(.375 member)

26/03/09 02:01 PM

Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Looking for some information on the 9x57R/360. I have found a very affordable Combo gun (actual condition to be determined) in this and would like any information on the catridge. I am being assumptive that it is the 9x57 mauser with a Rim, with the 360 moniker being a english attachment.........?????????????

(.450 member)

26/03/09 02:29 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Caprivi

Always worth owning a copy of Cartridges of the World.

best reference book to have on hand.

(.375 member)

26/03/09 02:41 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Thanks 500,

I have it and it doesn't have much to say.

(.333 member)

26/03/09 07:06 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

There are 2 very different cartridge groups which are often confused:

1. the 9.3x57R/360 is a very old cartridge (say 1880s), descending from the British .360 Express 2 1/4, conical or tapered case, dimensions very similar but not identical to the Bitish case.
This was the time before cartridge dimensions were standardized, so there were different versions with respect to case shape, bullet diameter, and loads (black and nitro).
There never was a 9x57R/360, but versions copying British dimensions were closer to 9 mm than 9.3 mm (but to my knowledge always called "9.3" in Germany).
The 9.3x57R/360 must have been quite popular at some time, but was then quickly superseded by the longer 9.3x72R.
Cases can be formed from the 9.3x72R. Base diameter is about .430.
There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files.
I also have some own experience and loading data.

2. the Mauser family: bottleneck cases, base diameter about .470.
there was a 9x57 (rimless), a 9x57R (rimmed), a 9.3x57 (rimless), but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R.

Fuhrmann

(.400 member)

26/03/09 07:10 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

When they wrote /360 it usually ment it was the 9,3/57r to begin with, then taken down to ex. 8mm being the 8x57r/360.

(.450 member)

26/03/09 07:21 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Caprivi

If you buy it, might sure you slug the bore and get correct dimensions first before firing.

.360 or 9mm versus .366 is a fai bit of swaging if you use the wrong bullet, especially in an old gun like that.

(.470 member)

26/03/09 10:47 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

There are 2 very different cartridge groups which are often confused:

1. the 9.3x57R/360 is a very old cartridge (say 1880s), descending from the British .360 Express 2 1/4, conical or tapered case, dimensions very similar but not identical to the Bitish case.
This was the time before cartridge dimensions were standardized, so there were different versions with respect to case shape, bullet diameter, and loads (black and nitro).
There never was a 9x57R/360, but versions copying British dimensions were closer to 9 mm than 9.3 mm (but to my knowledge always called "9.3" in Germany).
The 9.3x57R/360 must have been quite popular at some time, but was then quickly superseded by the longer 9.3x72R.
Cases can be formed from the 9.3x72R. Base diameter is about .430.
There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files.
I also have some own experience and loading data.

2. the Mauser family: bottleneck cases, base diameter about .470.
there was a 9x57 (rimless), a 9x57R (rimmed), a 9.3x57 (rimless), but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R.

Fuhrmann

hello fuhrmann

its all correctly and I have never had a 9,3x57R mauser in my hands till now but the 1926 Steigleder list have this round on paper: 9,3x57 without and with rim - ohne und mit Rand

there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now and there can be no doubt that when a swedish baron have order a double rifle before ww2, suhl delievered this

german designation for cartridges based on express cartridge cases is simple: 9,3x57R 360( the last is the mother case)

(.333 member)

26/03/09 11:17 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

hello fuhrmann

its all correctly and I have never had a 9,3x57R mauser in my hands till now but the 1926 Steigleder list have this round on paper: 9,3x57 without and with rim - ohne und mit Rand
...
there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now and there can be no doubt that when a swedish baron have order a double rifle before ww2, suhl delievered this

german designation for cartridges based on express cartridge cases is simple: 9,3x57R 360( the last is the mother case)

Hello Lancaster,

you are right - one should never say "Never" with these old cartridges.
But still, a rimmed 9.3x57R "Mauser" would be really rare!
Remember the excerpt from the Burgsmueller 1927 catalog that you sent me some time ago?
It lists a "9.3x57 mit Rand", ballistics clearly in the "Mauser range".
At that time I thought this was a printing error.
But then, there is also a "9,3x62 mit Rand - ohne Rand". Who knows, another rare bird?

Fuhrmann

(.375 member)

27/03/09 12:37 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

"There never was a 9x57R/360" I stated this as this is what the ventor has it listed as....?????

"but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R." Here in the states there are quite a few Husq 17 combo's for sale in this designation.

"When they wrote /360 it usually ment it was the 9,3/57r to begin with, then taken down to ex. 8mm being the 8x57r/360." I have noticed the /360 attacthed to a few catridges....again....????

"If you buy it, might sure you slug the bore and get correct dimensions first before firing." This is a definite, certainly I will make all attempts to decipher the correct chambering.

"There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files." Yes, I would like copies of those.

"there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now " There are quite a few HVA 46's appearing here in the states now.

"you are right - one should never say "Never" with these old cartridges." So very true.

Thank you for the future information. These old birds can be a bit confusing at first, but that is what makes them all the more attractive. I will be talking with the ventor this Afternoon, so maybe some pictures and more info will be forthcoming from my end.

That said for a bit of a tease, it is a 12ga (unknown chamber length) SXS combo with 3 leaf sight and is a back action (semi island lock) hammer gun. DAH looks a bit much but we shall see.

(.470 member)

27/03/09 12:48 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

back to the future: the 9,3x57R360 was a very popular round in sweden,long after the 9,3x72R become THE drilling cartridge. maybe no firm build more rifles, single, double and combination than Husqvarna

this belgian made is probaly a swede http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...76974d9ccc0c8b0

someone dont know it by simpsons or its the old problem with belgium made parts or guns in the white making for the swedish market and finish from husqvarna
nice price btw

combo in 12,7x44R http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...76974d9ccc0c8b0
belgium? more likely sweden

(.470 member)

27/03/09 01:00 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

http://www.skydevaaben.com/husqvarna/model33/info.xml

the 9,3x57R 360 is the german copy of the 360 BPE 2 1/4"

you see a original british coiled case cartridge here between the 476 enfield and the 10 ga wire cartridge
very similar but later british cartridges will not fit in german chambers

there are a lot of german made cartridge from this old british round
6,5x40R360
6,5x48R360
6,5x58R360
8,15x46R
8x57R 360
8x58 S&S
7x72R
8x72R
9,3x72R
9,3x80R
9,3x82R

and the cartridges I forget here

(.375 member)

27/03/09 02:01 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Thanks for the update. I have not got thru to the vendor yet, so no new news.

This chambering I am finding is pretty anemic, I was hoping for a loading of a 232-250gr bullet at 1900-2100 or so. In the 38/55 or 35rem power range. I am assuming this may not be it.

I was thinking it would be more towards the 360#2

(.700 member)

27/03/09 02:15 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Excellent link, Lancaster. My first thought was a 360gr. bullet as per Us 1800's designations - but - WRONG - different meanings for the German round. This is a deer ctg. only and would be a fun gun to shoot and develope rounds for.

(.375 member)

27/03/09 02:37 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Any idea what kind of performance I could expect from this....?????

(.333 member)

27/03/09 02:56 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

Thank you for the future information. These old birds can be a bit confusing at first, but that is what makes them all the more attractive. I will be talking with the ventor this Afternoon, so maybe some pictures and more info will be forthcoming from my end.

That said for a bit of a tease, it is a 12ga (unknown chamber length) SXS combo with 3 leaf sight and is a back action (semi island lock) hammer gun. DAH looks a bit much but we shall see.

Caprivi,
I just sent you an e-mail, with the articles attached.
Yes, at first this is a bit confusing.
Bear in mind that in the old days cartridge designations and markings on rifles were not standardized.

Husqvarna guns to my knowledge were chambered for the 9.3x57R/360 - but maybe they were marked only "9.3x57R"?
I repeat, it is a 9.3x57 R MAUSER, the existence of which is very questionable.

Fuhrmann

(.333 member)

27/03/09 03:02 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

Any idea what kind of performance I could expect from this....?????

I have searched all available literature for original ballistic data of the 9.3x57R/360, but did not find anything meaningful.
In those days - before 1900 - ballistics were not developed very much.

Now I load for my rifle the 12.5 gram / 193 grain RWS bullet for the 9.3x72R, to a muzzle velocity of max. 540 m/s (1770 fps).
The rifle is nitro proofed; I would not use that load with a rifle that is only BP proofed.

Fuhrmann

(.333 member)

27/03/09 03:07 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

there are a lot of german made cartridge from this old british round
6,5x40R360
6,5x48R360
6,5x58R360
8,15x46R
8x57R 360
8x58 S&S
7x72R
8x72R
9,3x72R
9,3x80R
9,3x82R

and the cartridges I forget here

Lancaster,

you could add all the American cartridges that may also have been derived from the British .360:
.38-55
.30-30
.25-35
.22 Savage
etc. etc.

(.400 member)

27/03/09 03:22 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Something like this maybe?

(.375 member)

27/03/09 03:52 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

This has all been very, very informative, but alas is now a mute point as Gun has sold before I could get thru to them.

here is the link:
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...4ba9928d8a03260

Simpson Ltd is a good source for Husqvarna guns, well really all things european.

(.333 member)

10/04/09 11:02 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

quote]

Hi Lancaster,

lookie here:
http://www.93x57r.se/

Fuhrmann

(.450 member)

10/04/09 11:47 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Check rim thickness, too, as I believe the rim thickness on the 9,3x57R/.360 is thicker than the rim on the 9,3x72R. At least, in most cases...

This is the .360, I believe, carried by Nansen on his great trek during the now-famous and still utterly amazing "Farthest North" expedition. His expedition can really only be compared to a lunar expedition of today. Indeed, it was more difficult in some ways, as he had no contact with the outside world for over two years.

Muzzle velocities in a rifle are similar to what are generated by the .357 Magnum in a handgun; about 1400-1500 fps with a 150 to 160 grain bullet IIRC. Nansen rouytinely used this combination on Polar Bear with good success. His Cape Guns had 20 bore shtgun barrels and he did bring slugs of some type {probably round ball} loads for the 20 bore.

Tho ballistics do not say "Polar Bear" to us today, his choice of gun, like all equipment, was very well thought out. Remember, all gear had to be dragged by sled, pulled by dogs or man, so weight of ammunition was VERY important. 20 bore guns killed bird life well, and the rifle handled seals and other mammal life as well. Amazing man. Amazing trek. Certainly in the great tradition of the Norse explorers of the Viking era.

(.470 member)

11/04/09 03:24 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Quote:

Quote:

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

quote]

Hi Lancaster,

lookie here:
http://www.93x57r.se/

Fuhrmann

I know that it must be there!
you never know it before if a cartridge become popular, maybe a Norma standard round in 10 years

(.300 member)

04/07/10 12:29 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

I have this cape gun. It's a Henry Pieper sxs with 12 gauge 2 1/2 inch on one side and what seems to be 9.3x57R on the right. I have found brass and projectiles at Buffalo Arms. They cut down 30-40 Krag brass and sell a jacketed 193 grain projectile. Initial loads with H322 and Alliant 2400 prove to be VERY accurate, but I am loading without the benefit of the proper dies. Can anyone recommend a source for 9.3x57R dies?

(.470 member)

04/07/10 01:19 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

CH4D
it would be better if you send Dave some fired cases for don't having trouble with odd chamber dimension's

(.300 member)

07/07/10 01:45 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Pieper cape gun 12 and 9.3x57R (360 NE)? or maybe 9.3x60R?

I bought this gun as a 12 gauge and 38-55 combination. Pieper in fact made a 12/38-55 combination. 38-55 cases chamber. The prior owner believed it was a 38-55 and fired 38-55 from the rifled barrel. There is in fact a pair of stamps under the rifled barrel. One is �38� and just after it �55� While I am no expert there are a multitude of stamps which appear to be of Belgian origin, but none that designate the chambering that I can see.

Despite that � the bore is .366. 9.3x72R will not chamber � these cases are at least a half inch too long. I picked up some 360 Nitro Express cases as converted from 30-40 Krag by Buffalo Arms and loaded these with 9.3 diameter projectiles. They shoot very well and the fire formed cases appear to be straight walled. I am wondering if the length is correct. It might just be 9.3x60R if such a chambering was ever made.

Any chance that you have encountered something similar?

Thanks in advance for any info:

Mike

(.300 member)

07/07/10 02:48 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

It looks like the rifled tube was proofed twice. There looks to be an "8.9" stamp near the lower ribe and then an "8.8" stamp closer to the intertwined "EL" proofmark. There's also an "Express" stamp so I'd guess 360 BPE Express but it wouldn't hurt to make a wax cast and make some measurements. All those proofmarks don't appear to be Belgian. Can you snap a better pic of the flats of the rifled tube?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

(.470 member)

07/07/10 03:00 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

never heard of a 9,3x60R, its a x57R or a x72R

I would not wonder if Pieper had made it as a 38-55 for the north american market.

(.300 member)

07/07/10 03:05 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

I can try to get a better pic but I took a lot and this was the best one. Thanks for the input so far!

(.300 member)

07/07/10 03:56 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 *DELETED*

Post deleted by GroovyMike

(.400 member)

07/07/10 04:18 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

" All those proofmarks don't appear to be Belgian."
Sorry, Raimey, but I can see only the usual Liege, Belgium blackpowder proofmarks! On the action flat there is the "Perron", the symbol of the City of Liege, and a "V under star", a Belgian inspectors personal stamp. Under the rifle barrel there is the "EL" blackpowder proofmark, The "ELG in oval under crown", the Liege proofhouse acceptance mark in use from 1893, and the "R under crown" which in Liege marks proof of a rifled barrel. "8.8"mm is the correct bore (not rifling or bullet!)diameter for both the 9.3x72R and it's forerunner, the 9.3x57R aka .360 BPExpress.

(.300 member)

07/07/10 04:27 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

VERY HELPFUL!

Thank you.

I don�t know if anything of further identification in the following photos, but here they are just in case:

Any other options for dies or would everyone here recommend CH4D?
I am unfamiliar with the firm.

Thank you once again for your help and expertise.

(.400 member)

07/07/10 07:41 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

BTW the Perron, ancient symbol of the liberties of the City of Liege, is shown among the Liege proofmarks. The word "Perron" comes from pierre = stone in French. It is also shown in the coat of arms of liege.

The perron proper was composed in the early middle ages from Roman artifacts, some marble slabs, a pillar, four lions and a pineapple. Lions and pineapple were Roman gravemarkers.
The photo shows what the real thing looks like, standing on a 17th century substructure in the Liege marketplace.

(.300 member)

07/07/10 09:58 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Well, Axel just may be correct and the odd marks on the longarm are transitional type stamps from a finite period of time, possibly some were just used for a number of months. If that's a "Crown" over "C" on the underside of the scattergun tube, I haven't a clue what it might be. In 1894 the proofhouse made a transition from 0,2mm plug gauge increments to a 0,1mm plug gauge increment. So that might explain the "8.9" stamp(bore diameter) on the inside of the rifled tubes, which I think to be the 1st diameter, and the "8.8" stamp being the 2nd one. Can you tell if the "Express" is coupled with "Express non raye"? If so the longarm would date between 1894 & 1898. The example would be from a transitional period and just from the marks the inspectors/stamp applyers seemed confused. Maybe they were unaccustomed to some new rules. There are some marks on the rifled flats that more than likely are of Belgian origin and may have only existed for several months. There's a slim chance that they might import marks and be of Czech origin. Also the watertable is stamped "Belgium" and that would have been required to import into countries with country of origin stamps such as the U.S. of A.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

(.300 member)

07/07/10 10:35 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge.

There are no other words except "Express" and "Belgium" that I can see, thus no "Non Raye".

I will try to contact CH4D regarding the dies.

Can anyone direct me toward load data?

(.300 member)

07/07/10 11:14 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

I think I load my 8x57R/360 using 9.3X72R(CH4D) dies. I'd look around for a used set of RCBS 9.3X72R dies because chances are once you acquire a longarm chambered in one of the family of 360" BPE that you are going to acquire another. The 9.3X82R would be one of the family that may be difficult to reload using the 9.3X72R dies.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

(.400 member)

07/07/10 11:21 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Of course there is no "NON RAYE" on a rifled barrel, because this means "not rifled"! "Express non Raye" was used from 1894 to 1924 on guns that took BPE cases with a round ball, destined for countries which even then thought a rifled barrel to be more dangerous than a smoothbore and required licensing, or to circumvent import restictions and heavy taxing by such countries. Some of these smoothbores were rifled later.

(.300 member)

08/07/10 03:39 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

OF COURSE 360 BPE is the most epensive set of dies in the mix:

from http://www.ch4d.com/

search for 360 shows:

360 #5 Rook $ 78.25
360 2 7/16 $ 78.25
360 Black Powder Exp $ 156.60
360 Imperial Mag $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express #2 $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express 2.25 in. $ 78.25
360 Str. 2 7/16 2.437 $ 78.25
360 Wesley Richards No. 3 $ 109.57
400 - 360 Purdey $ 109.57
8 x 57 (.360) $ 78.25
9.3 x 72 (.360) $ 78.25

Now I have to check cartridges of the world and see how much difefrence there is between 360 BPE and say 360 Nitro Express 2.25 in.....

I am out of my depth on this so I appreciate your contunued input.
Mike

(.300 member)

08/07/10 03:47 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Axel, I did take note of the "Crown" over "R" but thought they may have changed their minds and rifled it but that would have been more that 0,2mm difference?? Are you sure on the "Express Non Raye" holding out till 1924?

Mike:
It's the 360 2 1/4" BPE but as I said I'd look for 9.3x72R dies, which would be a 72-57 difference, but then again they are the same price.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

(.400 member)

08/07/10 07:02 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Raimey, the stamp sais only "Express" without "non raye"! The marking "Express" only sais it was proofed for one of the blackpowder Express cartridges, which all took a healthier bp charge than the proof tables prescribed for the "ordinary" proof. Remember the German use of the crown/E mark for higher-than-normal pressure proof. The 1891 German proof tables, patterned after the Liege ones, prescribed for gauge # 99.7 =.360"bore an "ordinary" final proof charge of 89.5gr BP/403gr lead bullet, but for the "Express" final proof 100.3gr BP. I think the barrel was marked "8.9"by the barrelmaker, but at the proofhouse for some reason only the 8.8 mm plug gauge entered, so the two designations.
According to Gargela/Faktor:"Zeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen", the EXPRESS NON RAYE mark apeeared in the 1894 tables, but was included no more in the 1924 tables. If it was still in use all the time, I don't know

(.224 member)

02/04/12 01:17 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Fuhrmann,

Might I impose on you to send me the articles on the 9.3x57R-360?

Incidentally, "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" (THMCC) has a page on the 9.3x57R and under other names lists 9.3x57R/360 and .360 Nitro Express. It lists the information source as Cartridges of the World, 4th edition and my 10th edition does not have any info on the cartridge. The loading data in THMCC is for a 190 gr lead bullet at 2000fps.

The cartridge specs in THMCC are for a case 2.245" long and head diameter of .428 and the base case for forming is stated as .45-70 Gov't. This case can't be right as it is simple too large for a nearly straight case that ends in a .365 bullet diameter. The 9.3x72R is probable as a case. This would comport rather nicely to the .360 Nitro Express case dimensions. Anyway, I can imagine a 200 grain 20:1 alloy paper jacketed bullet at 2000fps as the cat's meow for Sitka black tails.

If I buy the gun I'm looking at I can then tell you more about the chamber dimensions of one gun.
Dennis

(.333 member)

03/04/12 04:09 PM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

Dennis,

I will gladly send you what I have, by e-mail.
Would you send me a PM with your e-mail address?

Fuhrmann

(.224 member)

04/04/12 11:01 AM

Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360

PM sent as requested. Thanks.

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