lancaster
(.470 member)
16/10/12 05:48 AM
french connection

to let the cat out of the bag ...
I bought a rifle

this time a Mas 36 in 10,75x68, here are the pics from the e-auction

























serial number is 1940 but I am not sure that 1940 rifles at least were ever made in 10,75x68. this hunting rifle was also made in 8x60S and a 7mm wildcat so its possible that most of the 1940 were smallbore's.
maybe not the best rifle but it was offered and I dont know if seeing a better again.
you may notice that the rifle have some small problem's: small chip on the forearm, the buttstock was made new some time possible because the old one was brocken, colour of the buttstock is not right and need a checkering, the rifle miss the safety lever

the safety lever was the biggest thing in my eye's but I learned that this part is available because its used in the FR F1 sniper rifle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FR_F1






some work for the next year


Igorrock
(.400 member)
16/10/12 06:16 AM
Re: french connection

Very nice find ! Those stock parts are IMO the easiest part to renovate or even change if needed. In my eyes your rifle need new bluing too.

Viking338
(.333 member)
16/10/12 11:34 AM
Re: french connection

I would love to find one in Australia but i have never seen one. I am sure you will get much joy from it.

Sville
(.400 member)
16/10/12 06:35 PM
Re: french connection

Different concept. Never seen one of those. Interesting.

DarylS
(.700 member)
17/10/12 04:00 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Different concept. Never seen one of those. Interesting.




Certainly is strange, along with the rear-locking bolt. Nice to see two lugs, though.

The bore might clean up nicely with some scrubbing.


lancaster
(.470 member)
17/10/12 05:31 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Different concept. Never seen one of those. Interesting.




WHAT? I am working hard here and you dont notice this
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=107184&an=0&page=0#Post107184

yes, think I will get everything back to the old glory but saying "glory" well this is a working gun as it can be. the woodwork would be the easiest part, new rust blueing of course and a little luck to find a safety lever.
and we will study the rifle together...





vive la 10,75x68



dirtyjim
(.224 member)
19/10/12 08:53 AM
Re: french connection

there are four pictures of mine in lancaster other thread in post #11.
got it off gunbroker 4 or 5 years ago.

check under the forearm, it will have the year it was built on the barrel shank and possibly a spare front sight insert


lancaster
(.470 member)
20/10/12 05:04 AM
Re: french connection

you have a very nice one



wish mine come close to this when I am ready. bad news is that the seller told me his local bureaucracy would need up to 3 month's for the export licence so I would not get the rifle into my hands before 2013.
dirtyjim, could you make pics from everything you find on the rifle? which year was your rifle made?
and one question that interest me the most: do you shoot your rifle and have the feeling the muzzle brack actually works?


dirtyjim
(.224 member)
20/10/12 07:58 AM
Re: french connection

i put quite a few rounds through it and i think the brake works quite well. it weighs right at 8 pounds and as long as your not on a bench recoil is very mild for a big bore without a pad.
here are a few more pics, if there is any specific parts you would like pictures of let me know & i'll take them.
i think you'll realy like the rifle once you get it. they stand out.

barrel date


caliber markings on top of barrel and closeup of the rear sight


inside of forearm and spare front sight insert. it comes with both a bead and a sourdough


closeup of the brade/front sight


closeup of the receiver markings




lancaster
(.470 member)
20/10/12 02:54 PM
Re: french connection

thank you very much, where are the proof marks on the rifle?

your rile is No.1866 made in 1950 that dated mine with No. 1940 at least behind this. we will see when it was made and this will give us a little impression about the amount of production.

this was the first rifle I have seen



an american soldier bought this in Vietnam from an old french master. looks like there is no serial number.


this 8x60Magunm looks like No.692 supporting my theory that all rifles in 3 different caliber forming a series



this 7x54 have no serial number in the left side




I believe that most of the 10,75 Mas are still in the hand of french ex colonial's in africa. one guy on gunboards told he have meet a french in 2006 in Ivory coast who had two of them.


grandveneur
(.400 member)
20/10/12 09:51 PM
Re: french connection

We loose our colonies there are 50 years ! In the last years i have never seen in West-Africa a 10,75x68 MAS but few Mauser hunting rifles caliber 10,75x68 . The local hunters in Burkina Faso know this cartridge , but the problem is to get ammunition in this countries .

May note in passing , Ivory Coast is today a very bad place for the white people .


lancaster
(.470 member)
21/10/12 04:45 AM
Re: french connection

yes I know what you mean grandveneur, its a question of age sometimes. but I see it a little bit more generously so for example every french in Burkina Faso is an ex colonial( in fact he is). he is more special than other strangers and is in a community with his fellow countryman and deal with them.

thats what moblotaire wrote
"When I was deployed in Ivory Coast (2006) I met a french citizen living in the Northern part of the country. He had two such rifles. Yet it was impossible for him to cross the "border" between the North and South (a kind of civil war was taking place at that time) with a weapon. And if ever I had been able to buy one (or the two of them) , customs paperwork would have been a nightmare. Corruption in the country and french paperwork "red tape

No I didn't take any picture of the rifles.
At that time I was deployed in Abidjan (capital city near the sea) and the guy was just passing by at the French camp."

in the end the 10,75mm Mas is very rare


lancaster
(.470 member)
23/12/12 11:57 PM
Re: french connection

if you believe in coincidense the 8x60S Mas 36 No .682 was coming back in an auction and thanks to Igorrock I was able to get into my hands. its a so called "Deko" wallhanger that was drilled and welded in 2009 for whatever reasons. good for me because I will butcher it to get another orignal stock and the missing safety lever for my old 10,75x68. still waiting for the french export licence





the missing part


the cut down bolt with a 8x60 stamp



drilled and welded






No 682 made in 1947



8x60 Magnum on the barrel allmost vanished under the thick black coating



the action is surprisingly small and you dont believe that the 10,75x68 will fit into but it does very well


side by side with a M 98 in 10,75x57 you maybe get an imagination how handy the rifle is because its so small in thickness



grandveneur
(.400 member)
24/12/12 12:42 AM
Re: french connection

I am impressed that you like this rifles ! LA NATION VOUS EST RECONNAISSANTE ! I had one by the military basic training . I prefer the US M 14 !

lancaster
(.470 member)
24/12/12 01:00 AM
Re: french connection

yes, like it very much
its my mission to find the rare things! only a Mannlicher Schönauer M 1910 and I have all bolt action I was looking for


Ash
(.400 member)
25/12/12 12:30 AM
Re: french connection

Problem with M-36's (military ones at least, not sure of these sporters) when I was using them was reloading from the shoulder, just about punch yourself in the nose each time cycling the bolt! French must have been shorties back then =D

Nice rifles guys, M-36 in 10.75x68 is on my want list..


lancaster
(.470 member)
23/11/13 03:22 AM
Re: french connection

now rechambered to 284 Winchester this was once a 7x57 mauser and like the version in 7x54 Mas its without a muzzle brake


















http://www.naturabuy.fr/1-Fusil-284-w-ba...em-1345451.html


Igorrock
(.400 member)
23/11/13 05:20 AM
Re: french connection

Nice rifle. Do you have any idea which kind of scope mounts they used to have on these MAS rifles ?

lancaster
(.470 member)
23/11/13 07:15 PM
Re: french connection

there is one of this typical post war military side mounts, clumsy and rugged

lancaster
(.470 member)
09/12/13 07:00 AM
Re: french connection

now when the 2013 ends it comes clear that this deal never happen. while waiting for the export licence I lost contact to the seller.
meanwhile I have solve the question which ammo the rifle was made for. what we know is that the 10,75 Mas was build in 1950 probably earlier. the only ammo brand available in theory was than kynoch but I dont now when kynoch start to make this caliber again after ww2. one source says big bore ammo was rare many years after WW 2 at least outside of the empire. DWM and RWS ammo was not available before 1955 but nobody expected to see german made ammo ever again in 1950! so there was also czechoslowak made ammo but Sellier&Bellot and Považská Bystrica by Sellier&Bellot told me this caliber was available from 1957 to 1965. I dont have informations about Považská Bystrica only the ammo box come up from time to time.


post war DWM


RWS, Kynoch and Sellier&Bellot



Považská Bystrica


than I found a pic of a french ammo box, 10,75x68 on Mauser 98 clips




dont know who L.D.&Cie was, the box could be post WW2
looks clearly like a gunmaker box but you can see "chargees en france" what I would translate as loaded in france.
very possible the ammo there is in fact this:








this ammo was made after WW 2 in the french military arsenal in Toulouse. its an old trace for me because I found this before in a french cartridge collector manual







a experimental anti tank cartrige for a cone bore rifle after Gerlich made between 1950 and 1952. obviously someone in this arsenal use his postion for leting made a lot of 10,75x68 sporting ammunition, maybe a fanatical big game hunter




no doubt that this was the ammo this special rifle was build for.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
09/12/13 03:30 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

now when the 2013 ends it comes clear that this deal never happen. while waiting for the export licence I lost contact to the seller.


That´s a pity! Maybe you have to buy one military version and build your own using parts from yours deko-rifle....

lancaster
(.470 member)
09/12/13 04:01 PM
Re: french connection

dont laugh, readyness is all

the deactivated 8x60S is now in reserve and I have ordered the missing bolt parts. a lothar walther .404 blank ( walther dont make 10,75x68 barrel blanks anymore and the proof house accept the 404 jeffery barrel)stand on the work bench of my gunmaker. the only realy difference would be the rear sight but the rest will be more or less the same. problem for me is to change the caliber designation on the receiver.



steal is very thin there and to grind it out will not look good in the end.
so "8x60" have to be filled somehow and 10,75x68 can be engraved than. this are the kind of problem I have to deal with.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
09/12/13 06:53 PM
Re: french connection

Just make a correct size sign from 1 mm steel sheet and silver solder it to the place. If you are very carefull and round it´s bevels and edges right, nobody but youself will notice it.

lancaster
(.470 member)
10/12/13 03:28 AM
Re: french connection

thank god this would be my biggest problem
the 10,75 is a very natural conversion to this rifle.you can see on the pics how well the 10.75x68 fits into the original magazine.


side by side with a mauser 98 clip










the 10,75 was made by six ammo firm's in four country's in the 1950s. it was the real workhorse and I dont think another bigbore cartridge had have such a wide distribution in this time.


lancaster
(.470 member)
13/12/13 06:37 AM
Re: french connection

another ex 7x54 or 7x57 rechambering to 284 win
its the rifle No.837, notice the original caliber detail on the rifle was carefully changed to 284 Win. the other mas in 284 Win I have linked above with the number 157 still have the "7x57" on the left side of the magazin.

















http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-FOURNIER-CAL-284W-item-1618117.html


lancaster
(.470 member)
12/01/14 09:36 PM
Re: french connection

again a Mas 36 made in 7x57 now a 284 Win
serial number 295 http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-Sterna-item-1673091.html
dont know what "Sterna" means, see it the first time probably the gunmaker who rechamber the rifle.











will try to investigate the year this rifle was build. its possible that all 7x57 mauser sporting rifles were made for the colony's were the gun law forbidding military cartridges for sporting rifles were not in use. when bring this rifles back someone change them to the similar but civilian .284 Winchester.

a nice box of the suspected 10,75x68 for sale but for 90 euro's no bargain









lancaster
(.470 member)
13/01/14 03:25 PM
Re: french connection

Larcher asking the seller of the last rifle here for the year under the barrel and it is "Mas 1951"
with No.682 made in 1947 and No. 1866 made in 1950 the No.295 made in 1951 dont realy help to come closer to the question when No. 1 was made.
obviously they use an old action in stock or rebarrel sometimes this riffle so it dont help me anything.


lancaster
(.470 member)
27/01/14 05:47 PM
Re: french connection

another pic with a Mas 36 sporter come to surface
now in cambodia
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=241296&page=0&vc=1#Post241296

with a Kouprey two raritys side by side. it looks like there is the typical muzzle brake on the rifle but's not clear enough.

a 10,75x68 seems logical



lancaster
(.470 member)
28/01/14 06:38 PM
Re: french connection

and here the is muzzle brake very clear to see



lancaster
(.470 member)
03/02/14 08:55 PM
Re: french connection

pics of a 10,75x68 I found by accident
the rifle was sold in france in 7/2011, serial number is 430
the lowest number I have seen



















this 10,75 have the number 1303, sold in 4/2012





















another rifle sold in france in 10/2012, serial number is 1465

















lancaster
(.470 member)
17/02/14 09:49 PM
Re: french connection

8x60S No. 136 , "1947" under the barrel





http://www.tircollection.com/t2152-mas-fournier-1075x68


lancaster
(.470 member)
21/02/14 01:38 AM
Re: french connection

many thanks to larcher who help me to aquire the ATE ammo box
I WILL NOT FORGET THIS

so now I can answer the question I had when seeing this rifle the first time in my life: what ammo was it made for?

the 10,75 ATE on Mas 36 clip



headstamp is ATE 10,75x68


when open the box I had the biggest surprise, what was looking as full metall jacket on pics is in fact a hollow point bullet



ATE hollow point, DWM flat point and Kynoch round nose



20 years ago now I talked with the ex chief-ballistician of the Spreewerke Lübben, an east german cold war military ammo arsenal making mainly 7,62x39. He told me they had to made some lots of 7,62 hunting ammo in the 80s but with their highly specialised tools and machines it was not possible to made softpoint bullets. they could make full metall jackets of all kinds with this but softpoints were not possible. so they did the same like MWK another east german arsenal when making 8x57 IS/IRS hunting ammo. they close the jacket over the bullet base much as possible and turn the tip of the jacket on a lathe. something that work very well with the machinery. so I understand the remarkable bullet design of this softpoints.
ATE was a similar military arsenal and had probably the same problem when making the 10,75x68. they could not make softpoint bullets but full metall jackets and hollow points by drilling the FMJ.
looks suitable for big cats what was maybe the biggest problem for game and forrest departments after the long years of WW 2 when the big cats could breed in peace.

10,75 ATE hollow point and MWK 8x57IS soft point
notice the cut of jacket of the 8x57


think I need now a box of DWM, RWS, S&B and PS also
damned collecting, you will never finish


lancaster
(.470 member)
27/08/14 01:16 AM
Re: french connection

French Congo in 1951




the woman and the man on the right side have the Mas rifle in 10,75





must be brand new than





Igorrock
(.400 member)
27/08/14 02:33 PM
Re: french connection

I just have to ask yours opinion, lancaster;

Is MAS 36 military model well worth of making a custom rifle ? They seems to be quite rare here in Finland, I know just one for sale with 650€ which IMO is quite much. But seems that in Sweden they are much cheaper.


lancaster
(.470 member)
28/08/14 05:06 AM
Re: french connection

its funny that you ask this just now when unbelievable things standing before my door ...
wish me luck, only 21 hours

650 euro is to much, only if you collect service rifles and have an untouched special piece

they are going for 200 -300 euro
what do you have in mind for a custom project? it depends on
this action have some features I like and handle very fine.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
28/08/14 06:04 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

what do you have in mind for a custom project?


Nothing just now because my 8x57 IS Mauser project seems to come ready before christmas. But in some day it would be nice to make one light and handy rifle to MAS 36 action. Caliber could be 7x57 or 6,5x55....

kuduae
(.400 member)
28/08/14 07:51 AM
Re: french connection

[Quote]But in some day it would be nice to make one light and handy rifle to MAS 36 action. Caliber could be 7x57 or 6,5x55....



Light rifle on a M 1936 MAS action? According to Frank de Haas,"Bolt Action Rifles", the MAS action weights 51 oz = 1446 gramm, while the standard Mauser 98k large ring action is 45 oz = 1276 g. A small ring Mauser 98AZ action would be even lighter. It will be difficult to build a light rifle starting with an action being 6 oz = 170g heavier.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
28/08/14 02:11 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

the MAS action weights 51 oz = 1446 gramm, while the standard Mauser 98k large ring action is 45 oz = 1276 g.


OK, thanks for yours note, kuduae. Haven´t ever handled any MAS 36.

So, according that weight it would be more sensible to build something "heavier" to MAS 36 action....


lancaster
(.470 member)
29/08/14 04:17 AM
Re: french connection

well, my Mas 36 in 8x60 weights 3250 gramm, the M 98 in 9,3x64 weights 3450 gramm

if you could have only one rifle it have to be a Mauser but if you looking for just another rifle, if you are willing to make mistakes and learn ... why not.
the sporting rifle handle fine, ergonomic in a special way without looking like the rifle your orthopedist recommend you


because I am very impatient I have make plans for months now about the deactivated 8x60 mas 36. my gunmaker have a lothar walther 404 Jef. ( 10,75x73) barrel blank on stock for me for another project and I thought about this for making a new barrel for the mas.
it seems this will not happen

would you believe there could be a 10,75x68 barrel for the mas 36 still in the white laying around for 64 years now and waiting for me.
I would not think this could be a real possibility but if this would happen one day it must be karma











got it
play the lottery next time


Igorrock
(.400 member)
29/08/14 04:53 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

well, my Mas 36 in 8x60 weights 3250 gramm, the M 98 in 9,3x64 weights 3450 gramm


OK, my 9,3x64 Husqvarna seems to be a tad heavier; it weights now (without any mounts or scope) 3650 gramm. It´s stock wood is very dense and heavy.

But it would be very interesting to see how much yours 10,75x68 MAS will weight when it´s ready...


lancaster
(.470 member)
06/09/14 09:36 PM
Re: french connection

it was clear this would happen, when I still waiting for the parts there would be another rifle for sale

http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-GRANDE-CHASSE-calibre-10-75x68-cartouches-item-2114624.html









number is 636


Igorrock
(.400 member)
06/09/14 10:10 PM
Re: french connection

The price seems to be quite acceptable so maybe you buy the whole one and then sell those parts to someone other person who want to build his own 10,75x68 MAS....

Ash
(.400 member)
06/09/14 10:27 PM
Re: french connection

Am looking into Australias import laws as we speak

lancaster
(.470 member)
06/09/14 11:36 PM
Re: french connection

1091 aussie dollar

maybe you ask our member Dorlac http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/ for parking the rifle as a first step

he may know someone who does export or makes this work for you also. today you need some kind of "agent" in the special country of interest if dealing with guns.


Ash
(.400 member)
07/09/14 08:55 AM
Re: french connection

Lancaster - what are the odds of finding that barrel, ay!


I've started sending PM's and emails about the above one, lets see if I can get it over here!


lancaster
(.470 member)
07/09/14 07:12 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Lancaster - what are the odds of finding that barrel, ay!











very simple, you just have to observe the whole internet thing 24 hours around the day


Ash
(.400 member)
08/09/14 06:20 PM
Re: french connection

You want something, and you look, every 10 minutes, for months..but its the day you stop that one appears, and sells. Congratulations on your success though!


Larcher is assisting me with the above. You 2 have been very helpful, and i thank you muchly.


Ash
(.400 member)
08/09/14 10:30 PM
Re: french connection

Heres a minty

http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-10-75x68-item-148631.html

10.75x68, No1498







Ash
(.400 member)
08/09/14 10:43 PM
Re: french connection

It sold in the time i was registering NOOOO!!!!



lancaster
(.470 member)
09/09/14 02:40 AM
Re: french connection

wow, 1498 was realy mint
thank you for saving the pic

I am sorry to say readyness is all and you better prepare you now for the next chance that will come unexpected. you better look for a dealer who not only hold the rifle but make the export for you also.


lancaster
(.470 member)
09/09/14 02:58 AM
Re: french connection

its time now to make a little inventory with the rifles we have see

serial number 136 8x60S
295 7x57
430 10,75x68
636 10,75x68
682 8x60S
692 8x60S
1303 10,75x68
1465 10,75x68
1498 10,75x68
1866 10,75x68
1940 10,75x68

without number 10,75x68
unknown number 7x57

this are 3 rifles in 8x60S, 2 in 7x57 and 8 rifles in 10,75x68
it seems my first idea that the 10,75 caliber was the rarest variant is not true but on the contrary its the most common caliber. this model was build from 1947(maybe 1946) up to 1951 but it could be parts were made and the rifles were fitted on demand also some years after 1951.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
09/09/14 08:16 AM
Re: french connection

Isn't that "minty" rifle a mega-buffed reblue job? I thot all the sporters were dull and some painted black to-boot?

The mil rifles used to be available here for dirt cheap. I've always wanted a sporter as even the mil rifles have a good "feel" to them.

As usual, lanc, thanks for posting.


lancaster
(.470 member)
10/09/14 04:07 AM
Re: french connection

maybe you are right about reblued but anyway I am happy about every rifle here. with a little work it was possible to find some informations about a dangerous game rifle lost in times before and I hope we will find out more.

if you ever start a sporter project on a mas 36 I have the rear sight and the cool looking frontsight/muzzle break of the 8x60S barrel. you can have it when my 10,75mm barrel arrive

maybe good for a 308 winchester rifle


Ash
(.400 member)
10/09/14 06:53 AM
Re: french connection

636 is back and i've made an offer

Miracle!


lancaster
(.470 member)
11/09/14 03:29 AM
Re: french connection

the barrel comes today, still in the original cosmoline
everything goes straight to my gunmaker

strange that this barrel laying around for 64 years till I see it. it was never in an action before just waiting the lord send me to investigate this rifle in detail.


Ash
(.400 member)
11/09/14 08:33 AM
Re: french connection

Excellent! I can't wait to see build progress!

Good news on my end too. I purchased 636. Seller won't ship to Australia so a member here (Larcher) kindly offered to give her a home and deal with the export side of things. Must confess having never bought internationally I am a tad nervous, but will be relieved when it arrives at Larchers. Cheers for that mate *thumbs up*

And thanks Lancaster for alerting me to the rifle.


larcher
(.416 member)
27/09/14 06:43 PM
Re: french connection

Hi Ash

I hope that I can register this rifle on tuesday and then ship it should the admin proceed immediately. Otherwise I'd have to wait that the permit be mailed??
I am thoroughly cleaning it and oiling the stock. The blueing is to consider in the future. The upper part of the rubber buttplate is chirped.This rifle isn't rusted, but was coated in packed grease just like wax. I am keeping on cleaning it this saturday afternoon before sending you pictures of it.
kind regards
jb


Ash
(.400 member)
27/09/14 08:55 PM
Re: french connection

I owe you a debt of gratitude, kind sir!


I posted the import permit application yesterday (Friday, 26/9/14).
Do you need this scanned and emailed to you for postage?

Cheers JB, I'll buy you a night of beers when you make it back down here!


larcher
(.416 member)
28/09/14 01:46 AM
Re: french connection

Hi Ash

In fact I don't need your application, but it'll be usefull to join it to the french gun registration for a smoother transfer through Australian customs.

It's a pleasure to give a hand, you owe me nothing.

By the by, not a bad idea that I buy shares of Foster previous to land in Australia, the profit margin can cut the costs


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
28/09/14 03:14 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Heres a minty

http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-10-75x68-item-148631.html

10.75x68, No1498










That is amazing and must hurt a lot to miss out on it.

It sure would make a different rifle for Australia and also get a lot of attention.

What did you buy, ie that is getting sent to Australia?


larcher
(.416 member)
28/09/14 07:51 PM
Re: french connection

HEADSTAMPS and AMMOS with the MAS 676








Ash
(.400 member)
28/09/14 10:19 PM
Re: french connection

Interesting, wonder what the solid load is, and if i should pull it and reload myself instead of firing if its a handload?

John, here are the pictures of the one Larcher is providing enormous assistance in helping me bring over (doing the export side of things over there!)
These are pictures he kindly sent me, i must say i like his choice of background!













lancaster
(.470 member)
29/10/14 05:08 AM
Re: french connection

here is an advertisment for the Mas 36 sporting rifle in 7x54 by Jean Fournier
the 7x54 is a wildcat made by using the the 7,5x54 military round. more or less a copy of the 7x57 mauser until last year illegal in france.







http://www.tircollection.com/t6184-calibre-mas-fournier

hope to find such paper for the 10,75x68 rifle too

the rifle there looks like an original Mas made gun. maybe Fournier had bought the parts after the end of the production there. this rifle here for sale in france once dont have any checkering and no serial number on the left side.















http://www.naturabuy.fr/Mas-36-7x54-Fournier-item-556700.html

another rifle looks like it have the common serial number of the rifles made at Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne. maybe Fournier got this receiver with the serial number on it.













http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-36-FOURNIER-occasion-item-606097.html

this Fournier rifle have the typical "JF 154" serial number on the left side above. this is the common way the serial number is locaceted and looks on Fournier made rifles

























http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-FOURNIER-CALIBRE-7X54-item-381396.html

a Fournier made rifle( number "JFD 915" - giving a hint that 915 of this rifles were made at least) and a 8x60S (common serial number 136)rifle with Sterna stamp side by side







http://www.tircollection.com/t2152-mas-fournier-1075x68

Sterna was another gunmaker who made mas 36 sporting rifles probably by using parts he bought from
Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne. we have seen this stamp before on rifle number 295 and maybe also on number 837 where Sterna was the gunmaker who rechamber the illegal 7x57 into the .284 Winchester.


lancaster
(.470 member)
29/10/14 07:13 AM
Re: french connection

the more I see ...

here number 1354, typical Mas serial number but 7x54 so made by Fournier
the receicer dont have the peep sight rail on top like the 10,75x68 mm rifle have but the rear sight is completly unique.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/mas-36-fournier-item-1259752.html














found pics of the rifle number 1231 in 7x54 http://s300.photobucket.com/user/WilyB/m...lution.jpg.html, clearly to see the original MAS butt plate. so this was not some look alike and whoever did the work he had the original parts.

so we have now a lot of rifles without the little "JF" serial number above on the left side I thought before being typical for the Fournier rifles in 7x54. witht he big number on the left side under the caliber this rifles looking like every other rifle made at MAS.

this is a similar non standard rifle
number 002 and chambered for the wildcat cartridge 30,284
the rifle have a muzzle break probably for the 8x60S http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-calibre-30-284-item-854608.html











looks like different parts were mixed for the last two rifle's here

what to think about this now?
-the Mas 36 sporting rifle was made by MAS between 1946/47 and 1951
-Mas made this rifle in 7x57, 8x60S and 10,75x68
-the rifles were not build continuous because higher serial numbers have barrels made in 1947
-after the end in the Manufacture d'armes de Saint-Étienne it seems Fournier and probably Sterna bought the remaining parts on stock and made rifles
- only Fournier rifles are made in 7x54 and its possible he rechamber existing 7x57 barrels
- Sterna rechamber 7x57 barrels in .284 Winchester
- it seems Fournier get a wild mix of parts, some receiver numbered, some not
- the last two rifles here showing that the different parts were used to made unusual combinations


kuduae
(.400 member)
29/10/14 08:53 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

but the rear sight is completly unique.








Sako rear sight! My Sako L461, .222 Rem., proofed 1978, came with the same rear sight.


DarylS
(.700 member)
29/10/14 10:13 AM
Re: french connection

So did M700 Remington rifles.

lancaster
(.470 member)
29/10/14 02:49 PM
Re: french connection

thanks

lancaster
(.470 member)
11/11/14 05:22 AM
Re: french connection

ok, dont look for this but find it nonetheless
Manufacture d'Armes de St-Etienne catalog, the year is unknown



Courtesy of Alain Daubresse/ www.littlegun.info special thanks


http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/saint%20etienne/a%20mas%20carabine%20legere%20gb.htm


lancaster
(.470 member)
18/11/14 03:54 PM
Re: french connection

another piece for the puzzle

a 7x57 rechambered into a 284 Winchester by Aldo Sterna/Annecy serial number 702
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-STERNA-Annecy-cal-284W-item-2232019.html



















what I have found is that the 7x57 mauser was legal for some years in france but then outlawed again. for use in the colony's there were never any restrictions anyway. I have the impression the production of this sporting rifle was terminated by MAS probably in 1951/1952. maybe this was done because of new demand by the war in south east asia and the upcoming riots in north africa.

it seems that remaining rifles and parts were sold to Jean Fournier and Aldo Sterna. Fournier bypassed the 7x57 problem with his 7x54 wildcat and Sterna rechambered allways existing barrels into the 284 winchester. every Sterna made rifle till now have "7x57" on the receiver.
there may also some rifle allready be sold when the 7x57 was outlawed again and going back to sterna and fournier for geting a new chamber.


lancaster
(.470 member)
30/12/14 11:08 PM
Re: french connection

find pics of the FRF1 and FRF2 sniper rifle action showing the difference and similarity to the Mas 36 mother action
its maybe not completly uninterestingly if you try to understand this topic












worked as a hunting rifle http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=4








the FRF2 in 308 Win. is still in use, here last year in Mali


Ash
(.400 member)
31/12/14 05:33 PM
Re: french connection

This .284 looks nice.



lancaster
(.470 member)
31/12/14 06:31 PM
Re: french connection

where did you find it? any chance to get the SN?

Ash
(.400 member)
01/01/15 03:29 AM
Re: french connection

It's one you posted above, sorry. Nothing new, just commenting on that particular rifle.
How's your 10.75 coming along?

You are the king if finding wacky. :d


lancaster
(.470 member)
04/01/15 07:09 AM
Re: french connection

ok, the scope, scope mount and bipod in the next pics looking horrible but we will try to ignore it and concentrate on the rifle alone.
its a Fournier made rifle in 7x54 with the own serial number 019
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-calibre-7x54-item-2358792.html
in my mind its another example showing that Founier take over the stock of parts, work in progress and rifles. its obvious that Fournier use receiver with an allready existing serial number and without.











here is another Fournier Rifle were the receiver was allready having the Mas serial number 1231. the "4" in "7x54" looks a little bit out of line so maybe changed from original 7x57.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?15790-MAS-Mle-1936-Survey-for-the-New-Forum




could be the 7x54 rifles with the Mas serial number were all made by Mas as 7x57 and only rechambered into 7x54 by Fournier to make it legal when the 7x57 was again outlawed for civilians.






Sterna build also such rifles so it seems they both bought the rifles and parts on stock in the Mas factory just when having an order.
rifle no. 136 in 8x60 must have been such a rifle more or less finnished when sterna stamp his name on the receiver and sold it.

this one is in 243 win and its clear Sterna complete the receiver, stock and maybe the barrel with surplus parts for military rifles.

notice the trigger guard is without the safety






the left side of the receiver must have the word "calibre" from the beginning.



lancaster
(.470 member)
11/01/15 02:39 AM
Re: french connection

a 300 Savage, probably rebored 7x57 Mauser barrel
SN 776 - thanks Larcher



http://www.naturabuy.fr/mas-36-item-2223085.html


Ash
(.400 member)
15/01/15 06:49 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

this was the first rifle I have seen



an american soldier bought this in Vietnam from an old french master. looks like there is no serial number




The owner of this rifle removed the serial number in the photo. For some reason people are scared to show serial numbers, but the actual rifle still has its number intact. I will set out a quest to acquire it (the number) for your list.


lancaster
(.470 member)
29/01/15 01:14 AM
Re: french connection

10,75x68, SN 491 in auction
http://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-carabine-Mas-10-75-68-item-2401372.html















Old_Glass
(.300 member)
23/02/15 04:54 PM
Re: french connection

I still kick myself for choosing a Swedish M96 in a trade when I could have had a like-new MAS36. They are reputed to be one of the most accurate military bolt actions due to the horizontally locking lugs. Whether the rear locking lugs play any part in that I don't know.

lancaster
(.470 member)
09/03/15 05:33 AM
Re: french connection

a 7x54 by Jean Fournier SN: JF 053









http://www.naturabuy.fr/Vente-carabine-Fournier-7x54-item-2471230.html

again a rifle probably bought by Fournier in parts out of the MAS factory stock. the receiver without SN and caliber designation, the 7x57 Mauser barrel rechambered to 7x54 Fournier and the hole rifle not painted black but only phosphated.


a remarkable detail is the use of the 7x54 Sako (or Lapua ?) in the 7x54 rifles. the 7x54 was a cartridge no rifle exist when it came into production, its a 6,5x55 necked up to 7mm and the base diameter is +/- 0,2mm under the base diameter of the 7x54 Fournier/7,5x54 but it seems nobody care about it.






Igorrock
(.400 member)
09/03/15 07:10 PM
Re: french connection

7x54 was quite popular wild cat caliber in Finland after WWII. You mostly could see it in rebored (original caliber 6,5 Japanese)and civilized Arisaka military rifles. Ordinary twist of barrel is quite low, just good for light 5,1g bullets which are same whose SAKO made for their own caliber 7x33. There is too 7x53R which has necked down 7,62x53R case.

lancaster
(.470 member)
10/03/15 03:18 AM
Re: french connection

loading light bullets on full power rifle cartridges was a finnish speciality in the post war decades. I think your compatriots have use such bullets also on bigger game than fox or wild geese, why not on roe deer also.
my older kemira reloading list is the only one having 308 Winchester loads with the 4,8 gramm bullet for the 7,65 Browning pistol cartridge. the only RWS load I can compare with this was the 6 gramm bullet in the 6,5x57, a cartridge used on anything in the alps.

this here is such a 10 rounds collector ammo box we were talking about lately Igorrock. its for sale but with 50 euro not realy the bargain of week.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
10/03/15 06:30 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

loading light bullets on full power rifle cartridges was a finnish speciality in the post war decades.


For good reasons; 5,1g round nose fmj bullet was/is very good killer for such big birds as blackgrouse and capercaillie. I have shot some birds with my 7x53R and noticed that this bullet is very accurate and flat shooter to 100-150 meter distances. Nowadays, when we in due course have some roe deers in Finland, is same bullet with bly nose very usefull. My friend has single shot Arisaka in 7x54 and said it´s very nice caliber for roe deer.

DarylS
(.700 member)
10/03/15 12:16 PM
Re: french connection

Maybe it's just me, but I find these guns Sooooooo - ugly and clumsy looking.

Ash
(.400 member)
10/03/15 02:00 PM
Re: french connection

They're very slim, Daryl

Am looking foward to getting mine (10.75x68) and taking it for buffalo. Just waiting on updates from Larcher at the moment.


lancaster
(.470 member)
10/03/15 03:44 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Maybe it's just me, but I find these guns Sooooooo - ugly and clumsy looking.




looking strange but believe me the handling is exellent


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/04/15 02:38 AM
rifle in the house, still in the white

got the new-old Mas today back from my gunmaker, its officially now reborn as a 10,75x68.














sometimes life is stranger than fiction



Igorrock
(.400 member)
03/04/15 03:05 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

Looks very good. Are you going to use any scope with it ?

lancaster
(.470 member)
03/04/15 04:37 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

no scope at all, its a fun rifle
remember the day when you send me the link to this rifle igorrock who would have thought that it will end this way?
polishing and blueing starts now but I will make it so you see it have some history and is a honourable working gun.

the guy in the proof house in suhl had grumble a little bit because the chamber dimension were on the upper end of allowable tolerance BUT it is still within and so pass the proof with flying colours.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
03/04/15 06:12 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

Quote:

remember the day when you send me the link to this rifle igorrock who would have thought that it will end this way?


Still at yours service....
Quote:

the guy in the proof house in suhl had grumble a little bit because the chamber dimension were on the upper end of allowable tolerance BUT it is still within and so pass the proof with flying colours.


So you could say yours barrel is just chamfered to SAAMI specs...

Ash
(.400 member)
04/04/15 09:19 PM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

I like your floor, Lancaster.

The rifle's come up great! How'd he end up redoing the caliber stampings?
Fired it yet? Bet you're excited


lancaster
(.470 member)
04/04/15 11:09 PM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

"I like your floor, Lancaster."

thanks, its the marble the 3 silesian wars were fight for
quarry for the kings palace but now in my kitchen
no, I did not steal it

did not shoot the rifle, got it thursday, bluing the small parts on friday, the barreled action will be send for blueing after the easter days. I simply dont have a suitable pot to make the blueing of such large parts here.

have some cartridges for a first test but need a die set. need a 6,5x53R and a 8x58RD die set too so its time ch4d get an order.

my tool maker tig welded over the old caliber engraving and I sand and polished the receiver than. the new caliber engraving was done with a common engraving machine.

as we say here " the blind man dont see it and the stupid dont know it"


first impression







with my 10,75x57


the mauser for a much smaller cartridge weighs 3500 gramm, the Mas 3400 gramm


Igorrock
(.400 member)
05/04/15 04:14 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

Quote:

the mauser for a much smaller cartridge weighs 3500 gramm, the Mas 3400 gramm




Some bars of lead to right places will make it much more comfortable to shoot. The heavier weight isn´t any problem if balance is right.


DarylS
(.700 member)
05/04/15 06:25 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

They do indeed look, ----- Slim.

Carpetsahib
(.333 member)
05/04/15 07:32 AM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

What do you think about the placement and shape of the pistol grip? Would it fit better if the grip radius was shorter, in order to place your finger closer to the trigger?

I like what you are doing to that rifle. I am also trying to talk myself out of acquiring one for my personal collection.


lancaster
(.470 member)
05/04/15 08:29 PM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

my hands are comparative small but I dont have any problems with the size of the stock. it fits and is ergonomic without being so awful ugly like modern stuff.

I am happy about anyone looking for more and especially for forgotten stuff to bring it back into the minds of the vintage gun collecting community. my special interest is the 10,75x68 Mauser cartridge and anything about it. knowing this cartridge is not much liked anymore but I dont care.


Ash
(.400 member)
05/04/15 09:21 PM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

Quote:

I am also trying to talk myself out of acquiring one for my personal collection.




You're in the wrong thread for that, dear Sir!


Carpetsahib
(.333 member)
06/04/15 11:45 PM
Re: rifle in the house, still in the white

Quote:

Quote:

I am also trying to talk myself out of acquiring one for my personal collection.




You're in the wrong thread for that, dear Sir!


I know, I really should be in some sort of treatment program. Maybe Xausa can provide some therapy...

Or perhaps, we could change the subject and talk about sporterizing Swiss K31s, or maybe Dutch Beaumonts.


lancaster
(.470 member)
22/04/15 04:57 AM
10,75x68 finished

so its done






my teutonic cartridge trio

10,75x68, 9,3x64 and 11,2x60


it feels allways good when a long work comes to its end! ch4d told me the die sets are on the way.

what have we find out?
the Mas 36 as a hunting rifle was made probably between 1946/47 and 1951 as a low budget rifle for the hunter who had lost his rifle in the times of WW2 and was needing an inexpensive replacement.
the rifle was made in 7x57 Mauser, 8x60S and 10,75x68 but there was a problem with the 7x57.
the good old mauser cartridge was actually banned for being a military round but this only in france and not in the colonys and for a short time it was not banned in france also. probably in 1951 Mas stop to made the rifle maybe because the war in indochine became to hot and they need the workforce only for this.
it seems Mas had a large stock of parts and semi manufactured rifles. the 7x57 Mauser rifles were rechambered by the french gunmaker Fournier for his 7x54 Fournier wildcat, a 7,5x54 based cartridge which cut the old 7mm Mauser chamber. it seems Fournier also build new rifles by using old Mas parts. some of his rifles have still Mas serial number but other were made by using an unnumbered receiver and get a new serial number.
another possiblity was to rechamber the rifle after the 7x57 was again outlawed for the 284 Winchester, a cartridge with bigger measurments then 7mm Mauser again. this was done by the french gunmaker Sterna but cant be older than 1963 when the cartridge came on the market. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.284_Winchester

till now I have find
8 rifles in 7x54, ex 7x57
4 rifles in 284 WIN, ex 7x57
4 rifles in 8x60S
2 rifles, another cartridge

9 rifles in 10,75x68

of course the 10,75 is the rifle that interest me the most

original 7x57 Mauser rifles are very rare today and I have only heard of one.


this post will go on so long I see a new example, thank you for your attention


Igorrock
(.400 member)
22/04/15 04:24 PM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

OK, project done! So next what you need is a bigger gun safe and some more projets....

Ash
(.400 member)
22/04/15 05:43 PM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

That 11.2x60 looks a bit shunned now, perhaps it would like to move to Australia?


Congrats on getting it finished, Lancaster! Looks great! Let me know how it shoots


lancaster
(.470 member)
23/04/15 01:43 AM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

Quote:

OK, project done! So next what you need is a bigger gun safe and some more projets....




thanks , please not more projects! four projects in work, three rifles still problems with the scope or better said one problem and two not finished

I have more than enough

Quote:

That 11.2x60 looks a bit shunned now, perhaps it would like to move to Australia?




if so you must take the 300 cases, 1000 bullets and the die set also


Ash
(.400 member)
24/04/15 02:57 PM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

No way, you need to maintain your current number of projects

lancaster
(.470 member)
03/07/15 06:36 PM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

ex 7x57 SN 375
now in .284 Win, clearly rechambered by Sterna
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-occasion-284-Win-item-1762047.html






named Mas Founier this rifle got a new FN/Herstal barrel in 270 Win but if the work was done by or for Fournier is not clear.
very low SN 82 this was another ex 7x57 Mauser http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-calibre-270-Win-item-2719656.html



















lancaster
(.470 member)
06/07/15 02:09 AM
french connection

before ts lost again, now historical pic showing the Mas 36 in 7x54 in action in the Pyrenean, isard hunting in the sixties.




http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=267413&Main=251578#Post267413


lancaster
(.470 member)
30/08/15 03:43 PM
Re: french connection

SN 917 in 7x54 rechambered by Fournier http://www.naturabuy.fr/mas-fournier-7X54-item-2815612.html










barrel is make in 1947 and looks like there is a 7x57 stamp on it. the receiver have a clean 7x54 marking so probably take over by Fournier in the white and than completed with the rechambered barrel


lancaster
(.470 member)
06/09/15 11:37 PM
Re: french connection

10,75x68, SN 746
looks very good














http://www.naturabuy.fr/carabine-base-MAS-56-item-2827868.html


lancaster
(.470 member)
17/10/15 06:25 PM
Re: french connection

7x54 Fournier barrel for sale, again make in 1947 what supports my theory that the parts were made between 1946 and maybe 1948 and than rifles were build on demand just by using the barrel in the caliber ordered









http://www.naturabuy.fr/Canon-mas-fournier-item-2851931.html


lancaster
(.470 member)
23/01/16 09:06 PM
Re: french connection

7x54 with "JF" before of the unknown SN , phosphat finish
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-CAL-7X54-item-3067185.html

















not a textbook Mas 36 hunting rifle this 300 savage was made probably some times later with old parts and a new made barrel
http://www.naturabuy.fr/mas-36-300-savage-item-2784916.html

















Brithunter
(.300 member)
24/01/16 11:53 AM
Re: french connection

Interesting and nice to see these old rifles saved and appreciated. Thank you for sharing.

lancaster
(.470 member)
26/01/16 04:01 AM
Re: french connection

my pleasure, nobody who had seen this became more stupid and I have learned about this just like you. all the gun nuts who had not known this rifle before understand now what it is.

when seeing the first 10,75x68 mas in the net I was need it


Brithunter
(.300 member)
01/02/16 07:37 AM
Re: french connection

I knew of the Military 7.5mm MAS but never even gave sporting rifles built on the MAS a thought. That was daft of me really as I know the Sproting rilfes on British and American military rifles fairly well. It now seems that there is a chance we might even be coming to France.

lancaster
(.470 member)
04/02/16 06:43 PM
Re: french connection

this Mas have seen probably the chamber reamer three times. it looks like make as a 7x57 by MAS than rechambered by Fournier in 7x54, restamp as 7x54 on the left side of the receiver and than again rechambered probably by Sterna in 284 Winchester.
SN is not clear to see but looks like 200 -300
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-Fournier-cal-284-Winchester-item-3083993.html

















lancaster
(.470 member)
04/06/16 02:54 PM
french connection

7x54 , SN "JF 342"
http://www.naturabuy.fr/carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-item-3272924.html







Rule303
(.416 member)
04/06/16 10:18 PM
Re: french connection

Thanks for posting Lancaster. I knew of the MAs but not much, after going through this thread I know a bit more. Wouldn't mind getting my hands on one.

The rear sight looks the same as found on the Brno Model 1


lancaster
(.470 member)
09/07/16 02:06 PM
Re: french connection

7x54, SN JF 152
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-FOURNIER-item-3357371.html





Hardrada55
(.224 member)
13/07/16 04:57 AM
Re: french connection



lancaster
(.470 member)
21/08/16 06:11 AM
Re: french connection

a 10,75x68 for sale http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-occasion-10-75x68-mm-Mauser-item-3382956.html















Ash
(.400 member)
21/08/16 08:55 PM
Re: french connection

Reminds me i still need to get mine here :P

lancaster
(.470 member)
18/09/16 10:12 PM
Re: french connection

JF 295 serial number, 7x54
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-7x54-Fournier-item-3438671.html
























lancaster
(.470 member)
21/10/16 05:26 AM
Re: french connection

the 10,75x68 from above




have the serial number 569


Old_Glass
(.300 member)
22/10/16 01:32 AM
Re: french connection

For a target rifle it is a fine action, potentially very accurate due it is said, to the horizontally locking lugs, but oh my, it is no Bugatti of the rifle world!

I've never owned one, but how is the bolt to manipulate and how much clearance is there between the thumb and a scope tube?


lancaster
(.470 member)
22/10/16 04:41 AM
Re: french connection

never handle a rifle with scope on it but the actions is made very ergonomic

in all I like it


lancaster
(.470 member)
06/12/16 07:34 PM
french connection

7x54 , SN 1526
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Vend-carabine-cal-7x54-chasseurs-collectionneur-item-3575583.html























lancaster
(.470 member)
14/03/17 12:45 AM
Re: french connection

three different 7x54, clearly to see by the phosphated parts this are later made rifles having probably only a "JF ..." serial number

http://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-occasion-7x54-Fournier-item-3731584.html














http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-CAL-7X54-item-3689633.html























http://www.naturabuy.fr/Magnifique-carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-7-54-item-3643698.html

JF 227

















lancaster
(.470 member)
12/05/17 04:54 AM
Re: 10,75x68 finished

7x54 JF SN 854 http://www.naturabuy.fr/vends-carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-cal-7x54-item-3827079.html

clearly made with military rifle parts because the old stock for the hunting rifle production was works up than















lancaster
(.470 member)
15/07/17 03:15 PM
Re: french connection

7x54, SN JF 169 http://www.naturabuy.fr/Mas-fournier-7x54-fournier-item-3989433.html





















an interesting collector cartridge falls into the Mas 36 sporting rifle topic


http://www.naturabuy.fr/Peu-courant-8-60-ATE-1948-item-3332937.html

my question about this rifle when notice it the first time was were they got ammo in 10,75x68 than and it came to surface that the french military arsenal ATE was making sporting ammo in 10,75x68 in this years. don't look for the 8x60S model + ammo question but in the end in was the same problem.
and what have we here? voila a 8x60 cartridge made by ATE in 1948.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
16/07/17 12:21 AM
Re: french connection

This bend safety lever looks quite interesting....

lancaster
(.470 member)
29/10/17 08:53 PM
Re: french connection

7x54 , SN is JF 606
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-item-4040204.html













7x54 barrel for sale http://www.naturabuy.fr/CANON-MAS-F-item-3949435.html









lancaster
(.470 member)
28/11/17 05:19 AM
Re: french connection

7x54, SN JF 522
http://www.naturabuy.fr/V96N-MAS-FOURNIER-item-4378276.html
a late J. Fournier rifle





















lancaster
(.470 member)
03/12/17 05:35 PM
Re: french connection

7x54 https://www.naturabuy.fr/vend-carabine-M...em-4234452.html





lancaster
(.470 member)
17/12/17 04:32 AM
Re: french connection

10,75x68, SN 771
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-10-75x58-item-4429167.html

























lancaster
(.470 member)
07/07/18 06:01 AM
Re: french connection

10,75x68, SN 622
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-item-4893671.html



















lancaster
(.470 member)
27/08/18 04:59 AM
Re: french connection

looks like the last service day of the MAS 36 action comes closer

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/08/22/france-in-search-of-new-sharpshooter-rifle/


93x64mm
(.416 member)
28/08/18 05:15 AM
Re: french connection

Lancaster, you do wonderful work putting these threads together on unusual rifles in different calibres, please keep up the good work!
Never thought that the MAS would fall into that category, it certainly is a surprise packet that can be made into a heavy hitter - A 10.75x68mm no less!
I wonder what rifle type you pick for the next thread?


lancaster
(.470 member)
29/08/18 04:52 AM
Re: french connection

7x54 Fournier made rifle
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-Calibre-7x54-fournier-sans-prix-reserve-item-4938650.html











lancaster
(.470 member)
24/09/18 01:56 AM
Re: french connection

SN 1526 but in 7x54 mas founier so it must be an action in the white that was taken over after Mas stopped production and Fournier startet his own business
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-calibre-origine-7x54-item-5077636.html



















lancaster
(.470 member)
21/11/18 08:54 AM
Re: french connection

7x54, SN 1336
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-Calibre-7x54-fournier-sans-prix-reserve-item-4938650.html






















lancaster
(.470 member)
02/12/18 07:19 AM
Re: french connection

original 7x54 Fournier got a new barrel in belgium for the 243 Win
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Mise-prix-1E-MAS-36-Fournier-7x54-item-5223161.html


















and a orignal barrel in 7x54
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Canon-carabine-Mas-Fournier-item-5230079.html







7x54 , SN 1502
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-type-FOURNIER-7-54-OCCASION-item-5225169.html




















7x54, JF 708
https://www.jjb-collection.com/en/carabine-de-chasse-mas-fournier-xml-350_357_462-8927.html











9.3x57
(.450 member)
02/12/18 09:43 AM
Re: french connection

lancaster; do you know when the last 36-type sporter was built?

lancaster
(.470 member)
02/12/18 06:48 PM
Re: french connection

what I have learned till now is this project startet maybe in 1946/47. the idea behind this was to made a low budget hunting rifle for hunters who lost the rifle in WW 2 because of gun confiscation.
oldest date I have is 1947, last rifle build by Mas proably 1950/51.
it seems they made 2000 - 2500 actions with serial number in the white + stocks and offer the rifle in 7x57, 8x60S and 10,75x68. maybe barrels where also made in small lots before.
whenever they get an order for a rifle one action was taken and a barrel in the desired caliber was screwed in. the actions probably rest in a big box and they taken the one above not looking number 2 came after number 1 any time.
in 1950/51 french firms find out that MAS as a state owned arsenal was not allowed to made hunting guns for the market and so they made trouble about it.
MAS abandon the thing but the man in charge of this project Jean Fournier decided to work as a private master gunmaker now on his own. he leave the firm bought the rest of the parts still on stock and continue to offer hunting rifles now made in his own shop. probably the same time the 7x57 Mauser became again illegal for civil use like it was before but only in the mainland and not in the colonys.
Fournier solving the problem by create his own wildcat the 7x54 Fournier, a 7,5x54 necked down to 7 mm with 7x57 ballistic. the chamber reamer of the 7x54 was enough to rechamber the old 7x57 barrels he still had.
so you see older MAS made 7x57 rifles rechambered for the 7x54, rifles made from the original stock build by Fournier with the original MAS serial number. sometimes the actions had no caliber designation before or the old 7x57 designation was xed out or overwritten, changed into a "7x54".
such rifles have sometimes an extra "JF xxx" serial number and sometimes not.


https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20160101/282514362462591



after the old stock ended Fournier was buying MAS 36 parts from MAS and continued to made rifles now having only the 7x54 designation on the action and his own JF serial number.


lancaster
(.470 member)
02/12/18 09:09 PM
Re: french connection

I take a look again and found this on a french site
http://www.tircollection.com/t26515-iden...unette-l810-apx














its a 8x60S with scope and leave the factory 0n 17.12.1955
maybe the work at MAS was going at least up to 1955. very low serial number but like I said they take what was on top of the box.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/12/18 01:44 AM
Re: french connection

lancaster, you are the man!!

Thank you very much!!

One of the things I always find interesting is the effect gun control laws have on the sporting market and on gun sales themselves. Going way back, some Austrian pocket pistols had ludicrously long barrels to meet the length requirement in the Empire, Mexican restrictions on pistol bore side made the .45 illegal and encouraged the .38 ACP and Super and of course fast forwarding to the USA today where we have all sorts of bizarre contraptions built to meet various state laws, and of course the very interesting straight-pull AR's that have been built for sale in England.

As for France, IIRC all military cartridges are STILL banned for sporting use in France? {Just like in some Latin American countries.}

I remember one of my uncles was a missionary to Ecuador and had his Savage 24 .30-30/12 {?} gauge confiscated by the government many years ago because of the ".30" cal of the rifle barrel. It was considered a "military" caliber, at least by the PM's that heisted it from him!

So here you are talking about a very fine hunting cartridge created to skirt around French laws.
Very interesting!

Your history is quite fascinating. Again, effects of war. I never really thought about HOW men who lost their sporting weapons obtained replacements. I always just thought the normal market forces applied and hunters bought as they could from the available commercial options.

I do have to say, there is something strange and yet very appealing to me about those MAS sporters. They just look like they would balance well in the hand. Very unique rifle, very interesting thread!! Again, a whole world of arms culture foreign to those of us stuck limping along with one language!


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/12/18 06:31 AM
Re: french connection

dont forget the old austro-hungarian pocket pistols had a very long barrel but the front sight was located in the middle of it so you could take a hacksaw at home and made a real pocket pistol of this in two minutes.
gunlaws to forbid special things are a challenge for human ingenuity and allmost ever the brain find a way.
if we look for the Mas 36 hunting rifle it was offered in 8x60S a cartridge invented by the german gun industry in the 1920s after the allied restrict the amount of military rifles in 8x57. so every privat person was forced to rechamber his mauser to the new 8x60.
this cartridge was a succes called sometimes 8x60 Magnum or 8x60 Bombe showing it was a potent round. anyway in the 1930s the ban falling in germany and people go back to the beloved 8x57.
but Belgium and France who were behind this ban get a new gun law that ban all military cartridges for civil use.
France just before WW 2 maybe in the moment when the leftist loser of the spanish civil war crossing the french boarder with a mishmash of militarys rifles. when the war ended the law was still in use there now to get the many military guns out of the population.
8x57 was still a great cartridge like the mauser 98 was a fine rifle so now the french and belgian were forced to rechamber the rilfes for the 8x60. this happen until some years now - maybe 4-5- when the law in france was changed. don't know the situation in belgium today.
now the french law only ban actuall military cartridges like 308, 223 rem or 7,62x39.

a history of gunlaws against special guns, cartridges or gun parts and how this story ended than would be good read.

8x60S is a rare caliber in the Mas 36 and many of this rifles were actually sold in the french occupation zone in germany including my own rifle that was sold by a gundealer in Freiburg near the french boarder.
crop protection was important than like it is now, maybe more because the times were much harder. so the french who confiscate any hunting rifle they got in the hands were forced in the end to sold the new rifles to the krauts.
never see a 7mm Mas rifle with such a german dealer stamp so it seems they were hardcore 8 mm lovers.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/12/18 01:14 PM
Re: french connection

Thanks lanc!

By the way, what nationality are you?


Louis
(.375 member)
03/12/18 08:31 PM
Re: french connection

I order to follow-up on Lancaster’s post, please find below some additional information; hunting rifles/shotguns are classified into various categories in France each of them subject to specific acquistion requirements, in short:
• Most hunting rifles/shotguns can be bought directly from a gunshop providing that you present a valid ID Card as well as a valid shooting/hunting licence. Until summer 2018 it was still possible to sell directly your rifles to another registered hunter/shooter but now the sale has to be endorsed by a registered gunshop; in addition to allowing the government more control on the people, this decision is also motivated by the fact that registered gunshop have now access to the government’s online list of people not allowed to detain weapons (criminal record, mental illness, etc.). Once the sale endorsed by the gunshop, information about new ownership is forwarded to the relevant French authorities (the equivalent of the US BATF).
• = all hunting rifles/shotguns are allowed providing that semi-automatic one cannot fire more than 3 rounds without reloading, total length is more than 80 cm and barrel is not shorter than 45 cm.
• Almost all hunting ammunition are now allowed, including 6,5x54 MS, .308, 30-06, 7x57, 8x57 JS, etc. (all former general issue ammunition in previous conflicts), which was not the case until a couple of years ago. Ammunition still subject to specific permission (filing more paperwork) are the 7,62 x 39 Russian; 5,56 x 45 (the military version of the hunting .223); 5,45 x 39 Russian; 12,7 x 99; and 14,5 x114 mainly.
• There is no limitation in France on the number of ‘standard’ hunting rifles/shotguns that an individual can own as well as on the number of associated ammunition that can be purchased.
• As above mentioned, these ‘standard’ hunting rifles/shotguns are subject to declaration of ownership to the local authorities i.e. you can buy first providing that you are entitled to buy and then the gunshop declares the ownership. Other categories of weapons such as hand-weapons, semi-automatic rifles with large magazine capacity, full-automatic ones , etc. are subject to authorization to buy first i.e. you file a request for buying a specific type of weapon/serial number and have to wait for permission first before taking it from the gunshop; the number of such weapons an individual can own is limited, as well as the number of ammunition one can purchase annually.
• Unless getting a specific permission delivered by the government, which is extremely difficult to get, it is not allowed to carry weapons either concealled or not in France, unless being on hunting grounds. When going to the shooting range or to the hunting grounds, your weapon(s) must be stored unloaded in such a way one won’t have direct access to it (most people load it in the car’s trunk/boot); ammunition must also be stored separately from the weapon.
• Individuals are not allowed to detain tanks, missile launchers, submarines, etc.

In short, some form of government control in France but not as stringent as in some other Western European countries. The French people, mainly those with rural background, are fighting hard to keep the right to hold weapons and to hunt, which they got from the French Revolution. There is a huge number of weapons (declared and probably undeclared also) circulating in France : hunting ones, military ones from Allied Forces parachuting during WW2, and since more recently most modern stock that poured into Western Europe following the Yugoslavia wars in the 90’s.

Louis


9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/12/18 09:58 PM
Re: french connection

Louis, thank you for that very interesting summary! It seems just as you say, the laws are not nearly as severe as some other countries.

As to your last note, WW2 covert and Resistance/Maquis/Motstand operations have always been a topic of historical interest to me and from that study it seems to me that of the vast number of weapons that my Norwegian friend calls "weapons that fell from the sky" during WW2, there must still be quite a large number in circulation. Here in the USA following the restrictions placed on full automatic weapons, the government has offered periodic amnesties, that is, allowances for turning in full-auto weapons without threat of confiscation. We have not had one in many years, but with the deaths of almost all WW2 veterans now it seems they might want to do so again. A couple years ago a little old lady walked into a cop shop and produced a supposedly mint, brand new condition German Sturmgewehr 44 her recently deceased husband brought back from the war! Because of the weapon/condition, it made national news!

What happens if a weapon of that type is found in possession of an individual? Have there been amnesties or other opportunities for turning in weapons without risk of criminal prosecution?


Louis
(.375 member)
03/12/18 10:49 PM
Re: french connection

9,3x57
If an individual finds an 'undeclared' family weapon in France it must report it to the authorities; depending on which type/category of weapon it is, the person may be able to keep it (e.g. a hunting rifle or derelict general issue rifle), or file for permission to detain it personally (e.g. a US Carbine) or turn it over (e.g. a Panzer Faust). Permissions are never to be taken for granted and are delivered on a case-by-case basis.
Failing to declare a 'family' weapon is considered a crime and subject to prosecution; as in the US, the French Govt. offers regular amnesties, probably because people are still slow to declare their undeclared weapons.

Louis


9.3x57
(.450 member)
04/12/18 02:47 AM
Re: french connection

Thanks Louis! Very interesting. Yes, sounds like a similar process, tho here, as far as I know, there is no LEGAL mechanism to allow for a turning in of a FULL AUTO weapon or what are called "destructive devices" or "any other weapon" {grenades, Panzerfäuste, etc} outside of an amnesty, so one takes a risk doing so. Thus, I suspect some weapons, if the owner knows the law, are simply kept, hidden or privately destroyed.

I can only imagine the rural areas must have an abundance of "hardware" still floating about there in France. One thing many are unaware of is of the 5 million or so US M1 Carbines manufactured, a substantial number were dropped to Resistance and partizan forces in Western Europe, East Asia and the South Pacific. Frederick Spencer Chapman references the latter in Malaya in his classic "The Jungle is Neutral" and also states that few were turned in in spite of the call to do so at the end of the war due to their handiness and usefulness in pig hunting.

Regarding that and the Francophone regions, youtube is full of modern videos of hunters in Laos and Viet Nam and one of the recurrent rifles present is the good'ole US M1 Carbine, certainly rifles from the US/VN war era but very possibly including those left behind by the French and maybe even a few from WW2 days as well!


Louis
(.375 member)
04/12/18 04:35 AM
Re: french connection

Noted 9,3x57, thank your for your interesting input.
Lancaster, sorry for having hijacked your thread; it was only for a short while and I won't do it again!
Louis


lancaster
(.470 member)
06/12/18 07:20 AM
Re: french connection

you make me feel ashamed Louis

my thread is your thread and you can allways do here what you want to do


lancaster
(.470 member)
29/01/19 08:52 PM
Re: french connection

8x60S, SN 1410
https://www.naturabuy.fr/FUSIL-BERETTA-A...em-5326755.html




















lancaster
(.470 member)
14/04/19 08:05 PM
Re: french connection




https://www.pressreader.com/


lancaster
(.470 member)
21/07/19 04:49 AM
Re: french connection

10,75x68, SN 1303
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-10-75x68-chasse-cartouches-item-5657060.html















7x54, SN JF 589

https://www.naturabuy.fr/carabine-chasse-MAS-FOURNIER-7X54-item-5727278.html


















NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
23/07/19 11:38 AM
Re: french connection

They certainly are an unusual rifle we never see here.



That looks quite cool.

And sort of like a semi-auto bolt action look. For us deprived plebs not permitted to own evil guns such as a BAR.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
23/07/19 11:43 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

10,75x68, SN 1303
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-10-75x68-chasse-cartouches-item-5657060.html







What was the magazine capacity in 10.75x68?

Or in 7x54?


lancaster
(.470 member)
23/07/19 01:39 PM
Re: french connection

allways five

xausa
(.400 member)
23/07/19 08:18 PM
Re: french connection

The deux chevaux of bolt action rifles.

lancaster
(.470 member)
25/07/19 01:30 AM
Re: french connection

the 10,75x68 version is far and away from being an ugly duck
its a very handy and praktical rifle and looks actually very good in every detail. I can say this because being a great admirer of the model 98.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
25/07/19 02:14 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

the 10,75x68 version is far and away from being an ugly duck
its a very handy and praktical rifle and looks actually very good in every detail. I can say this because being a great admirer of the model 98.




I actually agree.

I am not a great fan of the 10.75x68 as it is neither here nor there is the big bore power stakes.

But I like the thought of it in one of these ghastly French rifles. Differently looking anyway.

I know our member larcher had one for a while, getting stuck with it, as on being requested to buy it for another person, and then freight it to Australia, the other guy decided he didn't want it after all .... I believe larcher sold it off to try and recover most of the purchase price, but if he still had it, he could carry it out to Aust for me one day, when he eventually comes again. Soon I hope.

A 10.75x68 with decent 350 gr SPs or FMJs and a five shot magazine would make an adequate water buffalo rifle. Plus more than adequate for scrub bull, camel, horses, donkeys, and certainly wild pigs.

What do these rifles generally weigh? Look like they aren't necessarily light in weight.

How does the magazine work? I haven't gone through all posts for a photo. 7 pages of them! Well done to lancaster and others. Is the magazine internal, I am guessing, but the catch at the bottom opens a floorplate? Or is it a removable magazine?


xausa
(.400 member)
25/07/19 08:28 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

the 10,75x68 version is far and away from being an ugly duck
its a very handy and praktical rifle and looks actually very good in every detail. I can say this because being a great admirer of the model 98.




À chacun son goût.


Louis
(.375 member)
26/07/19 10:07 PM
Re: french connection

Nitrox, you mentioned Larcher in your post; we have now seen him online for ages and we are missing his posts, have you been in contact with him recently and is he well?
Louis


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/07/19 11:37 PM
Re: french connection

larcher is currently being tortured by having to endure a month on holiday on the Riviera at the moment.

I am in touch with him every week most weeks.

I do wish larcher and our other good friends would visit NE forums again or more.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
26/07/19 11:45 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

larcher is currently being tortured by having to endure a month on holiday on the Riviera at the moment.

I am in touch with him every week most weeks.

I do wish larcher and our other good friends would visit NE forums again or more.




Nitro;

If you post the address of this prison you speak of, I'm sure an ad hoc group of irregular Special Forces would be eagerly and immediately assembled to spring him.

It might take some time once the Forces arrive to accomplish this act of charity, but then, one should never jeopardize an operation by too hasty a withdrawl.



Louis
(.375 member)
27/07/19 01:59 AM
Re: french connection

Thank you Nitrox, happy to know Larcher is going well; I am, and I am sure I should not be alone, missing his posts in the Humour category!
Louis


lancaster
(.470 member)
27/07/19 05:40 AM
Re: french connection

to anser all questions: the rifle is 111 cm long and weighs 3650 gramm unloaded
magazine and receiver are made in one piece, the catch at the bottom opens the floorplate. it works as a double row mauser style magazine and hold five 10,75x68 cartridges without any modifications.


lancaster
(.470 member)
09/09/19 12:35 AM
Re: french connection

7x54, SN JF 802
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Vends-carabine-...em-5869922.html













lancaster
(.470 member)
29/09/19 02:52 AM
Re: french connection

7x54,SN JF 366
https://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-MAS-FOURNIER-CALIBRE-7X54-MAS-36-item-5940044.html

















sometimes the exotics meet each other
https://www.naturabuy.fr/carabine-MAS-MATCH-36-Calibre-7-62x51-308-win--item-5924255.html
a 308 win 300meter target rifle with a Mas 36 action and a danish Schultz&Larsen barrel










93x64mm
(.416 member)
29/09/19 07:49 AM
Re: french connection

I reckon that 300m rifle would be a tack driver - S&L were very good barrels indeed!

lancaster
(.470 member)
29/09/19 02:34 PM
Re: french connection

and they are still one of the best because S&L made the barrels in the old fashion no matter what other barrel maker telling you about their space age technology

lancaster
(.470 member)
10/04/20 02:57 PM
Re: french connection


Fournier advertising for his hunting rifle



http://www.tirmaillyforum.com/mildot/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=61055&start=30


lancaster
(.470 member)
07/01/21 03:57 PM
Re: french connection

this 7x54 ATE ammo box was for sale lately






new to me, fits the 10,75x68 box


lancaster
(.470 member)
19/09/21 06:56 PM
Re: french connection

SN 235, original a 7x57 it was rechambered for the .284 Win when the caliber was outlawed
https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-MAS-36...em-7998917.html






















SN 146, same story
https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-MAS36-...em-7665704.html





















Louis
(.375 member)
26/09/21 10:42 PM
Re: french connection

In both examples the rear sight has been altered; the military one was disabled (although it was a diopter, as on MAS45, MAS49 and MAS49/56, a real pleasure to use even in combat shooting) as it allowed shooting over 300 meters, and replaced by new one with foldable leaves placed in front of the magazine. The reason is that we still have in France a (stupid) law forbidding hunting rifles to be fitted with rear sights bearing markings allowing to engage targets at a distance superior to 300 meters.

None of these French military rifles converted to hunting was kept into the original 7,5x54 MAS calibre (a 7,8 mm in reality) as until quite recently (2013), owning in France a rifle chambered in a calibre that had been of standard military issue since the late XIX Century was subject to the same administrative burden than owning a modern pistol or assault rifle. The reason for which until 2013 almost no-one hunted in France with 6,5x54MS, 7x57, 8x57JS, .308, and 30-06 to quote only a few; the most common hunting calibres were then 7x64, .270 Win and .280 Rem, again to quote only a few.

The system was eased but ownership of weapons chambered in calibers that are still in use in today’s international armed forces is still subject in France to important administrative control, even if your rifle is a single-shot .223.

Louis


9.3x57
(.450 member)
26/09/21 11:55 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

In both examples the rear sight has been altered;

The reason is that we still have in France a (stupid) law forbidding hunting rifles to be fitted with rear sights bearing markings allowing to engage targets at a distance superior to 300 meters.


The reason for which until 2013

The system was eased but ownership of weapons chambered in calibers that are still in use in today’s international armed forces is still subject in France to important administrative control, even if your rifle is a single-shot .223.

Louis




Very interesting. I was aware of the law but didn't know it was changed in '13.

Also, interesting they don't require elimination of the tangent base, just the slide.

I wonder how they determine what is a caliber used by a current military force, since many older rifles are still in service?


lancaster
(.470 member)
27/09/21 01:19 AM
Re: french connection

iirc, the new law only see the 308 win, 223 rem, 7,62x39 and 5,45x39 as military cartridges in use. all other stuff is declared obsolete and in fact somewhere on the planet people kill each other with spears and bow + arrows just now.
when the MAS 36 started the 7x57 Mauser was a standard caliber for this rifle. not legal in the mainland but legal in the colony's or the story was it was legal in france for a short time than forbidden again. thats the reason for the rifles above rechambered and shooting the 284 Win.
this was the only factory cartridge that was big enough to cut away the original 7x57 chamber and still work in the action.original Mas hunting rifles for the 7x57 are very hard to find.
after the 7x57 caliber was banned again they necked down the 7,5x54 French to the 7x54 Mas and chambered the following guns for this cartridge.
the fun fact is in the same timeframe lapua was necking up the 6,5x55 Swedish into the 7x54 Lapua. this was done without having a rifle in production just to sell it to people who wish to alter a swedish mauser. there was another cartridge based on the swedish mauser cartridge before - the 8x54 Krag and lapua looking for a new market was seeing a possibility.
Owners of a Mas in 7x54 Mas discovered that the 7x54 Lapua was very similar and work in the rifle without any problem so the lapua ammo was mostly sold in france. I think having seen only one original 7x54 lapua rifle over the years for sale in finland.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
27/09/21 02:35 AM
Re: french connection

Thanks for that, lancaster. Very interesting stuff.

Louis
(.375 member)
27/09/21 02:46 AM
Re: french connection

Thank you very much Lancaster for this additional information; only one point to clarify: .308 is now "almost free" to own in France (admin request only for presenting either valid hunting or shooting license) when purchasing.
Louis


DarylS
(.700 member)
27/09/21 03:50 AM
Re: french connection

NitroX- we don't see the French rifles here in Western Canada either. I don't know abut back East, however in my first 20 years there, I saw none.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
27/09/21 04:06 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

NitroX- we don't see the French rifles here in Western Canada either. I don't know abut back East, however in my first 20 years there, I saw none.




None here either and I have never seen a French MAS sporter in the flesh in my life. Have seen the military setups Back East. I fiddled around with one once and found it to be a very interesting rifle, tho the military buttstock was so short it felt like it was cut for a Munchkin.


lancaster
(.470 member)
27/09/21 04:36 AM
Re: french connection

still have the sights and the muzzle brake for an 8 x60S hunting rifle, will work for an .30 caliber barrel too. if you find a butchered sporter that can be change into something good...

first time I stumble about was the 10,75x68 rifle of a vietnam vet that was bought in vietnam from a french farmer were it worked as a tiger gun than. this rifle was allmost unknown in the shooting world before until I start to made this thread.
so, yes, I discover this.


Igorrock
(.400 member)
30/09/21 12:17 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

I think having seen only one original 7x54 lapua rifle over the years for sale in finland.


https://www.metsoase.fi/kivaarit/valmet-mod98-cal7x54-kaytetty-kivaari/p/123450007/

https://www.asetalo.fi/aseet/kaytetyt-aseet/kivaarit/arisaka-7x54-kiv-mets-tuk-illa-kayt-hyva/2808/

https://www.nettiaseet.fi/luvanvaraiset-aseet/myydaan/kivaarit/muut/112252


lancaster
(.470 member)
30/09/21 05:18 AM
Re: french connection

thank you for the links kari












the arisaka looks a little bit drug inspired but the mauser is a nice rifle and for 90 euro a stealing also


Marrakai
(.416 member)
30/09/21 11:21 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

the arisaka looks a little bit drug inspired





As if one white-line spacer isn't already one too many!


9.3x57
(.450 member)
30/09/21 11:37 AM
Re: french connection

I always find Finnish "Bubbas" interesting as they are often so much like our own.

lancaster
(.470 member)
30/09/21 02:22 PM
Re: french connection

in the old west this were two too many https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XkHsinz7oU




no doubt, a man with two white spacer on the gun is the local hunting chief, with 3 white spacer your are the county hunting chief.
3 white spacer make you the state hunting chief and with 4 your are the top of the union.
this is very similar in japan with different colours but they have one rank more called the "mikado"



lancaster
(.470 member)
21/11/21 07:29 AM
Re: french connection

first mas sporter with a scope on claw mount
7x54 , SN 796
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-FOURNIER-Calibre-7x54-item-8295809.html











7x54, SN not readable
https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-MAS-FOURNIER-7X54-AVEC-MUNITIONS-item-8456073.html









7x54, SN JF 295
https://www.naturabuy.fr/carabine-chasse-mas-fournier-calibre-7x54-item-8524283.html











lancaster
(.470 member)
10/12/21 05:39 AM
Re: french connection

a 284 Win, SN 661
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-Manufr...em-8338044.html












you see the original "7x57" was milling out of the receiver when the caliber became illegal
"284" was stamp into this


93x64mm
(.416 member)
10/12/21 08:37 AM
Re: french connection

Lancaster they must be very strong rifles being able to be rebarrelled into many different calibres!
The action & magazine holding section is one huge block of metal - they must have been expensive to mill out & very time consuming to do!


lancaster
(.470 member)
10/12/21 04:03 PM
Re: french connection

the action is stronmg enough but not more than a mauser. 284 win was the next cartridge where a reamer drill out the 7x57 chamber.

DarylS
(.700 member)
10/12/21 06:30 PM
Re: french connection

The 7x57 is about 1/10" longer than the .284, so there will be a bit of a jump. For a hunting rifle, not game changing.

Conor_90
(.224 member)
13/12/21 05:05 PM
Re: french connection

This thread always has me on the lookout for MAS sporters, they are thin on the ground here. I have never seen a MAS in person

lancaster
(.470 member)
14/12/21 07:47 AM
Re: french connection

they are allways rare outside of france and maybe sometimes the old colonies.
this was a cheap early post war hunting rifle made for a special niche. because of the age they have coming for sale more and more because many of the old hunters who bought them in the 1950s wandering now into the eternal hunting grounds. if you dont made export from france it will be a problem.
if you are a do-it-yourselfer and find a butchered rifle I still have the rear and front sigth with muzzle break that will give your build the specific look.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
15/12/21 06:39 AM
Re: french connection

I reckon I saw one in a gun shop last week. I forget to ask about it

lancaster
(.470 member)
15/12/21 07:22 AM
Re: french connection

why do you visit gunshops? don't know you have an interest in such things they having there.
bloody old guns and such ammo that makes bang with a lot of noise.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
15/12/21 08:52 AM
Re: french connection

I'm a terrible person. Feeling really bad ass. Acquired my first hand gun.

Funny for guys with dozens of handguns. When you are denied something, tobacco, booze, kids rebel and try them. So I guess the same feeling for evil handguns.

Mine is for target shooting of course. An almost pristine STI Trojan 1911 style handgun in .38 Super. With five magazines.

Was told lots of handguns are on the market. Interstate. Poor sods needing cash because of plandemic lockdowns, mandate sackings etc.

Good time to acquire used handguns. Bring them to new good homes. No idea why mine was sold. Impossible to get handgun powder in Australia for maybe a year? Did get a few hundred loaded cartridges, 500 projectiles and primers for when powder is again available. Still need dies and a handgun progressive reloading press.

I can also shoot at the indoor range at that gun shop. Dope up on powder fumes.


lancaster
(.470 member)
15/12/21 07:36 PM
Re: french connection

where should it end some day? now you buy a one of the dangerous automatic pistols than start drinking? do you have daily access to alcohol? is it possible for you to take a bottle and go away whenever you will day and night?
where will this ends? under a bridge drinking cheap wine out of a tetra brick?


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
15/12/21 07:50 PM
Re: french connection

Went to a police station today wearing a mask incognito. Laughed at the woman behind the counter " do you use the photo id?"

Next I will go masked up to a bank. Make a cash withdrawal.

One bottle of wine? No one dozen box, get real.


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
18/12/21 07:46 AM
Re: french connection

Congratulations John!

Don't you think you should post some pictures?

Curl


Marrakai
(.416 member)
18/12/21 08:44 AM
Re: french connection

John:
I'm sure you already know this, but being a rifle shooter your whole life let me remind you that there are three crucial things you need to concentrate on to shoot a target handgun well:

1. Front Sight
2. Front Sight
3. Front Sight!

The rear sight is only there to give you a light-gap either side of the front sight.

If you are fitting optics or holographic sights just ignore the above!

I well remember not being able to hit sh!t with the first handgun I was required to use a lifetime ago, a Ruger .357 Security Six, until someone explained the sighting difference to me. I was trying to sight it like a rifle: hopeless! No longer remember who gave me that sage advice, but I am forever grateful.

French connection? None. Thread well-and-truly hijacked now!


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/07/22 12:57 AM
Re: french connection

after along time again a 10,75x68 for sale, 485 euro make it a steal
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-type-Fournier-10-75x68-item-9310067.html





















NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
03/07/22 01:57 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

John:
I'm sure you already know this, but being a rifle shooter your whole life let me remind you that there are three crucial things you need to concentrate on to shoot a target handgun well:

1. Front Sight
2. Front Sight
3. Front Sight!

The rear sight is only there to give you a light-gap either side of the front sight.

If you are fitting optics or holographic sights just ignore the above!

I well remember not being able to hit sh!t with the first handgun I was required to use a lifetime ago, a Ruger .357 Security Six, until someone explained the sighting difference to me. I was trying to sight it like a rifle: hopeless! No longer remember who gave me that sage advice, but I am forever grateful.

French connection? None. Thread well-and-truly hijacked now!




Missed this post. I've beev0n shooting club handguns for maybe 8 years? I will still be doing so, using club 9mm ammo as my .38 Super ammo is too expensive.

I actually shoot reasonably well for boring target shooting, maybe. 480 to 490s out of 500. 10 shots at each 5, 7 15, 20 and 25 yards or metres of some such ranges. Really just competing against oneself. The longest range is getting a bit more blurry now. I shoot for fast accuracy. Accurate but as rapid fire as accurately possible. Sometimes use other stances, single hand, either, or double, hands reversed etc.

I am thinking the .22 RF next as ammo is easy. Join a Metal silhouette club and try for a 1911 .45 ACP in six months time. Maybe a Webley for the same 6 months after that.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
03/07/22 02:42 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

after along time again a 10,75x68 for sale, 485 euro make it a steal
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Carabine-MAS-type-Fournier-10-75x68-item-9310067.html








Why not!


lancaster
(.470 member)
19/03/23 01:57 AM
Re: french connection

10,75x68 https://www.naturabuy.fr/CARABINE-CHASSE...m-10270547.html

















lancaster
(.470 member)
29/04/23 04:00 AM
Re: french connection

read the SN of the last rifle as 1025



the hard to find rifle in 8x60S, here marked as 8x60 Magnum
https://www.galeriedemars.fr/armes-categ...france-xxe.html









9.3x57
(.450 member)
29/04/23 07:03 AM
Re: french connection

i want one of those cobs.

lancaster
(.470 member)
29/04/23 11:09 PM
Re: french connection

it could be easy, buy yourself a cheap sporterlike this https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__ST__ETIENNE_MAS_36_SPORTER_BOLT_ACTION_RIFLE_-LOT494653.aspx

I have the front and rear sight for an 8 mm that can be used for any other caliber up to 8 mm maybe thicker. it would be very simple for a gunsmith to softsolder this parts giving the distinguish look to the rifle.


lancaster
(.470 member)
31/07/23 02:20 AM
Re: french connection

one original 7x57 that survive, SN 481
https://www.galeriedemars.fr/chasse-tir-...france-xxe.html









grandveneur
(.400 member)
31/07/23 10:18 PM
Re: french connection



"Arme de stock en 7x57 produit à la Manufacture d'armes de St Etienne pour l'export vers l'Allemagne, sans succès les armuriers de l'époque on acheté le stock à la MAS dans les années 70, état neuf avec de fines traces de stockage sur le bois et la peinture sans accident, seulement éprouvée à St Etienne à l'époque."


Interesting, but a rifle only intended for export to Germany, since at that time this caliber could only be used in France with a special permit.


lancaster
(.470 member)
01/08/23 12:12 AM
Re: french connection

to my knowledge there was no problem if you bring the rifle to the colonies because the law was only for the main land.

grandveneur
(.400 member)
01/08/23 01:13 AM
Re: french connection

Not only, the gun law of 18 April 1939 also applied to the colonies.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
01/08/23 01:15 AM
Re: french connection

Very interesting.

So...what markets were these sold in other than the aforementioned Germany? I've never heard of them being sold in the USA for example.


grandveneur
(.400 member)
01/08/23 04:49 AM
Re: french connection

Unfortunately I do not know it.

The civilian version of the MAS 36 was not very popular in France, despite the cartridge 7x54 MAS Fournier, which would have been a good hunting cartridge.

Some may be due to the military rifle MAS 36 which was the weapon of the French forces and was in use until the seventies. I myself made my basic training by the army with such a weapon. This rifle was perhaps associated with military service, which was not a pleasant time for many Frenchman's.


lancaster
(.470 member)
01/08/23 06:02 AM
Re: french connection

they were made in the early postwar period as a low budget bolt action hunting rifle for hunter who lost the hunting gun in occupation times. times were still hard and money was low, many pre war makers were out of business for years.
thats the explanation I heard.

otherwise is a very large part of this rifles in 10,75x68. read somewhere that lions, leopards and other increase in the war years because there were no rifles, ammo,time and manpower for hunting them and this makes troubles in the colonies. the mas 36 action fits the 10,75x68 much better than a standard mauser action because its made for a case with the same diameter.


grandveneur
(.400 member)
01/08/23 04:36 PM
Re: french connection

I have never met a hunter armed with a MAS Fournier rifle on hunts in east France for the past 60 years.

The former German-speaking areas of eastern France are certainly exceptions, since 8x57IS caliber weapons were often used without hesitation. My father also used in the fifties and sixties a MS Stutzen caliber 8x56 MS, a cartridge in "1° Categorie" back then.

I don't know what it was at that time in the other regions of France and in the colonies.

I only remember that when I was young there were a few weapons for hunting in the colonies in the catalogues from Manufrance, including MAS Fournier, Rival and modified Mauser K98 , also in caliber 10,75x68, with pictures of hunters with various DG from Africa or Indochina.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
01/08/23 11:09 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

I have never met a hunter armed with a MAS Fournier rifle on hunts in east France for the past 60 years.

The former German-speaking areas of eastern France are certainly exceptions, since 8x57IS caliber weapons were often used without hesitation. My father also used in the fifties and sixties a MS Stutzen caliber 8x56 MS, a cartridge in "1° Categorie" back then.

I don't know what it was at that time in the other regions of France and in the colonies.

I only remember that when I was young there were a few weapons for hunting in the colonies in the catalogues from Manufrance, including MAS Fournier, Rival and modified Mauser K98 , also in caliber 10,75x68, with pictures of hunters with various DG from Africa or Indochina.




I'm curious as to how these rifles such as your Father's Stutzen were obtained after the war or remained in civilian hands during the war. It seems that many appear after the war and of course exist now as lancaster shows us in various posts. My assumption would be that they were owned by individuals who simply ignored confiscation laws and hid them during the war. Is this correct or were there some that having been confiscated by the occupation governments were later released (sold?) in some numbers by the post-war French (or German) governments?

A friend of mine in Norway tells me that there were many caches of weapons the "fell from the sky" (dropped to resistance units) and certainly arms were hidden there, too, but of these many sporterized and or original weapons such as your Father's Stutzen in Germany or France (or other occupied mainland European countries), I do not know much.

I imagine in this topic there are quite a number of very interesting stories!


lancaster
(.470 member)
02/08/23 12:06 AM
Re: french connection

thats what I know about: under german occupation common citizen were be called upon to bring real guns to local collection points where they were stored. they could apply for a gun licence exspecially for small rimfire guns like flobert garden guns.
most of the hunting guns in 1940 were probably 12 and 16 ga double without any military value.
the german occupation force had no documents when gunownership was free and don't know who had what gun so it was only the threat of punishment that would bring people to the collection points. most man probably were bringing grandfathers old rusty hammergun to the german authoritys and hold the new pricy hammerless double in secret. anyway a lot of the guns were lost in the turmoil of the last war years.
also many people lost the money by the post war inflation. maybe not like it was in the pre war great depression but the money you hide under your bed lost real value. so in 1947 the production of a low price Mas 36 hunting rifle was an option.

if you compare pre war german, french and british gun catalogs they were all very similar and a rifle like the mannlicher schönauer was available everywhere.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
02/08/23 01:12 AM
Re: french connection

Danke sehr and merci beaucoup fellows!!

That is all very interesting and certainly fills in a lot of blanks in my knowledge. I find such aspects of history very interesting indeed.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
02/08/23 04:49 AM
Re: french connection

Weren't military cartridge chambered rifles illegal in France post WW2? Until recently?

grandveneur
(.400 member)
02/08/23 05:37 PM
Re: french connection

One cannot say illegal.

It was about the weapons of the so-called "1° Catégorie". Illegal and banned weapons were something else, that was weapons of the "2° Catégorie".

They were weapons and, above all, cartridges that could only be own and used with the permission of the authorities. Obtaining a permit was subject to various conditions.

It wasn't just about weapons of the WWII, but in the first law of 1939 all handguns and rifles that were used in various armed forces worldwide from around 1870, but also partly before.

The law was subsequently corrected several times but was only abolished in 2013 and replaced by the European Union firearms laws.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
03/08/23 12:58 AM
Re: french connection

Thanks. What was the rationale for restricting military cartridge chambered rifles in France?

grandveneur
(.400 member)
03/08/23 01:07 AM
Re: french connection

Right-wing extremist terrorist activities in France shortly before the WWII.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/08/23 05:10 AM
Re: french connection

I think such restriction are common in a number of countries. Italy and the creation of the 9x21 to replace the 9x19 comes to mind and in Latin America I think various countries have "military caliber" restrictions. My uncle was a missionary doctor in Ecuador and had to turn in his Savage over/under 20 ga/.30-30 as it was ".30 caliber" and I know a priest who's father was a retired police officer in Mexico who got into hot water for owning a 1911 .45 ACP, that one I suppose technically wasn't because it was "military" but rather because it was larger than the maximum ".38 caliber".

grandveneur
(.400 member)
03/08/23 05:39 AM
Re: french connection

At long last was this gun law in France ridiculous, because it was all only about the cartridges.

For example, a hunter should not own a classic hunting rifle caliber 308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield, but many semi-automatic military weapons of this calibers have been converted to caliber 7mm-08 or 270 Winchester, or wildcats were developed like a cartridge 30-06 that was only shortened at the neck, the so-called cartridge 30-06 court Cartry. That was legal.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/08/23 05:50 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

At long last was this gun law in France ridiculous, because it was all only about the cartridges.

For example, a hunter should not own a classic hunting rifle caliber 308 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield, but many semi-automatic military weapons of this calibers have been converted to caliber 7mm-08 or 270 Winchester, or wildcats were developed like a cartridge 30-06 that was only shortened at the neck, the so-called cartridge 30-06 court Cartry. That was legal.




I remember reading years ago in a Gun Digest that the laws resulted in the popularity at the time of .300 Winchester Magnum and 7 Remington Magnum in Browning BAR's used even for little roedeer. Were those popular chamberings?


grandveneur
(.400 member)
03/08/23 06:08 AM
Re: french connection

For decades, the French national caliber was the cartidge 7x64 Brenneke in bolt action rifles.

The cartridge 280 Remington was also often used in semi-automatic rifles from Remington.

Otherwise many cartridges were in use, certainly also the cartridges 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag in bolt action rifles and in semi-automatic rifles.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
03/08/23 06:13 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

For decades, the French national caliber was the cartidge 7x64 Brenneke in bolt action rifles.

The cartridge 280 Remington was also often used in semi-automatic rifles from Remington.

Otherwise many cartridges were in use, certainly also the cartridges 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag in bolt action rifles and in semi-automatic rifles.




Hard to beat the 7x64. Excellent round for French and American game.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
03/08/23 08:42 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Right-wing extremist terrorist activities in France shortly before the WWII.




I first heard about it when reading about hunting in New Caledonia in the South Pacific. One could not take a military cartridge rifle to hunt the giant Rusa stags.

I thought it might relate to some sort of independence movement in New Caledonia and restricting sources of ammunition.

Of course I later learned the same laws existed in France as well.


grandveneur
(.400 member)
04/08/23 02:42 AM
Re: french connection

All laws are valid on French territory, overseas territories also included. There are still some nowadays.

In 1939 the new gun law also applied to the colonies. One read clearly at the end of the legislation that this must also be notified to the colonial ministry.


lancaster
(.470 member)
04/08/23 04:05 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

I think such restriction are common in a number of countries. Italy and the creation of the 9x21 to replace the 9x19 comes to mind and in Latin America I think various countries have "military caliber" restrictions. My uncle was a missionary doctor in Ecuador and had to turn in his Savage over/under 20 ga/.30-30 as it was ".30 caliber" and I know a priest who's father was a retired police officer in Mexico who got into hot water for owning a 1911 .45 ACP, that one I suppose technically wasn't because it was "military" but rather because it was larger than the maximum ".38 caliber".




the australian trouble with handguns over 9 mm /. 38 is not so different. also US law that made a .500 caliber handgun legal and a .510 diameter bullet a destrutive devise like a mortar is the same kind of bs.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
04/08/23 08:31 PM
Re: french connection

Well I'm glad I can legally purchase a .45 ACP 1911 style handgun to shoot various metal silhouette competitions at my Australian military based firearms club. One comp has shooting knock down metal targets to a hundred metres (or sixty? I forget?) and also closer ranges of course. I've shot it only once. With my .38 Super. Normal not target sights. I hit a few. I thought it was pathetic. But ended up sort of average in relation to othercompetitors.

To shoot this properly a good revolver, single action trigger, with a good dot sight or scope I think.

Another metal silhouette is a rapid fire five or six knock down targets. Timed. Good fun.

The IPSC comp, not sure if a .45 is permitted?

Apologies, a bit off topic.

Firearm laws rarely make a lot of sense, whether Australia, France or the USA. Often they are designed merely to restrict,control, that is the only logic.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
04/08/23 08:35 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

All laws are valid on French territory, overseas territories also included. There are still some nowadays.

In 1939 the new gun law also applied to the colonies. One read clearly at the end of the legislation that this must also be notified to the colonial ministry.




I wondered also if these laws related to the Algerian conflict and later betrayal of French Algerian based citizens by the De Gaulle govt. The OAS, French Foreign Legion revolts etc.

Was the ban on military cartridge chambered rifles in force in Algeria on French citizens, when the rebel forces were fighting France?


grandveneur
(.400 member)
04/08/23 08:59 PM
Re: french connection

Yes, sure.

There were militias to defend localities and settlements, but they officially got their weapons from the army.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
04/08/23 10:15 PM
Re: french connection

Quote:

Yes, sure.

There were militias to defend localities and settlements, but they officially got their weapons from the army.




Also to add, IIRC Algeria was considered an overseas province of France, so didn't mainland France laws of all sorts apply to Algeria as a result?


lancaster
(.470 member)
05/08/23 06:10 AM
Re: french connection

algeria had than martial law and civilians had all kind of guns including full auto to protect them against the algerian undergrund fighters.
same like kenia in the mau-mau revolt. great britain with the so called "troubles" in northern ireland make a similar picture, if you were a unionist you had access to guns with the helping hand of the british government.


grandveneur
(.400 member)
05/08/23 06:32 AM
Re: french connection

In Algeria it was not as easy as written here, but since some family members of myself were involved in this conflict with all the atrocities, I don't want to comment further on the subject. It is a topic that is not easy to discuss in a public forum.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
05/08/23 06:58 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

In Algeria it was not as easy as written here, but since some family members of myself were involved in this conflict with all the atrocities, I don't want to comment further on the subject. It is a topic that is not easy to discuss in a public forum.




I understand.

My point was not in reference to the conflict, but rather to the normal state of laws there. In peaceful times they were exactly as law was on mainland France, is that correct?


grandveneur
(.400 member)
05/08/23 07:05 AM
Re: french connection

That is right.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
05/08/23 10:33 AM
Re: french connection

Quote:

That is right.




Merci.



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