| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 23/03/18 11:46 PM |
Heeren system
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I am not familiar with the Heeren system and I would like to learn more about it.
I understand from previous posts, mainly originating from Kuduae, that the Heeren action was invented by Count Arturo Massa y Heeren, in 1880; patent was subsequently given to Nagel & Menz in Baden-Baden and actions made by the Suhl guntrade, first by Stephan Heym jr., then by his son Max Heym. After the patent expired the Heyms, father and son, made the rifles under their own name. Max Heym had the word "Heeren" protected as a trademark. Max Heym continued up to 1938, when he sold out to Ernst Kerner & Co. because of old age. Kerner continued to make Heeren actions and rifles until 1945.
My questions are :
• Who developped the side safety that was not visible on the initial actions, and from which year dates back this development ?
o Early Nagel & Menz action without side safety:
o Later action with side safety :
• When did the 1880 patent expired ?
• Until when was the Heeren trademark protected ?
• Where post-WW2 Glaser Heeren actions manufactured by Omega in Switzerland standard Heeren actions or was the mechanism modified by Glaser ?
• Who - apart maybe, Hartmann & Weiss and the Ferlach guntrade, manufactures Heeren actions nowadays ?
• Heeren rifles were to my knowledge originally available in 6,5 , 7 and 8 mm European calibres mostly (and by extension now in their US equivalent) but not in bigger calibres such as 9,3 (or US equivalent nowadays). Should this mean that the Heeren falling block action is not adapted to them ?
• Are there any good books or publications, in English or in German, on the Heeren system ?
Thank you in advance for any information shared.
Louis
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/03/18 04:28 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/heerenstutzen.html
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/03/18 06:00 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thank you Chapmen, I already visit very often this much informative website.
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/03/18 06:35 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Do you have more info about the rifle in the first pic?
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/03/18 08:33 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Louis. a löt of questions, but not easy to answer.
• Who developped the side safety that was not visible on the initial actions, and from which year dates back this development ?
No exact date known, but a 1920s ad by Max Heym shows it.
• When did the 1880 patent expired ?
As the Heeren DRP # 13250 was applied for on July 11, 1880, it was in the public domain 20 years later, July 12, 1900
• Until when was the Heeren trademark protected ?
1945
• Where post-WW2 Glaser Heeren actions manufactured by Omega in Switzerland standard Heeren actions or was the mechanism modified by Glaser ?
Not the internal mechanism, but the Omega actions are longer, that is, the "receiver ring" is 30 mm instead of the Suhl 18 mm.
• Who - apart maybe, Hartmann & Weiss and the Ferlach guntrade, manufactures Heeren actions nowadays ?
I don't know, but post-WW2 makers were Orea and Furtschegger too, besides Outschar. They made xhanges, F.i. coil- instead of leaf springs. Outschar slghtly slanted the breechblock by about 3 degrees to prevent the infamous binding at pressures over 3000 bar.
• Heeren rifles were to my knowledge originally available in 6,5 , 7 and 8 mm European calibres mostly (and by extension now in their US equivalent) but not in bigger calibres such as 9,3 (or US equivalent nowadays). Should this mean that the Heeren falling block action is not adapted to them ?
There is no earthly reason why a Heeren action rifle could not be built in 9.3x74R or .450-400. But Heeren rifles were usually meant as short, light stalking rifles for Alpine mountain use on roe, chamois and red deer. Medium or large bores are less suited for such use. Yes, I have once seen a Heeren rifle in 10.3x60R, a nitro load of the .450-400 2 3/8" Express. Hunting law of the Swiss canton Graubünden/Grischun prescribes single shot rifles so chambered.
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/03/18 10:27 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Kuduae, thank you very much, this is most useful as usual.
Chapmen, I found the photo on the internet at http://www.tircollection.com/t14074-culasse-a-bloc-tombant ; several photos of the same rifle available in an old post dating back to 2013.
Louis
| DORLEAC |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/03/18 11:42 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Louis,
We have built some Heeren stalking rifles and it's a system that has always fascinated us.
For me the best actions are those produced by Max HEYM circa 1920s, both the most elegant and the most achieved systems.
As I know you understand the French language you will not have a hard time following the explanations on the pictures below.
At our next meeting at the workshop I will show you some rifles of that kind.
All the best.
DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 25/03/18 12:09 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Dear Joël
Thank you very much for your input.
I look forward to seeing you soon at Perpignan.
Best regards.
Louis
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 25/03/18 03:03 AM |
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Thanks Joel!
Cheers
Tinker
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/03/18 05:32 AM |
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Yes indeed- thank you Joel. As always, those rifles are superb!
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/03/18 08:58 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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an real early one, maybe made for military trials:
(found in an french forum some years ago, tried to contact the owner for better pics, but did not get response)
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/03/18 09:02 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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The Nagel&Menz shop in Baden-Baden 1905:
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 25/03/18 11:57 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thank you Chapmen for these photos - interesting stock, and post card. Here after is also the link for an early Nagel & Menz 'Strassburg & Baden' in 8x57JR advertised on the French website Naturabuy https://www.naturabuy.fr/HEEREN-Carabine-coup-calibre-8-57-JR-item-3844275.html and auctioned for the starting price of Euro 6500 (!); I think that a similar rifle - maybe that one, was sold for much lesser some years ago in Germany and photos had been posted on the Forum. Louis
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 26/03/18 04:45 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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here are the pics
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/03/18 05:14 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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time to start an Heeren thread ......
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 26/03/18 05:33 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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just startet here
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/03/18 07:21 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Joel, thanks for the great photos, a very interesting and unusual action. Very nice rifles as well.
Waidmannsheil.
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/18 04:06 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thats the man behind the Heeren-action, Conde Christian Arturo Juan Antonio de Heeren y Massa, 1905 in the age of 61 years:
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/18 04:16 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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1907 Nagel&Menz ad for the Heeren rifle:
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/18 04:19 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/18 04:22 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 28/03/18 07:25 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thank you very much, Chapmen.
Best regards.
Louis
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/18 07:31 PM |
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Yes, very interesting, especially the patent drawings. Thanks for posting
Waidmannsheil.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 28/03/18 11:03 PM |
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simple as it is you wonder that the action was not used in great amount for single shots
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/03/18 03:12 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Quote:
Yes, very interesting, especially the patent drawings.
Waidmannsheil.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US239496
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/05/20 10:34 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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I acquired this Heeren falling-block rifle in 2018; it is by conception a German-Austrian crossbred: German as it was assembled in Hamburg by rifle maker F. Cieplik and proofed in Germany in 1969, and Austrian as the Heeren action was manufactured in Graz by August Orechowsky:
• There is not much information available online about rifle maker Cieplik in Hamburg and the only mention to him that I found is in an article about rifle makers Hartmann & Weiss https://www.hartmannandweiss.com/presse/10-01-ss.pdf into which one can read that “ Gerhard Hartmann was 15 (comment: in the mid-50’s) when he found Cieplik, a small hometown gunmaker in Hamburg to take him on for a four-year apprenticeship”. Any additional information on Cieplik would therefore be much welcomed.
• Thanks to Axel Eichendorff - Kuduae, there is more data available about August Orechowsky. Kuduae shared the following in Waidmannsheil (Winter 2013): “In 1947 the Austrian gunmaker August Orechowsky in Graz, trademark “Orea”, started to assemble the tooling necessary for making Heeren actions. From 1950 to 1970 Orea made about 350 Heeren rifles. Actions were also sold to Glaser in Zürich (after their supply of Omega actions was used up), Schwarz in Bern, Swiss also, and v.Hofe/Gehmann in Karlsruhe, Germany. Orea incorporated some improvements to the basic Heeren action, like a redesigned extractor and coil springs”.
This Heeren rifle is chambered for the versatile 7x65R calibre; she is to my personal taste an elegant stutzen engraved in the ‘eichenlaub’ style. Total length is 105 cm for a 65 cm barrel and weight is 3,4kg unscoped / 4 kg scoped.
Top line, from buttstock to front sight:
The Heeren action:
Additional markings under the wood line:
The scope is a Karl Kaps model Variabel 1,5-7:
When I got it one of the turrets was blocked, probably by dessicated lubricant, and after exhausting all means to unblock it without potential damage I sent it back to the factory in Asslar/Wetzlar (Germany) https://www.kaps-optik.de/en/sport-optics.html . They got it back in order and, what a great family-managed company that values customer relationship, refused to charge me; I therefore sent some wine to Herr Holger Kaps in order to thank him for his gesture.
With RWS factory ammunition, the KS 10,5 grams / 162 grains ammunition is the best match regarding accuracy:
I plan to take this Heeren rifle out for roe buck stalking this year, hopefully from early June 2020 if lockdown lifted by then!
Louis
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/05/20 02:41 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Very nice, Louis - it should be a smasher for them. What load/bullet weight will you use for roe deer?
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 03/05/20 09:43 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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The workmanship & wood on this rifle is magnificent to say the least Louis!
While personally not my cup of tea (compared to you 9.3x74 example) I think it's more so the engraving that sways me slightly on this one.
Please don't get me wrong here mate, it is in a fantastic caliber & more than capable of taking out anything that get in its way!
Wonderful experience that you had with the scope & its maker, no wonder you sent him a fine bottle of wine!
But mostly it will be great rifle to carry through alpine areas with its full stock!
Looking forward to her range & hunting report
Keep us informed on both
93x64mm
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/05/20 02:40 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Louis, magnificent rifle for sure with a superb piece of wood. Fantastic workmanship and in a great cartridge.
Great to hear about the scope as well, its service like that that makes you want to buy more of their product. I have spoken to them on the phone in the past and found them to be extremely helpful. They also have an interesting product range.
The Omega actions that you mention, is that the Omega watch company that you are referring too.
Matt.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 03/05/20 03:13 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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well thats such a fine rifle I would worry to take it out of the safe, especially the wood is an eye catcher from the distance.
I would hesitate to take it into the moutains for fearing it will be scratched.
if you order such a rifle today you can guess by the very high price how valuable this piece was also in the days when it leave the shop the first time. good it overcome the times in such fantastic condition and end in your hands
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/05/20 12:53 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Daryl, 9,3x64, Waidmannsheil and Lancaster, thank you for your comments; below are, in bulk, answers to your questions:
- I do not reload; I must confess this almost capital sin! I have reloaded ages ago, when a teenager and young adult, and I have still most of my kit stored in a box at home. I stopped reloading when I joined the military as I never spent much time at home and the situation is pretty much the same now that I work on commercial projects. I am not sure I will start reloading one day as achieving good results requires a wealth of experience gained from time spent on the reloading bench; I therefore buy what I guess to be among the best on the commercial ammunition market i.e. RWS and Dorfner (the later for Mannlicher Schoenauer calibres) in order to put as much chances as possible on my side when hunting.
- This Heeren gives best results with RWS KS 10,5 grams / grains ammunition and is pretty accurate with 3-shot groupings below half-an-inch at 100 m and by c. an inch at 200 m. When I have a new rifle, I usually buy one box of every different type of ammo sold by RWS in that calibre and test the rifle on the range; from there I select which one is the best match between barrel and ammo. Result is often an issue of rifle twist but not only; kipplauf in 7x65R and Heeren in 7x65R have the same twist however the first one shots best with KS 8 grams and the second one with KS 10,5 grams. Don’t ask me why
! - Heeren actions made by the watch-maker Omega in Switzerland – From Axel / Kuduae in “Waidmannsheil” (Winter 2013): “ In 1947 the well-renowned Swiss gun shop of Wilhelm Glaser in Zürich, formerly a big customer of Heym and Kerner, took up making their own Heeren rifles. They had their actions machined by the Omega, Louis Brandt & Frere S.A. watch company in Biel, Switzerland and fitted, barrelled, stocked and finished them in their own shop. They also sold some actions in the white to other gun makers. All in all, 240 Omega- Glaser actions were made”.
- Hunting rifles are made for hunting, they must be treated with as much care as possible while on the field, and scratches can be dealt with when re-oiling the wood at the end of the season.
Louis
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/05/20 02:10 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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One miss above, corrected hereafter: RWS KS 10,5 grams is 162 grains.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 04/05/20 03:43 AM |
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That is quite excellent accuracy, even for well "built" (worked up) handloads, Louis.
The 7x65R is quite an accurate ctg. it seems. A friend of mine has an O/U with 16 bore barrel on top.
The 7x65R shoots sub 1/2" @ 100 meters with 160gr. TSX Barnes mono bullets.
Seems to me,(IIRC) they were doing better than 2,700fps - or very close to it.
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/05/20 07:07 AM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thanks Louis, very amazing that Omega built actions. I have several books on Omega and have never seen that mentioned before.
Matt.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/05/20 02:55 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Very nice rifle. That "schnabel" without any bayern -style butt stock looks in my eyes a little strange.
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/05/20 06:27 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thank you Igorrock; the combination of a stock with German cheekpiece and "schnabel" fore-end is indeed not common but can be found from time to time as on some Mauser Model S "stutzen" rifles (some examples on Jon Speed's book) or even earlier, see the below advert dated 1908.
Louis
| paradox_ |
| (.375 member) |
| 05/05/20 02:33 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thats a fine rifle Louis, looking forward to seeing it and the Roebuck together !!
Best
Eric
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 07/05/20 06:29 PM |
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Re: Heeren system
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Thank you very much, Paradox!
Louis