| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 13/02/19 08:42 AM |
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The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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You heavy nitro big bore {.400 PLUS} gurus, some questions...
Who bought such guns? How popular were they?
And...why?
Was it really that Mausers in the heavier calibers weren't trustworthy and doubles were too expensive?
Curious why a guy in the 1890-1920 era would put up the substantial money for a buffalo/elephant gun in a single shot caliber when other guns were available.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 13/02/19 02:04 PM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Can't say specifically, but to buy a 'gun for the continent' meant buying, if one's 'purse' could afford it, "a good gun, in case complete".
That's just the way it was.
If going there, "one MUST be armed appropriately, old chap!"
just a guess
as to the numbers, no idea.
I suspect John Taylor wasn't the only one supporting his "habit" with ivory & horns.
Back in 1861, Forsyth noted, if not wanting the expense of a properly regulated double, "have a good single made instead, along these principals." I suspect having a good single or two, might have been popular and most certainly cheaper than a double and no regulation problems.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 13/02/19 03:05 PM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Quote:
Curious why a guy in the 1890-1920 era would put up the substantial money for a buffalo/elephant gun in a single shot caliber when other guns were available.
Because even then a true sporting gentleman knew that the proper way to hunt is with a fine single shot rifle.
Actually, prior to 1910 or so, there weren't many cartridges for magazine rifles that were truly capable of tackling dangerous game.
The big rimmed nitro cartridges were largely an evolution of their black powder predecessors. That meant that one would have to choose either a double rifle or a single shot rifle to be able to make use of the exceptional power the new cordite cartridges offered.
Now, after the introduction of the 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 425 W.R. etc, the popularity of big bore falling block single shots pretty much died.
The truth is, the British nitro single shot was then and is today a very rare rifle, the totals of most maker's production not exceeding a few hundred examples.
| Ripp |
| (.577 member) |
| 14/02/19 02:24 PM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Quote:Quote:
Curious why a guy in the 1890-1920 era would put up the substantial money for a buffalo/elephant gun in a single shot caliber when other guns were available.
Because even then a true sporting gentleman knew that the proper way to hunt is with a fine single shot rifle.
Actually, prior to 1910 or so, there weren't many cartridges for magazine rifles that were truly capable of tackling dangerous game.
The big rimmed nitro cartridges were largely an evolution of their black powder predecessors. That meant that one would have to choose either a double rifle or a single shot rifle to be able to make use of the exceptional power the new cordite cartridges offered.
Now, after the introduction of the 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 425 W.R. etc, the popularity of big bore falling block single shots pretty much died.
The truth is, the British nitro single shot was then and is today a very rare rifle, the totals of most maker's production not exceeding a few hundred examples.
Good Info..
Thank you
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/02/19 02:57 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Quote:Quote:
Curious why a guy in the 1890-1920 era would put up the substantial money for a buffalo/elephant gun in a single shot caliber when other guns were available.
Because even then a true sporting gentleman knew that the proper way to hunt is with a fine single shot rifle.
Actually, prior to 1910 or so, there weren't many cartridges for magazine rifles that were truly capable of tackling dangerous game.
........
True that; the old writings from the 1890’s and early 1900’s are replete with stories of cemeteries and hospitals containing nimrods that were all excited to use the “new” Cordite and small bore bolt guns like the .303 or 6.5’s and their flat trajectory on dangerous game. They “Killed like lightning”...until they didn’t.
In the 1800’s India, hunting with black powder rifles took a .500 or larger for dangerous game. (.500 was a popular Tiger caliber in India).
African “Big 5” back then required BIG black powder rifles, .577 3” and bigger.
The single shot and double rifle were the only types available in those large bores. Yes, there are rare historical accounts of some Winchester lever actions like the .50-95 being used on cats......& thin skinned game.
A “brace” of single shots plus a reliable bearer/loader were the less expensive alternative to a double rifle until about ~1905, the time the big rimless Cordite cartridges were being developed to fit in a 98 Mauser.
Once the over .400 sized Nitro repeaters appeared, the sales of large bore single shot rifles like the relatively contemporary 1902 Webley pretty much fizzled out.
- Mike
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 15/02/19 06:49 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Thanks guys.
Interesting discussion.
I have to say that there is something about the perceived simplicity of a classic British single shot that is very appealing. Very much so.
Having said that, when guns in calibers even like 9.3x62 appeared as early as they did, I can see why the Nitro SS drifted into relative obscurity as quickly it did.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 15/02/19 07:25 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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The farmer's gun, 9.3x62 - in 1911?. 286gr. Solid and soft, @
2,175fps.
It wasn't until the 1920's that the ballistics were improved
and according to John Taylor, poacher extraordinaire, the
improvement wasn't needed. The original ballistics worked very
well, thank you, very much.
The 1920's, 30's, etc, 9.3x57 on a model 94 or model 96 action
easily duplicates the original 9.3x62 ballistics, btw, with
today's powders.
With sized down .375" 300gr. Hornady RN's (to .366") I
averaged 2,170fps with 0.0000" to .0002" (2/10,000") case web
expansion.
So - yes, early in the 1900's, bolt action Mausers kinda took
over the more affordable big game rifle market- but, it wasn't
until the 1950's that there was a bolt action replacement for
the .450 NE - correct?(wildcats, of course were available)
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 15/02/19 09:12 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Quote:
...but, it wasn't
until the 1950's that there was a bolt action replacement for
the .450 NE - correct?(wildcats, of course were available)
Exactly!
Which I find very odd.
The 450 3-1/4" NE was so common and so capable in singles and doubles that it is incredible that a rimless equivalent never emerged until mid century.
Of course, the many 400 class options all did the job very well and in a repeater I guess maybe even better than the 450 with one or two shots, but then again, the 500 Jeffery (& Schuler) and the 505 Gibbs were developed by 1920 and 1911 respectively.
Why the flyover on developing a 450 rimless?
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/02/19 09:59 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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Schuler developed the 11.2x72 (.440 bullet) in the early 1920’s, past that maybe the Brits, Germans and USA were too busy with 2 World Wars a Depression, and recovering from them between 1917 and 1950 to worry about a .450 bolt gun?
Then there was the .450 ban in India and the Sudan up to I think the late 1920’s and India was a much bigger market than Africa by all accounts.
- Mike
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 16/02/19 09:40 AM |
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Re: The Single Shot 1890-1920: Why?
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True about the Schuler - pretty close to a .450
I think we mistakenly believe that the 450 "ban" was an all out ban on .450 ammunition but it really was a restriction of import.
Sportsmen could still bring .450 ammunition into India and British Africa but were limited to something like 200rds per year. There was still 450 ammo being loaded at the time.
Still, one would think that with the advent of the 470, 475s and 500/465 as a measure to circumvent the restriction (and sell a lot of new rifles as well) there would at least have been some sort of production rimless 450 class cartridge to come out of England.
Perhaps part of the allure of the sporting single shot rifle is that they mostly predated the advent of the repeating rifle, namely the Mauser '98.
Good single shots, even Martinis, just have a different era feel to them while there isn't much between a prewar Mauser sporter and one made to that pattern today.