| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 20/05/10 01:07 PM |
|
Vintage Scope
|
Saw this on EBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...%3D1&_rdc=1
Looks like it could be a Springer mounting system.
I have seen Mannlichers with similar hooks for the rear monting point bun not with the "Vienna" style front mount such as this has.
Just thought I would pass it on...
NitroX
|
| (.700 member) |
| 20/05/10 03:54 PM |
|
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Are those mounts "see through" at the bottom when mounted?
I presume it is designed for an M-S?
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 20/05/10 07:14 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
I've seen these referred to as Schnapper mounts. You compress the front 2 legs to remove it, the rear mount arm fits into a stud on the rifle. To effect windage you need to drift the dovetail the front mount clips onto. Now here's the next problem, finding or making a suitable base for the front mount. I've only seen these on Steyr made rifles so I suppose they're the original factory mount for Mannlichers.
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 20/05/10 09:25 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
This is the classic (Vienna style) Kahles scope and mounts for the early Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. I have this setup on my MS 03, and is known as a full Austrian rig. The mounts are see-thru and the price is right. The only negative is the single post reticle, 3 post or crosshairs is preferred.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/05/10 11:35 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Don--
Can you tell if this setup would work with the mounts on my Oigee-scoped 03? Mine has the dovetail for the Springer mount set in a ring on the rear of the barrel. I'm trying to figure out a way to fit a better scope without altering the gun.
Best,
Malcolm
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 21/05/10 06:11 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Malcolm: If you could put up a photo of what you now have, it would be of help.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/05/10 08:36 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Hi Don--
Here's a close picture of the existing setup--there are more pictures on the Mannlicher forum in the thread titled "Two uncommon Mannlichers," and I can certainly take and send more. Thanks for your quick reply--
Malcolm
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 22/05/10 08:45 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Malcolm: I'm not clear on why you would want to change the Oigee scope. Are there optical problems or cracked lenses? I have the same Oigee on my MS 08 and it's great. The mounting system you have does not appear to be factory, but certainly period done. You will be entering a world of pain and expense trying to refit a different scope.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/05/10 10:57 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Hi Don--
Thanks again for getting back to me. My Oigee is undamaged and works reasonably well, although it could stand a good cleaning/resealing (it's really dirty inside). The main dilemmas I have with it are the reticle (a really enormous single picket) and general optical clarity--my ten-year-old likens it to a funhouse mirror, which is a pretty good analogy. But I like to hunt with the gun, and would like to be able to use a more modern optic if possible.
However, I don't want to alter anything permanently because it is for sure a factory mount and scope, which at least in the States is nearly impossible to come by. I'm actually glad you mentioned this, because I've been trying to figure out the original factory mounting options, for my own edification. I have three period ads, all American, that depict factory-offered scopes--two of them (1930 Sequoia Importing and 1939 Stoeger) show scope mounts exactly like mine, with the front pincer mount attached to the rear of the barrel--the Sequoia ad even specifies that the scope is a 4x Oigee. The third ad, a 1929 Abercrombie and Fitch catalog, shows an earlier carbine (round-knob grip) with a mount attached to the front action ring, as on your 1908.
Interestingly, my rifle was sold new through A&F in November, 1929 (it has a 1928 proof code), listed in their ledger as a "1903 with telescope," though obviously it's not the same pattern as the rifle shown in their catalog of the same year. The front base is a sweat-on ring on the rifle barrel stamped with the gun's serial #, in identical font to what appears elsewhere. The rear dogleg mount on the Oigee scope also bears the correct serial #, also in the same font.
I'm really curious to know when Steyr moved the front dovetail from the action ring forward to the barrel; if they did so universally, or only for the American market; and whether they ever used factory claw mounts on the pre-war guns. If you have the answers or even an opinion, I'd love to learn more! Also, if you have the time, could you post a picture of the dovetailed receiver on your 1908? I'd like to see how the factory worked the script around such an example (I've seen a number of retro-fitted claw bases, which obviously resulted in mucked up lettering).
Anyway--I may wind up buying the e-bay scope just on a gamble that the Springer bases might be adaptable to my rifle. If the Kahles has better optics than my Oigee, I could use the whole setup as is (although I think the rear dog-leg will have to be positioned farther back), or possibly mate the bases up to something different down the road. I know, I know--that way lies madness...
Thanks again, and sorry for the windy explanation!
Best,
Malcolm
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 22/05/10 12:24 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
I would probably choose to refurbish the Oigee thus giving you the option of changing the reticle and save some bucks as well and even more important, keep originality. I think the rifle looks great just the way it is. JMO
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/05/10 01:14 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
I definitely love the original look--Steyr obviously scaled the scope to the gun--and plan to refurbish the Oigee at some point. I've queried a couple of places, and so far haven't been able to find an outfit willing to take it on, at least not in the U.S. (incl. Parsons). If anyone has a suggestion, I'll sure look into it. Don, have you seen a rifle mounted the way mine is in the UK or Europe? I'm really curious...
Thanks--
Malcolm
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 22/05/10 10:03 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Photos of my MS's are still up on the Mannlicher Forum if you care to see them, thread dated 15-12-07. I have not seen another rifle with the exact same mounts as yours. I've seen the barrel ring but with the swing mount. BTW, I'm located in the US.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 23/05/10 12:01 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Oops--I assumed Essex, England. Do you know of a good scope service that might be an option?
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/05/10 02:46 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Here is the same "Wiener Schnaeppermontage" = Vienna snapper mount factory installed with a Kahles "Heliavier" scope on my M1924 .30-06 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, a "leftover Sequoia model". It also has the same serial number, 299, like the rifle. IMHO these mounts, offered as a factory option by Steyr pre-WW2, were mostly handmade and -fitted, as they all differ in details. So there is little hope to find a scope and tops that exactly fit existing bases.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 23/05/10 03:00 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Thanks for the picture and input, Kuduae--how often do you encounter this mount in Europe? Any idea when it replaced the dovetailed receiver ring?
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/05/10 05:48 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Here is another such mount and scope for the M-Sch, this time an earlier small 22mm diam. Kahles "Mignon 4x" scope with a nearly complete mount. It still awaits being mounted on my M1900.
About the popularity of the Vienna-style snapper mounts in "Europe": I will never call them "Springer mounts", as Springer's Erben was only one of the many gunsmithes in Austria who fitted these, and those three-legged ones on the M-Sch were certainly not made by Springer!These mounts were quite popular in Austria. You find them not only on Mannlichers, but also on many break-open rifles of Austrian provenance. Germans on the other hand from the start preferred their German scopes mounted by german gunsmithes with their familiar claw mounts. So you rarely encounter M-Sch rifles mounted with Vienna snapper mounts in Germany.In Germany from time to time you encounter side mounts too, the pre-WW1 Greifelt/Suhl one looking exactly like the later American Griffin&Howe.
Though Steyr dovetailed their "factory" bases into a saddle soldered on the barrel shank, many individual gunsmithes cut the dovetails for upto 4x scopes directly into the receiver ring, both for snapper or claw mounts. They continued to do so until about 1960.Others used saddles soldered either over the receiver ring or the barrel, so the kind of scope mounting is completely unsuitable for dating!
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/05/10 06:16 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
BTW Dons, I have never seen the post-WW2 Steyr side-swing mount on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer in Germany! Other, ocourse, the even later swing mount for the plastic magazine so-called Steyr-Mannlicher. I don't rmember the correct designation for these rifles, as I don't care.
| Kapu |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/05/10 07:27 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
one more on the row. My M-S with similar mounting, at this time fitted with W. Gerard scope
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/05/10 11:27 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Hi Kapu--
Thanks for posting. I went ahead and offered $150 U.S. to the seller of the Kahles scope that prompted this thread, and to my surprise he accepted--so I guess I'll get the chance to see whether it will mate to my rifle or not, and with what degree of effort. I'll update as I know more--
Best,
Malcolm
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 28/06/10 02:48 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Okay, finally got the Kahles through customs (stalled in NY for 3 weeks). Good news: the optics are much, much better than those on the original Oigee.
And for the bad: there's no way this scope will work on my rifle by trying to mate its existing mounts up to the existing bases. The trouble is eye-relief--the Kahles is a dainty little scope, and it's got to be positioned just-so--the front pincer was clearly mounted originally to the receiver ring, which would put the ocular far enough back to work. Move it ahead of the receiver, and no dice.
Now I understand those offset mounts like Kuduae has on the scope for his M1900...
So back to square one. The amazing clarity of this 1930-vintage Kahles makes me wonder if the Oigee doesn't simply have a problem that might be fixed by refurbishing--my experience with scopes of this era is limited is to the two I have in hand. Dons, if you read this, what's your Oigee like for clarity? Mine is really fish-eyed, with this crazy distortion around the perimeter. Is this typical, or indicative of a problem? If anyone has any insight, please help! Also, recommendations for a scope doctor (Parsons already bowed out) would be greatly appreciated...
Best,
Malcolm
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 28/06/10 09:18 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
In my collection I have 15 period scoped rifles that included Kahles, Oigee, Zeiss, and Hensoldt. The Oigee is equal to any of these. The fisheye you describe leads me to believe that one of the small internal lenses is incorrectly installed. It may have been taken apart at some point in it's history and not put back together the right way. I don't know who is currently refurbishing these vintage scopes.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/06/10 10:39 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Quote:
If anyone has any insight, please help! Also, recommendations for a scope doctor (Parsons already bowed out) would be greatly appreciated...
Best,
Malcolm
Hi Malco,
Try to contact Schmidt & Bender, www.schmidtbender.com info@schmidtbender.com . Perhaps they can arrange to have your scope repaired here in Germany. At least here they are sometimes doing such things.
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 28/06/10 11:07 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Thanks for the replies--apparently there's a guy about two hours north of me in Montana who does repairs for Deutsche Optik. His business is called Mountain Optics. I'm going to see if he can fix/service the scope, and possibly install a different reticle to replace the oversized picket. I like the reticle in the Kahles, maybe I'll try to have him duplicate that. I'll update as I learn more, and remain open to suggestions!
| malco |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/09/10 01:39 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Okay, at long last an update. Got the original Oigee back from Mountain Optics. The scope had indeed been taken apart at some foggy point in the past, and the lenses were re-installed backwards, hence the fisheye. The original crosshairs were hacked out, and the single picket installed. Mountain Optics completely overhauled the scope, cleaned and revamped the focus and elevation adjustments, and installed a new set of wire crosshairs. Everything now seems optically and mechanically correct, with normal clarity through the lenses. The crosshairs are slightly cockeyed, though in fairness Dan at MO told me that the original reticle was pretty crudely extracted and that it might be tough to achieve perfection as a result. I'm going to try to sight in and shoot today, and will post a range report--thanks to everyone for advice and insight, I love this website!
Best,
Malcolm
| heers68 |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/03/11 01:00 AM |
|
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Malcolm, Very interesting thread,can't wait to hear an update on your range experience! I have had many different Prewar German scopes on different rifles(Zeiss,M.S.W Wetzlar,Hensoldt,etc.) and have been impressed with there optics,better than some of my "modern" scopes! I have allways wanted a pre-war MS and will continue searching for the "right" one (with correct scope and mounts) not easy! Kevin.
| Hubert |
| (.224 member) |
| 09/01/14 10:57 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
I have just acquired a complete set of these Vienna mounts on a Kahles Mignon 4x.That includes the front and rear lower bases.
My problem is my gunsmith has never seen these mounts before .
His questions
A-Is there any tension between the front and rear bases when installing the scope on the rifle ?
B-That is , does the scope require a firm push to click on to the front base?
C_Or does the scope click on without tension ? That is , clicks on freely .
D- Uninstalled the front base has a small amount of front and back movement .It seems to me that a tension is required to take up this movement after mounting on a rifle .
E-Thus is the front lower base worn ?Or is this movement normal in uninstalled mount ?
This is a lovely little scope and mounts but its useless if I cant have it mounted correctly .
Any help would be greatly appreciated .
Thanks
| kamilaroi |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/01/14 07:39 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Obviously you are not dealing with a gunsmith but a mere backyard plumber.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 09/01/14 09:38 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
hard to say without having the parts in the hand but if mounted the parts have to grip perfect into each other. it means when set the scope on the mount it have to be like they suck into each other.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 10/01/14 08:06 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Hi Hubert,
Sorry but I can't offer any advice on the Vienna mount system as I've never handled a rifle with that type of mount.
Usually one of the most important things with any QD scope mount system, is to ensure that there is no stress or flexing of the scope or mounts when the scope is installed.
The mounts should snap into place freely with no looseness or movement, but at the same time with no springing or flexing of the scope tube or the mounts.
It looks like "kuduae" might be able to help with the information you need.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/01/14 07:00 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Quote:
It looks like "kuduae" might be able to help with the information you need.
4seventy, thanks for your excessive and unjustified confidence in my limited knowledge!
Hubert, I will try to answer your questions anyhow:
I have just acquired a complete set of these Vienna mounts on a Kahles Mignon 4x.That includes the front and rear lower bases.
Rear lower base? Please post or send photos of your mounts. pm sent. What gun do you want to mount it on?
A-Is there any tension between the front and rear bases when installing the scope on the rifle ?
No tension, just a snug fit between front base and rear anchor screw (on a Mannlicher-Schoenauer)
B-That is , does the scope require a firm push to click on to the front base?
No, just the resistance of the spring-loaded locking levers = Schnäpper has to be overcome.
C_Or does the scope click on without tension ? That is , clicks on freely .
See B
D- Uninstalled the front base has a small amount of front and back movement .It seems to me that a tension is required to take up this movement after mounting on a rifle .
No tension, just a snug handfitting front-rear.
E-Thus is the front lower base worn ?Or is this movement normal in uninstalled mount ?
Most likely not worn. As in most Wiener Schnäppermontagen the only windage adjustment is by driving the front base sideways, using hammer and brass punch, there must be some play here.
I have not yet mounted my Kahles Mignon 4x shown in this thread above, but I intend to do so on my M1900 Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
This is the way I figured out so far: First I will soft solder the front base to the barrel reinforce. Next I will use my Tasco boresighter to determine the exact position of the "rear base". On Mannlicher-Schoenauers this "rear base" is merely a large-headed screw in the left top of the receiver bridge (ok, I know this bridge is split). The dog-legged rear top of the Schnäpper mount goes under this screwhead with it's pronged lower end. I will place this screw just slightly forward of the indicated position and lock it so that the prongs just slide under it's head. Doing so will allow me to file out the cutout between the prongs of the rear top so that the scope is held snug, but without tension, between front and rear bases. On these Vienna style mounts the recoil stress is taken by the front mount only.
| Hubert |
| (.224 member) |
| 11/01/14 02:03 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Thanks ,Kuduae,
The important points you make are
A-Snug fit ( to avoid movement of the scope ) and
B-Rear base slightly out of position initially so that careful filing can produce a snug fit , no movement .
C-Yes . Recoil taken by front mount .
All that is very helpful .
The rifle is a Zi-di ( Ziegenhahn and Diem ) in 5.6x35 (hornet )
Regretfully the rear action ring will have to be machined its not uncommon to do that I notice .
Thanks to all who responded .
I shall now attempt to upload photographs for the first time .
[image] http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag219/miers4543/2014-01-11014_zps53083077.jpg[/image]
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 11/01/14 07:47 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
| Hubert |
| (.224 member) |
| 11/01/14 08:36 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
Dear Lancaster
Thank you so much. I have tried for hours to do this .
There are 3 more of this kind .
I shall try again tomorrow .
Thank you
Robert
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/01/14 08:29 AM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
As Lancaster already has posted your photos, I can only add: Yes, you can install these mounts on a Zi-Di rifle 5.6x35R Vierling aka .22 WCF rifle. You have to machine or file dovetail slots into receiver ring and -bridge. I would prefer to file on b at the rear base for fitting. If something goes wrong a replacement rear base can be easily filed from bar stock, the ring not so. But a warning: As I wrote, windage adjustment on this scope-mount combination is only by drifting the bases left/right. This may be time and ammo consuming.
| Old_Glass |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/02/15 05:17 PM |
|
Re: Vintage Scope
|
I have the impression that the Wiener Schnappermontage is seen on some English rifles. Perhaps one of the makers there had a liking for them. Greener set up a .280 Ross with a Zeiss prismatic using these mounts, which a Lt. Greener of the same family used for sniping in WWI. I have a Goerz Pernox 3.5x with these mounts. I understand this system was used by the A-H army in WWI for sniping with the Steyr M95, usually with the Kahles Mignon.