3DogMike
(.400 member)
05/09/22 04:10 AM
10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

More info to come once I get pictures, in the mean time you can speculate.
I will say that the date 1898 is involved
- Mike



93x64mm
(.416 member)
05/09/22 05:57 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Now that is impressive & so is the casting!
Very nice acquisition their Mike!
This I believe may be a very Paradoxical photo.....no rifle.
Am I close?


tinker
(.416 member)
05/09/22 08:51 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

You have my attention!

CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
05/09/22 08:45 PM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Hey Mike,

I'm suited up to play this game.









Congratulations! And keep us informed of all developments.

Curl


rigbymauser
(.400 member)
05/09/22 11:29 PM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

oh man...

You have bought a 10bore paradox....


3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/09/22 07:21 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

You guys were spot on…...
Holland & Holland hammerless 10 bore Paradox from 1898
8 Dram equivalent 2 7/8" case, Nitro Proof, 27" barrels, and 13lbs 4oz





More pictures to come (slowly)
- Mike


tinker
(.416 member)
06/09/22 07:43 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Very nice!

I can't wait for a field report


Imgur - not anything I'd recommend to anyone
I'm still using Flickr, it continues to do the trick without drama or hassle


3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/09/22 08:29 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery






3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/09/22 08:31 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery



the ratchet rifling is impressive, and still sharp enough to trim a finger nail


3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/09/22 08:48 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Interesting: only 89 of the 10 bore Paradox were made by H&H, of those only 37 were hammerless like this one.

Like Roscoe's screenshot, I will be using Track of the Wolf thin case brass, and a proper 875 grain Fosbery Paradox bullet sized .806" and cast of 1-20. Initial loads will be 220 grains (8 Drams) of Swiss 1 1/2.
I expect the recoil and smoke will be about on par with my 15 1/2 lb 8 bore G.E. Lewis?

I'm waiting for a push thru bullet sizer made by my friend Steve Bertram to get the bullets down to size, the original H&H mould (not numbered to the gun) casts a bit oversize and slightly out of round.
As this one was Nitro Proof I will eventually try Cal Pappas' recommended smokeless loads using his Blue Dot recipe.

I will have to do a "family group photo" of my bore rifles 12, 10, and 8
Sorry but a 4 bore remains out of my reach unless I score a big lottery win……..

- Mike


prairie_ghost
(.300 member)
06/09/22 11:35 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Lovely gun, lovlier engraving!

Huvius
(.416 member)
06/09/22 11:47 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

WOW!!
That would be the pride o' the farm around these parts...


3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/09/22 01:46 PM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

Holland and Holland ledger notes for this gun:

The buyer "Pudokota" is likely the Raja of Pudukkottai 1875-1928, which princely state is in the Tamil area South SouthWest of Madras.




93x64mm
(.416 member)
06/09/22 09:13 PM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

This is as best my eyes can read those notes!

Shot & regulated with 8 Drams # (of) powder
Solid cone bullets hard 1 in 15
Unswed$ed 2 7/8 case
50 yards

1Dram = 27.34gn powder
8Dram = 218.75gn powder = LOTS of smoke & flames!
Not sure on the weight of bullet, but it will be a corker for sure!

One hell of a lot of jealous guys here Mike, you'll definitely have a smile that won't come off for a week when you let those cotton reels fly!


lancaster
(.470 member)
07/09/22 02:19 PM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

take a look at the brass https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1210/9

is this drawn brass ot lathe turned?


3DogMike
(.400 member)
08/09/22 01:57 AM
Re: Holland & Holland 10 bore Paradox

Quote:

take a look at the brass https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1210/9
is this drawn brass ot lathe turned?




I believe the 10ga is lathe turned. I have some of the Track of the Wolf 12 bore brass and it is certainly lathe turned.

Will have it in my hands by the end of this week and can report for sure.
- Mike


DarylS
(.700 member)
08/09/22 02:21 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

NICE, Mike.

lancaster
(.470 member)
08/09/22 03:53 AM
Re: Teaser picture for change of scenery

thanks, it looks interesting because of the headstamp

3DogMike
(.400 member)
12/09/22 02:04 PM
H&H 10 bore update:

1st off: lancaster….got my order & the Track of the Wolf 10ga cases are for certain lathe turned. Great fit in my gun.

2 of the Track the Wolf and 2 older 10bore brass cases I had stashed, loaded with bullets from the H&H mould I got with the gun.
8 Drams of Swiss 1 1/2 and appropriate nitro card and lubed fibre wads under roughly sized down bullets and I have 4 rounds to test when I get time in the next couple of days. No proper crimper yet so will be fired one a a time.
……sorry; no buffalo, Gaur, elephant or tigers here to test them on…..

- Mike



93x64mm
(.416 member)
12/09/22 09:03 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Mike,
Buckstix makes a crimper of sorts for brass cases - might be beneficial
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post363687


3DogMike
(.400 member)
13/09/22 01:29 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Mike,
Buckstix makes a crimper of sorts for brass cases - might be beneficial
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post363687




Right you are! I have already contacted Buck and need to send a couple of cases and bullets out to him for making sure of proper fit.
- Mike


georgegibbs505
(.275 member)
13/09/22 10:52 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Mike, very nice Holland, should be a fun one to play with. If your lucky, you don’t need to win the lottery to get a 4 bore. Looking forward to seeing the bore rifle family photo.

3DogMike
(.400 member)
13/09/22 12:09 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Mike, very nice Holland, should be a fun one to play with. If your lucky, you don’t need to win the lottery to get a 4 bore. Looking forward to seeing the bore rifle family photo.



I shall get a "family photo" of the heavy 12, 10, and 8 up in the next couple of days.

As to a 4 bore: it would certainly round out the "family", though I would not really have a huge urge to have a 4 bore with the intent to do much recreational shooting. Years ago I got to shoot a Bland single 4 bore owned by Ray Meyer (I heard that it went to Alaska after Ray's passing)…….I felt it actually was not that much more "invigorating" than an 8 bore to shoot from a standing position on my own two hind legs.
Just that a proper 4 bore weighs about like a truck axle…….tho much better looking.
- Mike


rigbymauser
(.400 member)
13/09/22 06:34 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Hey Mike.

The swiss 1.5F is very good if not the best. My Manton takes almost 10drams and it burns clean too.


3DogMike
(.400 member)
21/09/22 07:34 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Finally got out to shoot, only loaded 4 for initial test.
8 Drams of Swiss 1 1/2, Fed 215 primer, nitro card and SPG lubed fibre wad, overshot card wad under 875 grain Paradox bullet from vintage H&H mould sized to bore diameter.

25 yards today, standing rest, crossing a bit but can work on that. R1/L1 are 1 1/4", better hold for R2/L2 out of dirty barrels were 5/8"
The 2 "smaller" uppermost holes are from a .577BPE…..

I'm a happy camper. Recoil about as expected, close but not quite as much as my 8 bore GE Lewis with 10 Dram & round ball.
- Mike



tinker
(.416 member)
21/09/22 10:09 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Fantastic!

3DogMike
(.400 member)
21/09/22 11:55 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Yep, as my Brit friends would say: "I'm chuffed"
- Mike


tinker
(.416 member)
21/09/22 11:56 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Indeed

That's a great start


93x64mm
(.416 member)
21/09/22 09:07 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Finally got out to shoot, only loaded 4 for initial test.
8 Drams of Swiss 1 1/2, Fed 215 primer, nitro card and SPG lubed fibre wad, overshot card wad under 875 grain Paradox bullet from vintage H&H mould sized to bore diameter.

25 yards today, standing rest, crossing a bit but can work on that. R1/L1 are 1 1/4", better hold for R2/L2 out of dirty barrels were 5/8"
The 2 "smaller" uppermost holes are from a .577BPE…..

I'm a happy camper. Recoil about as expected, close but not quite as much as my 8 bore GE Lewis with 10 Dram & round ball.
- Mike






I'd be more than happy with that grouping - well done Mike!


gatsby
(.375 member)
26/09/22 09:22 AM
Re: 10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

Very nice Paradox. Do you have bore and choke measurements?

3DogMike
(.400 member)
26/09/22 11:51 AM
Re: 10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

Quote:

Very nice Paradox. Do you have bore and choke measurements?



Hello gatsby,
Bore is .807”-.808” 5” ahead of the chambers as close as I can measure the slug. Have not measured the actual choke.
Bore has possibly been honed at some time or another as the 10 bore 2/10 proof spec is .803” as far as I can determine from the old sources, and the bores are mirror bright. Unusual for a ~124 year old gun.

ADDED:
I am having Steve Brooks brooksmoulds.com make me an exact copy of the Fosbery HP bullet from the rather worn original H&H mould. Expected to cast out at ~.806” and ~875 grains. The Brooks moulds are some of the best, I have acouple of others to cast copies of proper weight .450 and .500 BPE hollow point bullets and they cast flawless bullets.
- Mike


gatsby
(.375 member)
27/09/22 03:16 AM
Re: 10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

I have had more than a couple paradox 10s here
A 920gr bullet and 220gr 2f usually regulates them nicely
Never had any cross.


3DogMike
(.400 member)
27/09/22 07:04 AM
Re: 10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

Quote:

I have had more than a couple paradox 10s here
A 920gr bullet and 220gr 2f usually regulates them nicely
Never had any cross.



gatsby, thanks for the input.

Have a 920 grain mould for a solid that I've not loaded up yet as well as the "on order" clone by Brooks moulds of the original H&H 875 grain hollow point…..bore guns seem pretty forgiving of minor variations of charge weight and bullet weight.
After all; heavy 12's, and the 10 & 8 are really "up close & personal" types.

- Mike


gatsby
(.375 member)
27/09/22 01:44 PM
Re: 10 bore Holland & Holland Paradox

True re bullet weights on these big pdxes but bullet configuration can cause some variation.
The bullets shown buy Curl has been a successfully used configuration in a number of 10 pdxes out to 100 yds.


Omnivorous_Bob
(.333 member)
30/09/22 11:59 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Years ago I got to shoot a Bland single 4 bore owned by Ray Meyer (I heard that it went to Alaska after Ray's passing)




Well, it's down in south central Montana these days. Drop a line if any of you gents are passing through that area and we'll go shoot.

On another note, I found that a reduced charge(120 grains vs a full charge at 137) of swiss 3F worked like magic in my 5 dram roundball 10, probably because it gives more room for better wads. Shoots to the sights and right at the advertised 1330fps.

Nice rifle too!!!! Those disc set strikers are a work of art.

Bob


3DogMike
(.400 member)
01/10/22 08:20 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

I often wondered who that Bland 4 Bore went to. Now I know.
For me that experience was a long time ago, I have very fond memories of working with Ray Meyer on the 8 Bore Greener that I had at the time. Getting to fire the Bland was icing on the cake.
- Mike


3DogMike
(.400 member)
16/10/22 12:47 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Have received the mould from “Brooks Moulds”, a duplicate of the bullet from the rather worn vintage H&H mould that came with the gun.
https://brooksmoulds.com/
As with my other Steve Brooks moulds it is a very fine job and casts exactly spot on .806" diameter and 875 grains cast of 1:20 mix
- Mike



DarylS
(.700 member)
16/10/22 03:07 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Nice! It is indeed a pleasure to work with really well made tools.

CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
17/10/22 12:08 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

You are well along the way to a torn rotator cuff and a detached retina!!!!!!


Curl


3DogMike
(.400 member)
17/10/22 12:57 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

You are well along the way to a torn rotator cuff and a detached retina!!!!!!


Curl



Hah…..'tis but a maidens caress.
(perhaps the maiden's name is Brunhild?)
- Mike


tinker
(.416 member)
17/10/22 02:29 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Very nice

With this new mould, will we be seeing a new range firing video?


3DogMike
(.400 member)
06/11/22 10:13 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Too freezing cold and snow to want to shoot, cast 30 of the 10 Bore Paradox instead.
Steve Brooks hollow point mould to clone the old Holland bullets from the vintage mould. 870 grains cast from 1:20 tin/lead. Steve's moulds are a joy to use.

"If" we get a warm spell I will try to get some shooting posted.
- Mike






DarylS
(.700 member)
06/11/22 01:01 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Now THAT is a nice mould. The captured HP pin is a wonderful invention. I didn't think any of the 1800's moulds had them, but I suppose Lee didn't invent the idea.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
06/11/22 08:11 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Youprovide inspiration that I should get mine shooting. I aim for by August next year as a finished project. God willing!

CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
12/11/22 11:29 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Too freezing cold and snow to want to shoot, cast 30 of the 10 Bore Paradox instead.
Steve Brooks hollow point mould to clone the old Holland bullets from the vintage mould. 870 grains cast from 1:20 tin/lead. Steve's moulds are a joy to use.

"If" we get a warm spell I will try to get some shooting posted.
- Mike











Mike,

You are getting there! Those are superb bullets and a great mould.

I was a little more hoggish when I cast for my H&H 10b Paradox.



It will take me a long time to shoot all those.

Here's my mould:




And my loading tools:




Now we need a range report!

Curl


3DogMike
(.400 member)
26/11/22 04:28 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Cold…..snow……not as tough as I used to be.
- Mike


93x64mm
(.416 member)
26/11/22 07:41 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

That is one chunk of lead you're throwing down range!
Great mould & perfect bullets, makes my .410" ones look tiny in comparison!


rigbymauser
(.400 member)
26/02/23 07:17 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

extract from " Big game shooting in upper Burma"(1911) by Evans.

"Page 188

As the circumstances under which I came to invest in a ‘400 high-velocity rifle, rather than one of heavier calibre, were somewhat unusual, it may be worth while to narrate them. For some years I had shot big game with a D.B. 10-bore Paradox gun by Holland and Holland, taking eight drams of black powder and a 2-oz. steel-cored bullet. This rifle was sighted to fifty yards, and was as accurate as a weapon of the sort could be. At sixty yards it could put a bullet into the centre of the lid of a cigar box, and could be relied on for all practical purposes up to eighty yards, beyond which distance accurate results could not be counted on. The steel-cored bullet gave a smashing blow; but powerful as the rifle was, it lacked the penetration of the’ ‘400 subsequently purchased".

Page 42

"I waited till his head was clear, and gave him the right barrel at about fifteen yards. I was using a 10-bore Paradox by Holland with a steel-cored bullet, and aimed low down at the base of the trunk about two feet below the bump. The smoke hung round me like a pall, but, stooping below, I saw to my dismay that he was not even checked. I had just time to step aside, so as to clear the smoke, and to give him the left barrel in the same place. This was enough for him, and brought him up when he was all but on me. He slid for some little distance with the impetus of his charge, as he rammed his great forefeet out in front of him to check himself. The next second he had wheeled round and crashed back into the jungle, but I had just time to jerk open the breech, slip in another cartridge, and give him one in the ear before he vanished. It was a very close thing. I suppose he was not five yards from me when he received the second bullet. After waiting a few moments to compose our nerves, I explained matters to the orderly, Allah Din, who was then new to the game but full of pluck. I knew the elephant would not go far, but would wait for us in the nastiest bit of jungle he could find".


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/02/23 08:23 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Rip roaring yarns.

DarylS
(.700 member)
27/02/23 01:08 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Yikes!

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
27/02/23 06:23 PM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

That sounds like a good book to read.

Is it online somewhere? Will do a search.

I've got to try this cigar box lid shooting! A cool target.


CJF
(.300 member)
25/10/23 03:40 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Mike -

I'm very late to the party and am just seeing your wonderful Paradox. Congratulations, belatedly. The mould is a work of art, and I love the "L" and "R" marked striker discs.

Have you had a chance to take this after game?


3DogMike
(.400 member)
25/10/23 07:49 AM
Re: H&H 10 bore update:

Quote:

Mike -
…..(snip)…..Have you had a chance to take this after game?



Hi Chris,
Regrettably there are no Buff, Rhino, Tiger, or Elephant around here in Colorado.
Have only shot paper targets and water filled milk jugs.
As well, this thing would be no fun to lug around for any distance, and I don’t know of any local gun bearers, so up and down in our mountains after Elk is out of the question for me.
Cheers, Mike



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