| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 17/10/22 05:53 AM |
German Shot and Ball Guns
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Saw an interesting ad on a Canadian forum
Quote:
Roemer ,Suhl -12 gauge,2-3/4 chamber,Nitro proof,Ball and Shot,Paradox gun,32” barrel,Good bore,all original,Krupp-Lauf Stahl,1928 year of production
This gun was made for Thailand ,with Crown logo and
No pictures included but I emailed asking for some.
Googling German Shot and Ball guns brings up nothing. I know that German side by sides were often used for dual purpose, but I’m curious if there are a lot of them out there with some form of rifling, sights and barrels regulated for slugs?
Anyone have a resource on these? Pictures of other German shot and ball guns?
Thanks
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/10/22 05:57 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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I don't recall ever seeing a paradox choked gun bearing German makers marks or German proofs
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/10/22 05:58 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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So - yes, photos would be great
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 17/10/22 07:05 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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the good guys in suhl were making everything in guns people want to buy for money around the world.
no problem if you want then a paradox with a stiff upper lip, they build it for you.
so let the pics coming...
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/10/22 07:54 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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The 1892 German proof rules even had a special proofmark for “choke bored barrels with the restricted part rifled”, i.e. paradox bore barrels.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/10/22 11:08 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Great comments from our friends in-country
Now let's see some photos!
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 17/10/22 12:46 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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As I said I emailed for some, no response yet. Not sure it’s really appropriate to post a picture of something a private individual is selling anyways tbh.
Sounds like they are a rarity, I was hoping to get some sense of value. Sometimes it’s hard to “ buy the gun not the story”
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/10/22 01:02 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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While you're asking the fellow for photos, ask him if he's ok with us taking a look.
If I've misjudged their gender, my apologies...
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 18/10/22 09:09 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Good idea! No response yet unfortunately, probably out hunting.
Anyone have a link to one at auction? It is listed for 1600 CAD. For some reason I feel like that is either a very good deal or a rip off
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/10/22 05:32 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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He sent me this link:
https://www.gunpost.ca/firearms/shotguns...-1224410-gauges
I shared this link with him so hopefully he will be willing to share more, judging by his for sale ads he would probably fit right in
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/10/22 08:24 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Got some pictures
Looks like it is a single shot which is even more unusual than I thought. Has taken away my interest but the owner (and me!) are interested in seeing what everyone has to say about it
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 21/10/22 12:41 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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It looks like straight rifling
I don't see any twist there
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 21/10/22 01:09 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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My thoughts too, Tinker.
I would not be interested in it either. A rather plain, inexpensive single shot 12 bore.
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/10/22 01:26 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Certainly an interesting gun and I bet there is a cool story behind it.
I really can’t find much on single shot German shotguns, single shot shot and ball guns or German shot and ball guns at all. Certainly a mystery. Would be really interested to see how the proof marks are interpreted
May be worth 1600 to a collector but not to me; I would have to sell another gun to buy it and I’m running short on those post covid.
If it was a “good deal” or going cheap at auction I would certainly be interested to see how it shot score and challenger “thug” style brenneke derivative slugs. Lack of sights is kind of interesting
Who knows what it saw in the Thai jungles? Maybe more importantly who knows how often it was oiled.
Guess it’s back to drooling over that Bentley and Playfair with short barrels on guns international
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 21/10/22 02:13 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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I'd have to produce my proofs book, but my first impression is that it's not a ball and shot gun
No sights, raised rib, and it looks quite light
We've seen French, Belgian, and Austrian guns with straight rifled chokes that were so outfitted for management of the wadding, and/or to act as spreader chokes for rapid pattern evolution
I wouldn't be betting that this gun was built with single projectiles in mind
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/10/22 02:58 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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That might explain the total lack of info on German shot and ball guns and single shot paradox guns.
I was certainly imagining a side by side tiger hunting rig for the Siamese jungle when I read the ad
Would still be interested in seeing some examples of the paradox proofed continental guns.
Thanks for the info
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 22/10/22 03:31 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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With no rear sight, appears to be a shotgun only.
My SxS with the straight rifled tube, shows it was meant for ball and shot, due to it's rear sight & blade front sight.
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/10/22 01:17 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Tradex husqvarna moose gun?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 23/10/22 03:11 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Yes - made in 1898 to 1900 according to the serial #. Apparently Sweden passed a law that a moose gun had to have rifling. Thus Husqvarna started making SxS's with one barrel rifled and the other smooth. The round ball loads were apparently loaded in brass cases with black powder and the shot loads for the other barrel, were loaded in paper with the new smokeless. As well, there was apparently no rhyme nor reason why some had twisted rifling, while others were straight, except the straight rifling shot decently with standard shot loads. This was a nitro proofed gun.
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/10/22 06:48 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Miss the “glory days” of that site when they had husqy Cape guns, the Mauser 71 clones in 30/30 and well priced VC doubles available.
Intersurplus is an alright substitute but it seems not as many “ interesting” guns come in these days. Great North Gun Co gets in some cool drillings and euro bolt guns but their prices are out to lunch
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/10/22 06:17 AM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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This German single shot was made by the Römerwerk, Suhl. It was proofed in Suhl 1/28 = January 1928 for using 12 2 ½” shells. 13/1 was the gauge number for a tight 12 bore. Just beside the “eagle” mark for first proof you may see the proofmark for “rifled choke” (crown over intertwined SW) I mentioned above.
BTW, straight rifling or straight rifled chokes were not meant for shooting ball all the time. Instead, it was more often used as a means to improve shot patterns. The theory is: The straight rifling prevents shot charge and wadding from rotating willy nilly while passing the barrel. This is thought to reduce centrifugal dispersion of the shot charge after leaving the muzzle. Apparently a brilliant idea reinvented by each generation for more than 200 years. The earliest example I have seen was a flintlock fowler from about 1790. Zimmer, 1872, mentions it as an old but bum idea. Then I have seen some 1890s Austrian - Bohemian shotguns with straight rifling. I found it last mentioned reinvented as a “new improvement” in a 1960s Gun Digest. An American then attached choke tubes with straight rifling to his shotgun and claimed vastly improved patterns as did all the other “inventors” before.
| Conor_90 |
| (.224 member) |
| 02/11/22 05:42 PM |
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Re: German Shot and Ball Guns
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Thanks for the info gentlemen
Shame it wasn’t a big bore for the Thai jungles