| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 01/01/19 06:02 AM |
Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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I recently acquired a second wartime production Brno full stock sporter. Condition of the two rifles is excellent, making me wonder where they have spent their lives and how they got to the USA.
One was produced in 1941 and one in 1942. They are only 611 guns apart so I assume the first one was late 1941 production and the second one early in 1942. The side rails are marked differently with two lines on the earlier rifle.
And only one line on the 1942 gun.
Post war Brnos were marked thus:
I do not understand the differnce in the proof codes stamped on the rifles. The 1941 gun seems to indicate it was the 20951 rifle proofed in 1941 - an impressive number of sporting arms for wartime I would think. Neither rifle has a Nazi eagle on it. The proof stamp is on the side of the barrel and the side of the reciever - both above the wood line.
The 1942 rifle has the proof stamp on the bottom of the barrel in a different format. Anyone know what it means?
Post war production roundtop rifles also do not have the guide rib on the bolt and have a simpler checkering pattern on the forearm. Top rifle is post war production.
The last of the roundtop rifles also dispensed with the clip charger guide. Rifle on the right is toward the end of roundtop production before the 1949 changes. When they put double square bridges on the receivers, they also returned to the guide rib on the bolt.
I am very interested in all things Brno. No books seem to exist on these great arms. Any information you can provide is very much appreciated.
Thanks.
John
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/01/19 07:55 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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So nice!
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 01/01/19 08:15 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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They look brand new.
The GI that "liberated" those must have been a real gun guy but no shooter. He knew a nice thing when he saw it but never popped a cap!
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/01/19 08:32 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Quote:
They look brand new.
The GI that "liberated" those must have been a real gun guy but no shooter. He knew a nice thing when he saw it but never popped a cap!
Not wrong there.....pristine certainly springs to mind!
Wonderful pickup to say the least.
My 2 cents worth - please leave as is.....rare birds to say the least!
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/19 08:04 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Wartime production under German occupation had somewhat erratic markings.
Another type of markings.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/01/19 08:45 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Justcurious, can you provide the year and approximate serial number of your rifle in the photo.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/19 09:32 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Here another item with that markings.
It is dated 1942
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 02/01/19 01:47 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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So wait...
Can somebody help me out here?
I thought the Brno commercial actions were post-war mods. Here we see a small-ring action in commercial garb.
Were these actions mil G33/40 "mountain rifle" actions dressed up in commercial duds? Thus the foundation for the subsequent 21 Brnos?
I'm confuzzled here.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/01/19 04:39 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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These are small ring actions and very commercial sporting arms. The 1941 rifle is in the 16XX serial number range. They may have come off the same production line as the G33/40; however, they are not profiled on the left rail the same as the VZ33 and G33/40 as the left side is straight like most small ring actions. I assumed these rifles were still produced in very limited numbers for Nazi officials; however it appears they made them in larger numbers than I originally thought.
These arms are Model 21/22 guns as the serial number sequence continued when post war production resumed. The only change I see was discontinuing the bolt guide rib after the war.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/19 09:54 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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The BRNO M21/22 smallring actions are pure commercial develeopments, though the Czech had a consequent line in producing the smallring actions for military purposes.
Peruvian 1932 (identical to VZ33 except the typical Peruvian charger hump). BTW the Safety in this picture is from a postwar M21.
Wartime (1941) commercial 21
The wartime productions had a much better bottom metal.Solid steel box . The double set trigger mechanism identical to the later production times.Little different shaping ( rounded) of the trigger bow guard.
Not the cheap stamped and welded magazinze boxes found on the postwar production.
Sorry for my butchering the BRNO parts.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/19 09:59 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Establishing the BRNO commercial production line started with large ring actions as can be seen in the item dated 1938.
Showing most features found on the later smallring line.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 03/01/19 12:35 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Justcurious,
I very much appreciate your posts and information. I have seen only one of the "A Model" Brno large ring pre-war Sporters that you pictured. Does your example have a wedge in the forearm? A full length photo would be wonderful!
My '41 and '42 rifles do not have the rounded trigger guard bow that you pictured. I will paste a photo of them below. Also I am reasonably sure that none of my post-war guns have a stamped magazine box - I thought that came in with the ZKK series.
Please continue to post any additional information - I very much appreciate your input.
John
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/01/19 01:29 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Quote:
The BRNO M21/22 smallring actions are pure commercial develeopments, though the Czech had a consequent line in producing the smallring actions for military purposes.
Peruvian 1932 (identical to VZ33 except the typical Peruvian charger hump). BTW the Safety in this picture is from a postwar M21.
Wartime (1941) commercial 21
The wartime productions had a much better bottom metal.Solid steel box . The double set trigger mechanism identical to the later production times.Little different shaping ( rounded) of the trigger bow guard.
Not the cheap stamped and welded magazinze boxes found on the postwar production.
Sorry for my butchering the BRNO parts.
TexasJohn and justcurius, THANK YOU for the information and pix. Very interesting! I had no idea Brno was making pure commercial actions of the type.
The box mag here is reminiscent of the late-war stamped mags with the large winter trigger guard made by Brno {pic here w/o the big trigger guard}. I had one of those military '98's many years ago in mint condition. I suspect Brno simply incorporated some of those technological developments into later commercial production?
Parenthetically, it is interesting how many stamped parts found their way into many rifles after the war, notably the Remington 722-700 series.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/01/19 03:20 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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The Large ring from 1938 has a wedge as you anticipated.
Though I beleeve the brass shield is a later ad.
But digging deep in my harddisk I found pictures of another one . Unfortunately in low resolution and not dated.
On the left sideview one can clearly see the step of the receiver ring to the sidewall.
Concerning the magbox I have to learn that war production models could have the triggerbow shape as postwar models.
But .... up to now I have yet to see one single M21/22 model with the "square bridges" prism scope mounting action that has not the stamped box.
I had a few dozen of those rifles in my hands and more than a dozend of all configuration and calibers inmy possesion - all stamped magboxes.
BTW the same magazine construction was used on the ZG47 models , though stamped box and bottom metal were not welded together.
The principal technique as used in the late production time of the K98k is similiar , though not a typical BRNO feature.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/01/19 02:38 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Justcurious,
The large ring Brno pre-war sporter that I saw here also had the brass plate around the stock wedge exactly as pictured. There would be a need to re-enforce the wood around the wedge hole, so I am thinking it was indeed a factory feature.
Your Peruvian small ring is very similar to the G33/40 except that it also lacks the profile of the left rail which actually makes it look like a large ring action:
John
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/01/19 04:11 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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And it does not have the lightening cut of the 33/40 under the stockline of the action.
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/01/19 08:22 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Some very interesting information here.
JustCurious which models came with the Mannlicher style bolt handle?
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/01/19 08:39 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Breaker,
The Mannlicher style bolt handle was standard on the Model 21/22 Series rifles. At the very end of production (1956?) the ZG-47 was in production also and some of the very last 21/22 rifles were fitted with either the round ZG-47 bolt knob (with dimple) or the ZG rotating safety or both. I have a model 22 from 1956 that has the ZG-47 trigger and bolt knob but the standard safety.
John
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/01/19 11:54 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Great discussion and doggonit, I guess I was wrong.
i thot the g33/40 was a small ring. i think i got that confuzzled with the 98A?
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/01/19 12:37 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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9.3x57,
You were absolutely correct that the G33/40 (VZ33) is a small ring Mauser action. The Czechs profiled the left action rail to mimic the large ring action. I suppose this and the lightening cuts under the wood line on the sides were supposed to shave weight from the rifle. However, the difference in stock woods used might easily replace any savings of a few ounces. They did not however decide to do this on the 21/22 series of rifles and left the left side rail full thickness - go figure?
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/01/19 02:40 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Ahhh!!!
Thanks!!
I thot that was the case but saw the step in the receiver ring and thot I'd made a blunder.
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/01/19 04:13 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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TexasJohn, thanks for the info. Call me nuts but I prefer the Mannlicher style bolt handles over the ball/round type.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/01/19 03:13 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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it is the fate of all collectors ,that here is always something totally unexpected.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/04/20 03:17 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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I am resurrecting this thread due to a WWII Mauser that I saw for sale. I do not know that the bottom metal of this Waffenwerke Brunn wartime Mauser matches the action; however, I think that it likely does. It has the late war type "winter trigger guard". I am not a military collector and have not studied the WWII Mausers. I am a avid commercial Brno collector. Since this military trigger guard looks much like the post war Brno sporter guards in that it has a two piece magazine box, I was curious if anyone knows if this late war modification was started by the Czechs and then used on the postwar Model 21/22 series of rifles? Any information is appreciated. Also note that it lacks the locking screws on the bottom metal.
| justcurious |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/04/20 08:13 PM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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To my knowledge this is a strictly military proposition, not started by the czech.
This type started with locking screws and later they were produced without the locking screws, due to simplification of production.
I don´t know any M21/22 model postwar rifle with that type of magazine box.
| themauserkid |
| (.275 member) |
| 23/07/20 01:49 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Correct, that is a late 1944 action and the Czechs never produced the stamped trigger guards during the war, that is a subcontracted piece used in their production. The “winter trigger guards” are actually a different profile than that one, this one simply has damage altering the shape. The so called winter guards were designed by the Germans but never produced beyond prototypes during the war. After the war and the subsequent complete usage of left over wartime parts they began production of this simplified winter guard for their rifles.
Beautiful rifles by the way, I have yet to find a wartime one! The reason for the initial postwar lack of the guide rib is undoubtedly a utilization of 1945 production bolts in which the guide rib was omitted from the bolt as a production simplification.
| TexasJohn |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/07/20 09:41 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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Ahh, now that makes sense about the lack of the guide rib on the bolt. Not being that well versed on the military Mauser production, I was unaware of this late war change. Now I understand what happened and why it was omitted in the post-war guns and then added again in the '49 production.
Thanks for this bit of information.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 26/07/20 02:41 AM |
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Re: Brno Vrs Waffenwerke Brunn - Classic Sporters
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the stamped magazine/trigger guard looks allways a little bit crude but funktion none the less fine. I had such a thing when working on a short "Nachsuchenbüchse" a short handy rifle for follow wounded game and was surprised how good it was in the end.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=312428&an=0&page=5#Post312428