| TH44 |
| (.375 member) |
| 23/06/15 07:48 AM |
Westley Richards Carbine
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Hi Guys - I bought this last week at Holt's auction for what I considered a very good price, as I do not have an example in my collection and I love carbines
It is a plain carbine, completely stripped of all finish and possibly varnish on the stock
It is nowhere near as good as Huvius' excellent example
I believe it is the 1869 model, in .450 No. 1 Carbine - 1 1/2" (about the same as .45-75 WCF)
With a barrel length of 21 3/4" and just 7 lbs weight it is a handy little carbine
I have never been a fan of Martini types and considered these quite ugly but having it in hand I am now completely converted and think it very attractive
very plain
52 bore for .450
Early serial number?
Comments and advice welcome
TH44
| MikeRowe |
| (.333 member) |
| 23/06/15 11:09 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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That is a nice little carbine. I believe the load is 55 grains of black and a 380 grain paper wrapped bullet. They do feel like they have some oomph when you shoot them. The little cartridge was quite a popular sporting round in it's day.
| Bidgee |
| (.375 member) |
| 23/06/15 01:04 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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What a nice pick up, I would be more than happy to have it in my safe.
You will be able to take it out and use it and not worry that it might be getting bumped or scratched and just enjoy shooting it.
Cheers
| greenshoots |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/06/15 03:55 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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very nice
greenshoots
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 23/06/15 05:22 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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Couldn't agree more Bidgee!
I wonder what Nitro load you could use in this one besides Trailboss that would equal a BP load?
Generally not a real fan of Martinis myself, but this one I do like!
Would be a kicker for sure - a good slip on pad to increase the length of pull & she'd be ready to go!
Great pick up TH44!
Cheers
93x64mm
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 23/06/15 10:28 PM |
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If you think you have warmed up to these old Westleys just handling it, wait until you take it out to shoot!
I have never owned a carbine version but it should still be a reasonably powerful round yet fun to shoot all day.
| m4220 |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/06/15 12:00 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/06/15 12:43 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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A nitro-for-black load for the .45/60 Winchester would suffice for a smokeless load, I am sure.
The .45/60 case is 1.9" & shot normally bullets from 260gr. to about 340gr. when handloaded - (merely an assumption of mine due to the 340/350gr. bullets available for the .45/75 ctg.)
I'll get my brothers data for his Winchester M1876 .45/60 rifle, with which we worked up loads to include 345gr. bullets - BP equivalent in TB, H4198 and IMR3031 as well as full power with 4198 and 3031 powders for that weak action'd lever gun.
The best, most accurate loads in it were the cast 300's and 345's at around 1,800fps, but it shot reasonably well down in the 1,200fps to 1,300fps range was well.
Trail Boss actually shot fairly well, however was VERY slow.
I'll attempt to get that data today- have to go over there to deliver his new fly rod.
I suspect a BP load in that Westley Richards might make around 1,150fps to 1,200fps with a 380gr.bullet - maybe 1,250fps with C&H #6 rifle powder. The equivalent would be a case full of Swiss 1 1/2.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/06/15 08:16 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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OK- found some loads to get you going. Since Mike noted the factory load being 55gr. BP and a 380gr. bullets, these should give you an idea. Case used below were 1.8" and 1.90" long, being a shortened .45/70 straight sided hull, all primers, standard large rifle.
: 345gr. Cast bullet (#457122 HP Lyman) 25:1 tin/lead, SPG lube - all bands in the case 60.0gr. 2F GOEX - av. 1,064.4fps.
: 303gr. Buffalo Arms mould FN - 14.0gr. Trail Boss Av. 1,202fps 1.325" @ 50yards tang sight and blade.
: 303gr. Buffalo Arms mould FN - 37.0gr. IMR3031 Average Vel. 1,261fps. mild easy shooting 1.5" 50 yards Winch. open sights;
:303gr. Buffalo Arms mould FN - 13.0gr. Herco Foam backer rod 1/2" - 1,180fps Av. 1.2" 50yards tang sight and blade.
These pressure tested loads were loads I found elsewhere and had recorded for my brother.
You might google Barnsness .45/60 loads. He did an article some time ago about this round in M1876 Rifles.
385gr. cast presume Lyman mould - might have been gas checked.
:Varget ---- 42.5gr. - 1,537fps - 15,400CUP
:H4895------ 35.0gr. - 1,280fps - 11,900CUP
:H-Bch.Mark- 50.0gr. - 1,621fps - 16,300CUP
:IMR4064 --- 47.0gr. - 1,545fps - 18,800CUP
:Trail Boss- 14.0gr. - 1,075fps - 19,400CUP
Note the actual pressure developed by TB - compared to the others. Just because it produces low velocities, does not mean it produces sub-normal pressures.
Hodgdon's own data shows it produces up to 25,000PSI in the .45/70 with heavier bullets and maximum to the base of the bullet's loads, even though they feel like very slow, low pressure soft-ball loads. Slow they might be, but the pressure is up near max for many weak actions.
Bottle-necked ctgs. can produce well over 30,000psi with jacketed bullets, but of course, this is well below the normal 65,000psi some ctg.s produce with FP loads.
I would be VERY tempted to start with either IMR3031 or H4895 as both work well with lower pressures in the 20,000psi range, depending on bullet weight. H4895 could be reduced to about 35.0gr. to start - chrono and go from there, using a 380gr. bullet.
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 25/06/15 12:31 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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The Westley Richards "Improved" Martini in my custody is chambered for the .450 No.1 Carbine (despite being a full-length rifle!) and shoots a 300gr flat-point jacketed projectile to the sights all day long when propelled by 33gr of IMR 4759.
It is so consistently accurate with that load that I have never tried any other.
Hope this helps.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/06/15 01:09 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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If Western Powder 5744 is available, a similar load with it could also be developed. Not sensitive to position inside the case and needs no fillers at all.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 25/06/15 02:00 AM |
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Can this case be made from 45/70 brass?
The W.R. No1 Carbine is a necked case with a .576" base diameter.
Just making sure we are talking the same cartridge here.
A very good write up here:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/westley-richards/westley-richards-1869.html
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/06/15 06:57 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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Nice rifle! The case looks like it would hold 55gr. BP as noted by Mike.
This gives the necked 1.5" case, a similar capacity to the 1.9" shortened .45/70 case(nominally 2.1")
Thus, BP duplication loads would be quite similar, if not identical.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/06/15 12:31 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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I have one of these rifles in that chambering and I make my bass from 50/90 sharps brass
45/70 is to small.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/06/15 02:22 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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I'll look around for my loads.
55 gr of Fg and 380 gr bullet was what I started with.
I don't recall what I used for Nitro for black, but I would have start with 40% of 55 grs. in IMR 4198.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/06/15 12:37 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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Quote:
I have one of these rifles in that chambering and I make my bass from 50/90 sharps brass
45/70 is to small.
That was my point, DD - with the smaller, but longer case, the capacity would be very similar, if not the same. I just took for granted everyone would know the .45/70 case was not a bottle necked case and thus had to be slightly longer to match the capacity of the necked, larger but shorter case, for anyone who might have missed that - sorry for not being clear.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 26/06/15 04:21 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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Cases can also be made from 500/450 N0.2, WR Musket No.2 and .476 NE brass.
The 500/450 No.2 is a Gibbs cartridge and the WR No.2 is a Westley Richards cartridge. They are not the same, but are insignificantly different and will interchange most of the time. The upside is I doubt you will find any WR Musket No.2 Brass.
I mention this as the WR carbine and the WR Musket share the same case and most references point to that.
The 50/90 brass seems to work better for me as once necked down the necks don't need reamed. The 50/90 brass is not as heavy as the NE brass.
I have also used some 500/450 No. 2 brass and it works well, no neck reaming needed.
| dracb |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/06/15 07:30 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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I use 50/90 brass to make WR No.2 Musket brass for my WR rifle.If the 50/90 was not locally available, I think I would look closely at using the .348 case for low pressure loads of black powder (or even lower pressure smokeless loads). It might require a thin walled brass tube bushing around the head. This is not a recommendation but rather it is just an observation passed along for thoughtful consideration when other more suitable brass may not be readily available or too expensive.
| TH44 |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/06/15 09:15 AM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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Many thanks for all your kind comments and advice, especially Daryl's time to post so many loads
I have some cases on order and will probably start with the BP load as it was what the rifle was designed for
I have some H4198 so that will probably be the first smokeless load but Marrakal's sounds interesting but I now have much information to go with
Huvius - I had already printed your link for my Field's Patent, very useful
I am sure I will agree with your comments after I start shooting
Thank you again everyone
Tony
| ESOTERIC |
| (.224 member) |
| 09/12/15 03:23 PM |
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Re: Westley Richards Carbine
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By far the easiest way to make the N0. 1 carbine round is to use Starline 50-70 Govt brass. Far less trimming and no hassle with case neck wall thickness, etc