303British]
      #189337 - 07/09/11 07:00 AM

Mike,

The species is the Western Brown or Fierce snake. It grows to abt 3 metres and attacks without provocation. As it can do abt 20KMH over rough ground then it's prudent to keep well clear. Range is western plains, channel country (irregular creeks) and savannah grasslands over abt 1/12 of the continent. A similar species the Taipan (Tai Pan?) grows to abt 4 metres but isn't as aggressive but the range is from rainforest to plains and grasslands over abt 1/6 of the north.

The family Elapidae here are number abt 70 are the most numerous and all poisonous, though most are mildly so.

We usually don't get too worried abt the dangers, but prudent behaviour is the norm. Thus a solution is that any brownish species longer than 2 feet is a risk (excepting pythons which are easily identified). I reckon that sea creatures pose a bigger risk. Google "Irukandji" for a guide.

303, I don't know of a Sombre WS but only the common yellow eyed species around s/e Oz. I do believe that at least one species is rated as dangerous to deadly.



Edited by kamilaroi (07/09/11 07:26 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189414 - 08/09/11 12:29 PM

Quote:

For others I was quoting what the law is in these parts. (Oz)



K,

Incorrect. Especially as Australia is made up of a significant number of states and jurisdictions. What Erik described would be 100% legal in most parts of Australia ie removing or killing states that threaten persons, children, pets or livestock. A snake in the garden would represent such a threat. And as for catching them and moving them elsewhere, most people are bitten trying to catch snakes, the others that get too close to them without knowing.

Quote:

The maxim remains that snakes here with a single exception are not agressive (even though most of ours range from deadly to mildly poisonous) and having been a collector/observer all my life I can speak with some authority.



I'm interested, which snake species is the aggressive one per your comment above? (edited: see you answered in a later post. Don't know the Western Brown, only our local Common (Eastern) Brown snakes.

Most species are aggressive starting right now, in Spring as well. From my experience anyway. I'm starting to listen for the sssss and slither in the grass and leaves, starting from yesterday.


Quote:

Can you post a few pics of some of your collection?



Some talk the talk, and others post photos starting interesting discussion .... Even those so environmentally in touch with themselves, hey Gryph?

Thanks for the photos, JG.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (08/09/11 12:31 PM)

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189415 - 08/09/11 12:36 PM

'Western Brown or fierce snake' + 'attacks without provocation' I think you need to check your facts mate!!!

even Wikipedia could help you with some basic facts like distribution and temperament of the snake you are talking about....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inland_Taipan

for a snake collector you dont seem to know much about them???!!!


As for snakes in a houseyard, especially given the difficulties in accurately identifying Aust elapid snakes, I reckon you have a good case to kill them and this is backed-up by law. Of course there are safety issues involved where the human can easily become the victim!!

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189432 - 08/09/11 03:51 PM

Fellas,

I just lost a 200 word reply using source documents Cogger's "Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia" (1986 edition) plus Shine and Covacevich's field guide with LD50 and world ranking for venom type and other obs. I added additional species distribution/ranges and species overlaps and congeneric between the Fierce snake and Taipan (Parademansia and Oxyuranus spp) plus field obs over the years.

Hal (Harry) Cogger I have known since 62 when I started collecting, Covacevich I have met.

Get a copy of the ADA journal where I posted my pics. Read the relevant books and get back to me eh?

Life is too short to waste it.

BTW Wiki isn't a reliable "source".

meh.

Edited by kamilaroi (08/09/11 07:07 PM)

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Matt_Graham
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189434 - 08/09/11 05:56 PM

like I said EVEN Wiki is more accurate than what you wrote earlier!!!!!!!

I always figured that a 'western brown' was otherwise known as a Gwardar and a fierce snake was otherwise known as inland taipan... but hey, maybe Im wrong??


Nice pics by the way JG...

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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Perry
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/10
Posts: 73
Loc: Qld Australia
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189437 - 08/09/11 07:48 PM

Very Cool photo's Grypon, better man than I Gungadin !! Way too close !!

As a 15 year old Easter 1979 while Bowhunting in Far Sth West Queensland I stood on an Inland Taipan, It struck me but thankfully due too a set of heavy Army Fatigue trousers, those Calf length Canvas ex Military boots you could buy back in the late 70's, more than a measure of luck and young reflexes I wasn't invenomated

My Hunting mate reckons I leapt backwards over a 2 foot tall Saltbush, drew and shot my Bow all in one motion, pinning it's head to the ground. One Fang penetrated my Fatigues and struck 1/2" below the top of the Boot I was wearing. There was a drop of Venom on my Boot and a smear on the outside of my Fatigues

We had been walking for 5 hours - If things had of gone differently I would have died as there is no way my mate could have got back to the vehicle, raised help and come back for me in time.

Best part of that trip was I shot my first Pig.



I always thought the Inland Taipan was calm compared to it's Coastal Cousin. Either way I have some Horror stories about run in's with Eastern Brown Snakes while Hunting - they scare me !!

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189439 - 08/09/11 08:02 PM

OK I take the bait.

To answer these in turn.

The Fierce snake is well named. I have several accounts of pursuit from folk around Tiboburra and Cunnamulla (Kunjamulla). Several folk (Cogger et al)consider that it as a recently classsified genus and species (Parademensia microlepidopa) and congeneric with the Taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus). Incidentally their ranges overlap. There are other species that approximate their appearance thus ID is difficult.

There are several species, namely the above, the Taipan, Fierce snake, Eastern brown, Mulga snake whose generic colour and size lead to misidentification.

The behaviour of some varies according to season and FWIW I have had eastern browns transit a campsite without displaying aggro. Most species are not specifically territorial though some exhibit such at mating.

I do not collect since abt 1968 as my locstat states I live in a high density suburb. I am called to relocate from time to time and as the NSW regs are a pain I have relinquished my collection some years back. FWIW the regs here and IMO are consistent across all State jurisdictions.

John,

iN youR area there are at least 3 species known as "brown snakes" thay are all large and dangerous.

They (and others)are:

Mulga (King Brown)snake;Pseudechis australis
Western Brown snake (Gwardar): Pseudonaja nuchalis
Eastern Brown snake; Pseudonaja textilis
Myall?Curl snake; Suta suta

and maybe a Dugite; Pseudonaja affinis (though this is uncertain)

LET'S FACE IT WE ALL HAVE DISCRETE KNOWLEDGE ON NATURE THAT IS BEST SHARED.

Edited by kamilaroi (08/09/11 08:50 PM)

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189440 - 08/09/11 08:06 PM

Why thank you Matty.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: gryphon]
      #189441 - 08/09/11 08:25 PM

FWIW Oz snakes have much smaller fang length than foreign species, thus the chance of envenomation through clothing is much reduced. If the snake has fed recently then the chance is even further reduced.

Sometimes species strike with a closed mouth as a warning, esp Red Belly Blacks.

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189443 - 08/09/11 08:45 PM

Quote:

OK I take the bait.

To answer these in turn.

The Fierce snake is well named. I have several accounts of pursuit form folk around Tiboburra and Cunnamulla (Kunjamulla). Several folk (Cogger et al)consider that it as a recently classsified genus and species (Parademensia microlepidopa) and congeneric with the Taipan (Oxyuranus scutellatus). Incidentally their ranges overlap. There are other species that approximate their appearance thus ID is difficult.

There are several species, namely the above, the Taipan, Fierce snake, Eastern brown, Mulga snake whose generic colour and size lead to misidentification.

The behaviour of some varies according to season and FWIW I have had eastern browns transit a campsite without displaying aggro. Most species are not specifically territorial though some exhibit such at mating.

I do not collect since abt 1968 as my locstat states I live in a high density suburb. I am called to relocate from time to time and as the NSW regs are a pain I have relinquished my collection some years back. FWIW the regs here and IMO are consistent across all State jurisdictions.



perhaps you should update your reading???

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189445 - 08/09/11 08:59 PM

So what might you suggest?

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #189450 - 08/09/11 09:50 PM

Mike,

In your part of it probably an escaped "pet" and how I'd imagine it may have dealt with Quaddafi.

Anyway around here the record stands at abt 26 feet for an Amethystine Python. I have collected some to abt 13feet though the circumstances were "problematic". (to say the least)

Best

Rick

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Matt_Graham
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189501 - 09/09/11 09:48 AM

Quote:

So what might you suggest?

well anything with the correct nomenclature and descriptions!!!!

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189521 - 09/09/11 03:27 PM

Really? As a recent edition of Cogger is going for $490 what might you suggest. (Yes I know genetic taxonomy has reclassified many species)

Edited by kamilaroi (09/09/11 03:38 PM)

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Perry
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Reged: 09/11/10
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189524 - 09/09/11 05:08 PM

Mulga's are the most common Snake on a block I hunt out towards Cunnamulla and they seem to mind there own Business and keep out of the way but the Eastern Browns are shockers. They Ark up just about every time we happen upon them and they stay Puffed Up with there Neck flattened out and head and 1/4 to 1/3 of there body raised 18" to 2 foot off the ground as you back off. Often the mongrel things follow just to make sure your suitably evacuated.

Another property closer to St George is lousy with Eastern Browns and again Nasty bastards of things. I am sure that property also has Coastal Taipans despite being 500+km Inland. Only found the one mating pair and it was fascinating to watch. This would seem to support the fact that Fierce Snakes and Coastal Taipans ranges overlap. It is commonly reported that the Fierce Snakes are not found east of Windorah. I've seen them on Properties as far East as the Mitchell Rd just outside of St George

More learned folks out there may be able to confirm that Mulga Snakes have only been classified in the last 10 years or so ??

I have only seen Tiger Snakes a bit further South in the Dirranbandi / Hebel district and at least on that Property had gorgeous Fawn and Dark Brown markings, all seemed to be 5 - 8 feet long and quite thick set.

I am positive I heard a Scietist say in a Radio Interview that what's commonly called the King Brown is actually not a Brown Snake but is related to the Red Belly Black and that the King Brown name is a misnomer.

I also sure he said the Mulga is related to Eastern Browns. The Scientist said that the Mulga has more toxic venom than the Eastern Brown. I'm sure he also said the King Brown is not as as Toxic as the Mulga

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Perry]
      #189526 - 09/09/11 06:13 PM

Mulga snake is the same as 'King Brown' mate. Eastern brown is more venomous (toxic) as I understand it.

--------------------
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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #189527 - 09/09/11 06:24 PM

I always thought a "KB" was just another common name for the EBS! Most of us will just say "geezus that brown was close" etc as in a description.
I call this a brown snake otherwise known as " you bastard!"

It was in my paddock.




[IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/gryphone/brownman1.jpg [/IMG]

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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Perry
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Reged: 09/11/10
Posts: 73
Loc: Qld Australia
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: gryphon]
      #189528 - 09/09/11 08:09 PM

Well at least I got the related to Black Snakes bit right

I just did a bit of research and discovered that what I've been calling a Mulga Snake for a couple of decades is in fact a Collet Snake. Years and years ago a property owner and a hunting mate who worked for the same Cocky told me they where Mulga Snake's. Either way it's still No 19 on the worlds most deadly list and I'll continue to give them a wide berth.



I wonder if a lot of the confision about the place is due to differing local names for the same Snake. Always a good day when you learn something new

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: Perry]
      #189529 - 09/09/11 08:30 PM

Quote:

Well at least I got the related to Black Snakes bit right

I just did a bit of research and discovered that what I've been calling a Mulga Snake for a couple of decades is in fact a Collet Snake. Years and years ago a property owner and a hunting mate who worked for the same Cocky told me they where Mulga Snake's. Either way it's still No 19 on the worlds most deadly list and I'll continue to give them a wide berth.

I wonder if a lot of the confision about the place is due to differing local names for the same Snake. Always a good day when you learn something new

regards Jacko



Yes, I agree their is a lot of confusion, especially localised and you mentioned the key word - COCKY.

Cocky's seem to have their own words for things that come from way back when and it gets passed down like it was to you.


i just work on back away and leave undisturbed if possible or kill it if not, regardless.

.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39474
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #189531 - 09/09/11 08:51 PM

I've encountered Red bellied black snakes occasionally. They are actually beneficial as they kill other snakes or their young/eggs or whatever. USUALLY they are not that aggressive unless stepped on etc.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: NitroX]
      #189546 - 09/09/11 11:07 PM

And this is a GREAT thread! I hope the O/S mob get some idea of the diversity of what we deal with on a regular basis.

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #189592 - 10/09/11 06:36 PM



--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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9.3x57
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Re: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! [Re: gryphon]
      #189596 - 10/09/11 07:55 PM

Gryph, seriously, great pix and thanks for posting a great thread.

Oh, and I'd love to have your camera setup, too.

I always wanted a camera attached to a rail on my shotgun...



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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