180pilot
(.224 member)
02/08/05 04:29 AM
12 bore bullets or molds

I would like any information on bullets for 12guage use.
I know of Dixie slugs here in the US .729 dia. 740 grains.
However, they say they will stop selling it as a reloading component on Sept 1. I don't see anything else that is made like the Dixie of hardened lead yet.



ALAN_MCKENZIE
(.400 member)
02/08/05 11:00 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Try Lyman.
They make a couple of moulds for 12 and 20 gauge and also have a mould for round ball...
Al


pwm
(.300 member)
09/08/05 02:39 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

best is to buy a real Paradox mould

DarylS
(.700 member)
10/08/05 06:07 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Round ball moulds of ANY size can be ordered with an e-mail to Jeff Tanner in the UK. He'll cut the mould, and mail it within 2 weeks, generally 1 week. Payments go to an address in California with information on that included with the mould.
: My 12 bore and larger RB moulds cost roughly $23.00 Us. The moulds are brass, fit Lyman or RCBS handles and have no sprue cutter. As they have a large "V" shaped cone at the top of the sprue, the balls are easily cast without any mess, and the sprue snips off with side cutters very easily. A quick brush with a rasp, and they're perfectly round without any mark of a sprue so loading is very easy.
: I worked up BP and smokeless loads for a 12 bore SXS smoothbore some time ago, with most excellent, accurate results.
: Round balls are an excellent 12 bore projectile and of course, much lighter than a Parodox ball. They were, of course, used prior to the invention of the elongated slug.
: For elephant hunting, perhap an original paradox mould should be obtained - I'd expect them to be enormously expensive. Round balls will most definitley work, though.


ALAN_MCKENZIE
(.400 member)
11/08/05 10:58 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

This mould came with a Holland and Holland SXS Paradox.
Solids weigh 860gns.
Hollow points weigh 810 gns .


BillfromOregon
(.333 member)
14/08/05 02:09 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

You can get Paradox moulds from NEI.

ALAN_MCKENZIE
(.400 member)
14/08/05 03:36 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Bill who is NEI.
Al


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
14/08/05 08:12 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Alan,

I'll offer that answer. Go to:

NEI Handtools

Good luck,

Curl


DarylS
(.700 member)
15/08/05 02:54 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Thanks for the address - found the 10 bore mould I need.

ALAN_MCKENZIE
(.400 member)
15/08/05 02:50 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Thanks Curl,now I have found somewhere else to spend (invest) my money.
Al


BillfromOregon
(.333 member)
15/08/05 05:01 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Fellas, there's also an outfit down your way -- CBC? -- that makes the old paradox molds for a good price. Search under ammo dump or some such name -- think it is in Australia.

Marrakai
(.416 member)
15/08/05 09:58 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Bill:
The mold-maker is Jim Allison, his business name is CBE, Cast Bullet Engineering. He made my nose-cavity Paradox brass-mold, pictured here:



It makes perfect Fosbery-style projectiles, 750gr without the cavity, 670gr with the cavity.



Dunno whether you fellas state-side would think Jim's molds are inexpensive, though. We're buying about 78 US cents to the dollar at the moment, as opposed to the last decade when you've been spoiled with good Aussie quality on the cheap!


BillfromOregon
(.333 member)
16/08/05 02:19 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Marrakai: That's the fella.

Retex
(.224 member)
02/09/05 08:46 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

That is an interesting Paradox cartridge constructed from a shotgun case. What type of tool did you use to crimp the case around the bullet?

Marrakai
(.416 member)
03/09/05 03:58 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

retex:
The case is chucked in a lathe and the crimp is applied with modified cir-clip pliers. As the crimp area heats up from friction, the pliers are gently squeezed resulting in the crimp you see in the photo.

I should add that we don't do this anymore, since Vic Pedersen has been making roll-crimpers as per the photo in Graeme Wright's book. The old collar-crimp is a bit time-consuming to set up each shell in the lathe, and can also come slightly loose if left in the second barrel during a couple of one-shot kills. Looks neat though! ...and according to the old catalogues, its more 'pukka' than the roll-crimp!

Although disgraceful to some, the use of modern plastic hulls is a convenience for high-volume buff and pig-hunting in northern Australia. Pick them up (literally!) at no cost, and no worries about losses in the field. With cast bullets, its the cheapest genuine 'big-bore' any of us will ever reload for!


cyrixoutside
(.224 member)
31/05/06 09:27 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Hi,

where can one buy the roll crimpers made by Mr Vic Pedersen.

Thank You

rajat


Marrakai
(.416 member)
01/06/06 12:35 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

If you lived in Australia, simply get Vic to make you one. If you live in the US or elsewhere, your local gunsmith or fitter'n'turner could probably knock one up inexpensively.

Where do you live, cyrixoutside? As a courtesy, why not update your personal profile to show your country at least. Then questions like this are easier for others to answer.


cyrixoutside
(.224 member)
01/06/06 09:18 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

hi,

sorry i had not realised, one could edit ones profile. now done

anyway i live in india, and no gunsmith out here can make a roll crimper.

maybe if i show him an actual one then perhaps he could copy it, but even that is unlikely.

so how does one contact vic, does he have a web page or email address.

thanks

rajat


450
(.300 member)
01/01/07 08:52 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

This my first topic on the nitro express. I am playing around with a Mossberg Slug master trying to duplicate pardox loads. I have received some parodox projectiles from a friend which to test prio to me ordering a mould from CBE, Sydney. These cast projectiles weigh 730 grains and have loaded them in to winchester casees with a plastic powder wad and two felt wads with ADI AP70N. The results at 25 yards was a 1 1/4 inch 3 shot group. Pleasantly surprised.

I have not been able to get the round balls to shoot as good yet.

Does anyone have any suggested loads to try. I know it is not a Holland & Holland, but it is mine.


DarylS
(.700 member)
09/01/07 03:14 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

450- Is the slugmaster rifled? If so, round balls probably won't shoot as well in it as a smoothbore. The twist is way too fast for them at any worthwhile velocity. If you slowed them down to about 800fps, they'd probably shoot accurately, but be of no use.
: A friend of mine and I are going to rifle a couple 12 bore barrels this coming summer with something around 80" to 100". These very much slower twists will deliver very good accuracy with round balls. The 35" twist (or therebouts) in the rifled 12 bores today, is about right for a very short sub-12 bore bullet - like a 450gr. .50 cal. BP rifle slug. The full sized paradox bullet would be better yet in about a 50" to 80" twist.


450
(.300 member)
09/01/07 11:05 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl S
Yes the slug master has a fully rifled barrel. I do not know what the twist is. Last night I fired three shots made up in Brass 12 bore cases, 150 grains of fff black powder, card wad, two felt wads and a 570 grain ball. Fired at 40 yards I had 3 large holes in a triangular formation in about 2". It is great to shoot these loads. There was a metal swinging target begind my target boar and the 5" round plate was about 3/8 thick. One of the balls hit it after going through the target. It actually knocked the stand over. Very spectacular though all the smoke. I will chrongraph these loads and it might give me a indication of what velocity works.
Next is to try some parodox slugs when I get my Mould.

Thanks for you help.


DarylS
(.700 member)
10/01/07 06:58 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

You accuracy with round balls sounds just great. I am somewhat surprised though. Of course, in this hobby of ours, nothing is absolute.
; My own load deveopement in a 12 bore double with smooth .725" bores was most enlightening.
; Somewhere I had read of the 150gr. charge being the intermediate charge for 12's with the lighter charge around 110gr. and the heavy at 191gr.(7 drams) My short barreled double managed the heavy charge in the 1,600fps range with around 1,350fps for the intermediate charge. I used the plastic base wads from spent trap loads, one on top of the powder, one cup-up to hold the .715" ball in the centre of the bore. This system worked well, but a card wad between the powder and bottom cup was required to prevent the BP from melting and coating the bore with plastic.
; I used a coned crimp head for forming the plastic hulls over the ball. This worked very well indeed, and prevente the balls from moving in the unfired bore, even with several shot in the other for a test. With smokeless loads, the bottom card isn't necessary, but intermediate fibre wads were used to take up the extra space afforded by the rreduced capacity smokeless powder. I used SR4756 and SR7625 due to their lower pressure developement in shot loads. I worked up to the same velocities that BP gave with no pressure related problems - about 1,550fps with smokeless for maximum velocities. One thing of note, is the recoil was much reduced when using smokeless powder, even though the 'power' was the same. With smokeless loads, I was able to use a full normal crimp. I marked the bases with a felt pen to differenciate them from shot loads.
: A friend and I are going to rifle a couple 12 bore barrels next summer, maybe pumps for experimental load developement. I am looking for a camp-bear load as they tend to be a problem where I guide, especially when moose are on the meat pole. The twist rates will be somewhere between 90" and 120" for round ball use only. The use of round balls in both smooth and rifled barrels increases the penetration and attendent killing power of the shotgun, be they rifled or smooth. Good enough for hunting in India and Africa, good enough for me here in B.C. Incidently, Wheel WEight alloy makes a marvelous penetrator, whereas pure lead expands a lot. A 12 bore bal removed from under the hide, off side of a moose, revealed a disk of lead, full weight, but over 1-1/8" in diameter. The WW ball is for big bear.
: They are spetacular smackers, aren't they. Shooting heavy steel plates alongside someone with a 7mm or .300 Mangleum, really opens their eyes to what momentum really is.


450
(.300 member)
11/01/07 01:42 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl s

Man, to be able to smack a moose or bear with a couple of these balls would certainly get the excitement flowing.

If I get mine going properly, I will be heading of after pigs. If I get a chance to head up North, I might try a scub Bull or a Camel.

It would be interesting to see the difference in performance in the rifled barrel as against the smooth bore. My cast balls (oops) are .735 and the bore of my gun is .729. and weight 570 grains and rolled crimped. I cronographed a smokeless test load which came in at 1250 FPS, this may be able to be improved on. I did not find the recoil of the 150 grns of BP to bad, more of a great shove.

I hope to be testing paradox projectiles by the end of next week. Half the fun is working up loads to get them to shoot. I will let you know how they work out.

Once this is working, I will start on the loads for a my Rugar #1 that is being rechambered to 450 nitro 3 1/4. That will be another thread.

Let me know how the rifled barrels go.

Thanks for your help.

450


Omnivorous_Bob
(.333 member)
11/01/07 04:24 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

"Last night I fired three shots made up in Brass 12 bore cases, 150 grains of fff black powder, card wad, two felt wads and a 570 grain ball. "

450, I just chronoed some 700gn balls over 145 FFFg last weekend in my 10 and was getting an even 1300fps. I'd imagine your loads are in the 1500-1550 range, which is smokin!!
Keep us posted on your progress.

Bob


DarylS
(.700 member)
12/01/07 09:53 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

450- I'd expect there are some powders available to you in the similar burning rate as our 4756 is.
: This powder allows for 8,000LUP loads with 1-1/4 ounces of shot. That's where I started. The wads and ball produce less friction in the bore (I believe) than a round ball, so I was able to increase the charges a bit, chronographing all the way, stopping at 1,550fps. with the 545gr. ball.
: When we get our barrels rifled, I expect to have Jeff Tanner make me the right sized ball.
: Friends of mine used undersized balls at 684" and 466gr. cast in wheelweights with cloth patches in their 12 bore full choked guns. These which 5"groups at 50 yards, double beads only for sights. This loading was used on several big bull moose, with good effect, while duck hunting.
; It may be possible to reduce pressure and gain accuracy without any leading by experimenting with slightly undersize balls and patchse as they did. I'd personally expect 2" groups at 50 yards, maybe better, especially with sights.
: Good luck on the hogs.
: 1,300 fps with 700gr. balls sounds great Bob.


450
(.300 member)
15/01/07 09:50 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Omnivorous Bob and Daryl S.

I am waiting for some new cases before I do more testing as the cut down plastic ones become too short and the once fired are hard to roll crimp. I will look at the other powders you mentioned.
I will chrono the loads to see what they are doing. A 10 bore sounds even better. Very rare out here. The most important thing I want is accuracy. As you said Daryl, I would be happy with 2" at 50 yards.
Be back soon


DarylS
(.700 member)
18/01/07 04:36 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Looking forward to seeing your results, 450.
: Since shooting the heavy recoiling bore rifles can be a challenging affair, I've come to the conclusion that sitting down and firing off 10, 20 or more rounds from the bench while testing loads, can be wearing on the nerves & give false results. The most-important 1st and 2nd shots led me to try a different approach.
: I've tried, with good success, in sitting down, and shooting a left and right, or couple from a kicking single, then changing targets and guns, shooting something easier and totally different, like a small centrefire with scope, concenrating on trigger squeeze and getting tiny groups until time to clean and or let it cool down. After that, I go back to the double (or single) and fire a couple more on top of the first two. I find more times than not, I don't get the flyers that make me think there's something wrong with the load & get a truer representation of what the big one is really doing. We are there to test and develope accurate loads, not to test endurance.
: This system works well(for me), even with a little .458.
: Another thing I found, is to grip the forewood in the left hand as if in a hunting position. The left had rests on the bag merely to steady the sights and get a good hold for load and sight testing. This changes the recoil impetus to the same as if in hunting situations. This goes for all kickers. My .458 needed re-sighting to have bullet impact actually be true. I had to raise bullet impact by 4" compared to the bullet impact if the gun was allowed to bounce off the bags. Some guns create even high impacts if not held, like a little .45 Colt M94 Trapper. It delivered excellent 1-1/2" groups at 100yards, whereas if allowed to bounch with traditional bench techniques, gave erronious grouping, flyers and extremely high impacts, 12" over what a held gun did. BTW - there's no flies on a 320gr. to 340gr. cast and properly sized rifle bullet doing 1,700fps from a 16" barrel. It took 2 elk for me in good fashion. Had I not re-tested with proper holoding techniques, I'd have missed.


450
(.300 member)
18/01/07 07:37 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl S.

Thanks for that advice. I will try that.

It also explains a couple of things that happened on the weekend. I sighted in my Rolling Block 45.70 with 300 grain Hornady's and 70 grains of BP. Sighted it in over the bench resting it on the sand bag. Ripper. Then when shooting it off hand in competition, it shot the group 3" low at 50 yards. The same thing happened with my Martini 310 Cadet. It looks like I will be conducting some experiments at the range on the next visit. Will let you know how it goes.


Yogi000
(.333 member)
27/01/07 07:16 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

I just ordered a round ball mould from Tanner in .724. The bores of my double barreled smoothbore slug gun are .724 so I am hoping for improved accuracy over the .715 round balls I bought 'off-the-shelf' and was not ecstatic with their 50 yard accuracy.

I intend to utilize some of the excellent advice from people here to mold up some wheel weighted round balls and by playing with some wads hopefully get a deep penetrating accurate show stopper for game such as bear with this new RB that matches the bore diameter. I still plan to use the carriage (the spent shot shell with petals cut off and flipped upside down) to hold the RB on its flight down the barrel.

In a smoothie the round ball is just so darn.... er... pragmatic... Can you make things any simpler? And if the round ball has worked for decades why are so many modern shooters poo-poo-ing it's ability to smack down a bear or a moose or a hog or even other Dangerous Game? Does the critter with big teeth really die faster with a boolit to the brain or a massive RB to the brain when it is charging at 20 feet?

I think the RB is a beautiful thing. .724 diameter in pure lead should be about how many grains? I know WW addition will be a tad lighter but still a lotta momentum when they strike.


DarylS
(.700 member)
30/01/07 03:06 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

.724" should weigh almost 600gr. in Ww metal and well over that in pure lead.
: People 'poo poo' the RB as you say, Yogi, due to lack of knowledge and of merely repeating 'things' they hear, as in "punkin balls are inaccurate". Before one can honestly say these things and bear listening to, they must try them out to the best they can offer, then make a decision. Same goes for the current 'trend' to bash the .458 WMag.
: Factory loaded in shotshells as a .690" diameter in a 12 bore was the main cause for round balls being inaccurate, along with the use of normal card wads. The card wads don't hold the ball in the middle of the bore, so it bounces back and forth in it's travel down the bore, hense inaccurate flight.
: With plastic cup wad bases facing forwards, the smaller balls can be accurate as the cup holds the ball in the middle. This is the method I used and it works. Cut-down steel shot wads are possibly really good for this, as much heavier built and they're stronger. My RB success was with range pickup at the trap club. The don't have to be pretty to work. I put one cup down on the powder, one cup up to hold the ball centred. I used cards or fire inbetween depending on the column needed to get proper crimp height. Standard star crimps worked for me.
: A solid round ball is very much superior to a hollow based 'Foster' slug in penetrative power.
: A .724" ball will exit a moose if driven at 1,500fps. For such a large surface to punch thorugh that elastic hide on the far side, is really somthing and demonstrates wonderful penetration, something most modern expanding rifle bullets won't do, even with their higher velocities and much smaller diameters.
: I tell you, there is little in the modern ctg. line, that staggers a big game animal like a 12 bore round ball. They are rather decisive. The big "WHOK" when they hit is really something to hear.


Yogi000
(.333 member)
31/01/07 06:09 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl---

As always your input is valuable. Thank you.

I was guestimating but glad to hear I underestimated. I like knowing the .724 solid lead round balls should come out to be approx 600 grains!

600 grains at 1500 fps should be quite a whacker. The Brenneke's are about that weight, so if I can get a round ball at that same weight flying POA I think I'm well set for stopper shotgun. On hand I have two different powders: PB and Super Field. I have a bunch of Fiocchi Hulls that come with Fiocchi 616 primers. The last time I loaded up some .715 round balls I used 32 grains of PB and according to Ballistic Products that should have delivered about 1450 fps.

Any better (slighty faster) hull or powder combo that I could use other than the PB powder?

I hear yout testimony to the staggering power of a punkin' ball. I know you have heard a few of them hit moose meat.


Yogi000
(.333 member)
08/02/07 07:53 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Is there a difference in the diameter of a 12 bore gun compared to a 12 gauge shotgun?

Obviously most shotguns have chokes but excluding the choke restriction.

Also I noted 450 said his RB's measured .735 while his bores measured .729, which would indicate a .006" size difference where the RB is BIGGER than the bore it is being fired through.... I thought .003 was about the max you could have a RB oversized... Will the lead actually deform that much to allow such an oversized "slug" to squeeze down and shoot out of a smaller-than-ball-diameter bore?


DarylS
(.700 member)
10/02/07 03:12 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

In 1910, the nominal size for a 12 bore shotgun, is .725", .727" and .729". Different sources differ in specs. Today, with special boring to relieve recoil, etc, back boring, whatever, many run around .735" to .740".
: 12 bore rifles can run from about .730" to .750" on the grooves depending on depth and orginal bore size. This is how I understand the situation. There were no SAMMI specs., although good gun makers were very capable of making all their high-grade guns to 'exact' sizes if ordered so. Most good quality guns came with ball or bullet moulds for that particular gun and some even had swages for exact fit of bullets for the barrel.
: With damascus barrels, sometimes there would be irregualrities or inclusion, pits in the weld or other annomlies which required additonal boring, which enlarged the bore some to considerably. I am not aware of 11 bore rifles - they were either 12+ or 10 bore. Seems to me, some guns had marks on the table or bottoms of the slightly oversize 12 bore barrels with a + sign along with the 12 to show whether the bore was larger than standard.
: Were the bores of RB's gun .727" or was the groove diameter .729"? .006", which is .003" per side is considerably oversize for a .729" groove diameter. I suspect the gun would prefer a smaller ball, perhaps .730" at most.
; If the ball is soft, it will reduce to fit, but will raise pressure and change harmonics. My best accuracy from smoothbores has been with balls of correct size to the bore.
: Look to the cape guns and paradox rifles, with a ball or quite substancial slug traveling over 1,000fps when hitting the rifled choke at the end of the barrel. Swaging the ball into the rifling at the breech upon inital firing would be less hard on the gun, I am sure, certainly less hard on the soldered together barrels. I would size (swage) the balls or use groove diameter balls.
: When I cast up balls for my friends to use in their pump action duck guns, we made sure they could push the undersized balls and patches through their chokes easily. This led to impressive groups at 50 yards (considering the double barrel-beads), and more than one dead moose, shot from the duck blind.


450
(.300 member)
12/02/07 10:28 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds


I have not got any of the orginal RB that I started with, so I cannotre measure them. The new mould cast round balls 0f .732-.733. and they weigh 560 grains. I will be heading up to the rainge next week with these to see how they go. I will get back toyouwith the results.


450
(.300 member)
08/04/07 09:47 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

After fair bit of testing in the Marlin, (not Mossberg as originally stated) I have worked up some nice loads.
At the range yesterday,I fired some 732 cast lead balls loaded in new winchest cases, plastic wad with the petals cut off and a 1/2 felt wad over load of AP 100 N and a roll crimp. The bestgroup I got over the benchwas 1 1/2" for three shots. They averaged 2 1/4 at 50 yards. I am trying to get access to a chronograph to see how quick thye are going.

With a 726 grain parodox projectile I have settled on AP100N with the above wadsfor groups of 2 1/2 inches at fifty yards. They are comfortable to shoot.

AP100N is I think not quite as slow as blue dot. As soon as Iget to a Chronograph I will post the velocities.

Thanks for you advice Daryl s.

Wayne


DarylS
(.700 member)
10/04/07 02:00 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Wayne - sounds very good. I know Hogdon rifle powders are made there - how about the shotgun powders? I think it's 'Longshot' listed in loading manuals for shot loads, shows velocities to 1,585fps with 1-1/4oz(or more) shot. Even at that high velocity, I think they were loaded to 11,000PSI, which is still well under max pressure in a typical modern shotgun. This powder should do well with RB loads in a modern shotgun or nitro proofed paradox gun.
; A .715" ball of pure lead weighs 545gr., which is 1-1/4 ounces, so the .724" ball should weigh perhaps 580gr. Drop about 30gr. to 40gr. for WW alloy.
; Remember that the normal paradox load was doing roughly 1,300fps, same as the standard 12 bore load. The heavy 12 bore load, using 190gr. black powder, did just over 1,500fps. That 1,500fps kicks pretty hard in an 8 pound gun, but can be duplicated with smokeless powder(in nitro guns) which kicks about 1/2 (or less) as hard - seems incredible to see the same velocity readings on the chronograph, with so little recoil. The BP loads will get your attention & FEEL so much more powerful. What they do, is to throw copious amounts of smoke andthe recoil gives the feeling of immense power - which is fun in itself. Perhaps the BP loads show us the 'real' power. I do know the game feels it too.


450
(.300 member)
10/04/07 11:00 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl s
I am unable to get Hodgdon Longshot here. There is no comparison on the ADI powder chart. AP 100 has the same burning rate as SR 4756, which I cannot get here either. I cannot find any loading data for this powder. AP 100 is slightly quicker than Hodgdon HS.6. ADI do not list AP 100 in any shotshell loads so you can see why it is taking a while to come up with some comparable loads.
AP70N has the same burning rate as Universal and SR 7625. With 1 1/4 loads 24.9 grains of AP70N is listed at 1300 FPS with 11358 PSI.This is the only loading data reference I have to compare the RB loads and what information you have greatly supplied.

In Wright's book Shooting the English Double Rifle there is a section on the Parodox. One load is 760 grain paradox projectile loaded with 34.5 AP100 with Winch cases and wads for 1100 Fps. Pressure is listed as 3 tons. What does that work out in PSI. I have used this load as a basis for working up some loads. AP70N gives high velocity but is 3.25 tons. It is hard to compare it to modern loading data without knowing the comparison of Tons per square inch and pound per square inch. Can you help. I would like to keep my loads to a maximum of 11.000 PSI.

Another factor when comparing the paradox gun to the Marlin is that the Parodox is smooth bore until the last 4 " or so of barrel where as the Marlin is fully rifled. How will this effect pressure?

As a side note, my daughter who is in Vancouver for 5 months tells me it is a beautiful country. I hope to get there one day.

Bob.
I would be happy with 1300 fps out my 560 grain RB. I have a chronograph on the way to help with load developement. As soon as the results come in I will post them here.
Wayne


DarylS
(.700 member)
11/04/07 02:41 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Wayne - they are talking about long tons here, as in 2,200pounds per, so the pressures they are talking about are well under modern shotshell smokeless levels.
: I did well with both 4756 and 7625, 4756 being the slower burning of the two. I was so impressed with the velocities Hogdon was getting from it's longshot, that I mentioned it just hoping something was similar for you. Of course, the main problems come from getting proper wad pressure and getting the various slower powders to ignite and burn properly. Plastic wads supposedly eliminated the wad pressure loadings with shot, but since we use built up wad columns in RB loads to get proper height, we're back to loading the way the 'old timers' had to, wiht wad pressure.
: Vancouver is OK if you like crowded areas, wierd people and rain. I prefer fresh air and sunshine. I lived in the Vancouver area for a number of years. It is truely beautiful when the sun shines, though.
: When working from load data derived from shotshells and shot, we must tread softly, and carefully. A chronograph helps us stop when we've arrived at a suitable level of power.
; I would check out all or the data I could on available powders and choose one (or more) that developed the best velocities at the lowest pressures. These will normally show as being high-grain weight charges. ie: 20gr. giving max load at say 1,200fps(trap speed) with 1-1/8oz at 11,000 pounds compared to 28.0gr. giving 1,340fps with 1-1/4oz at 8,800 pounds pressure. The powder developing 1,340fps at 8,800pounds would be perfect for developing ball loads, whereas the 'faster' burning powder isn't.
; Forgot to mention - re: rifling - a fully rifled bore should devlope more breech pressure than a paradox or rifled choke on a smooth bore.


450
(.300 member)
11/04/07 07:32 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl s

In relation to wad pressure, I am using a winchester 1 1/8 oz plastic wad with the petals cut off over the powder and a 1/2 felt wad on top of that which gives me the correct height in the 2 3/4 case for the roll crimp. I am using an old MEC to give me wad pressure. I have ordered a Chronograph to help with the load development.
It is very hard to judge when you have reached a maximum load as there are no pressure signs like you get in a rifle, so I am treading very careful. The load given in Wrights Book on shooting doubles if it is 3 tons = 6,600 pound taking into account that the Marlin is fully rifled, should give me a safety margin if I use that load.

My Paradox mould will be here by the end of the month. .729 and a nominal weight of 735 grains. It is a hollow nose. This should not be to much different with the one I have borrowed.

Since ADI has been producing powder for the home market, it has been difficult to get any other brand. I can Alliance powders, but IMR, Hodgdon winchester are a thing of the past now out here.

In your opinion, what would be a safe achievable velocity for the RB in the Marlin (Fully rifled barrel) taking into account that it will be used on pigs, deer and competition as a bore gun. I was going to look at 1300fps, but would be interested in you view.

Wayne


DarylS
(.700 member)
12/04/07 05:01 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

: I wouldn't be afraid to tackle most big game with a 1,300fps load with a solid round ball. You should be able to approach and possibly beat 1,500fps. I did, wihtin what appeared to be safe pressures.
: That 1,500fps load is a smasher, much more than needed for deer and perhaps pigs, but then, pigs grow teeth and a shield plate over the vitals, perhaps depending on the pigs in question. I've no experience with wild hogs, only the domestic types running up to 800-900 pounds. They'd take a lot of killing, I'd think - definitely a 1,500fps load animal.
: I'd think the RB for a rifled barrel should be groove diameter exactly, with a hard card or cupped plastic wad underneath it. With the fully rifled barrel, a card is probably all that's necessary.
; Lyman makes and sells a roll crimper that is used with a drill press or electric drill. The spinning action turns the plastic over nicely to perform perfect crimps, with practise.


Yogi000
(.333 member)
14/04/07 01:27 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

A friend of mine molded up some round ball slugs for me with a .724 mold using lead with very high tin content. The slugs weigh 27.3 grams which is incredibly leight! The .715 diameter round ball all lead slugs I have weight 28.5 grams.

These high tin slugs seem very hard as well. They look beautiful but it is quite difficult to dent or scratch them. I am guessing 30% tin??? I don't know for sure but they are so light they have to have a high percentage of tin verses LEAD.

I am reluctant to shoot these out of my .724 smooth bore shotgun because I am concerned about scratching the barrels.

Is this a valid concern, do you think?


DarylS
(.700 member)
15/04/07 06:33 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

It's unlikely you'll scratch the bores as good steel can be shot with steel jacketed solids (Rigby) from the turn of the century and later double rifles.
: Their light weight will reduce SD and BC, along with reducing penetration. They'll slow faster and will be more susceptable to wind drift.
: They would be more valuable for adding to a WW mix or with pure lead to increase the flow and help with filling out the mould. I wouldn't shoot them, but I also wouldn't be afraid of a modern steel barrel being harmed by them.


Yogi000
(.333 member)
17/04/07 03:49 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Thanks for the reinforcement. I'll use your advice and NOT load them... They are pretty to look at, but so darn light I couldn't actually bring myself to load them up.

The idea about putting them in with a pure lead batch to increase the tin a couple of percent is a very wise idea.

I kept telling this guy I wanted a HEAVY round ball... one that is heavier than the .715 diameter RB's... Instead these larger round balls are actually significantly LIGHTER!!!


DarylS
(.700 member)
18/04/07 12:09 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Many years ago, I followed the old time practise of adding murcury to the pure lead for hardening and increasing the specific gravity all in one fell blow. While it increased the weight some small amount, it didn't seem to make them harder. I would not try it today, seeing as how the fumes are so poisonous and all.
: Adding a small amound of antimony is the best method of increasing hardness, as tin is slow in doing so. 5% antimony will harden pure lead more than 10% tin mix, yet will be heavier as well.
: My .684" balls went from 480gr.pure lead, down to 466gr. in straight WW t's. This drop of 14gr. wasn't much and they shot identically to pure lead. Blowing through both shoulders of a bull moose with hardly a mark on the ball, constitutes good performance for a 'solid'. Can you picture a 12 factory slug doing that?


450
(.300 member)
26/04/07 12:55 PM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds


Shot my RB loads through the Chonograph yesterday. 560 grn RB 1200 fps with really good accuracy.
The 726 grain Parodox slug was doing 1100 fps with accuracy not quite as good as the round ball. These were all loaded with ADI AP100 which is just slightly quicker than Blue Dot.

The load consist of new Winchester 2 3/4" cases, powder, WW plastic wad with the petals cut off over the powder, 1/4 felt wad, projectile and then roll crimped. With the round ball deviation over four shots was 9fps. With the slugs it 48 fps. A bit more reloading still to be done.

Wayne


Al_in_Mi
(.224 member)
27/04/07 01:44 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Wayne, have any pics of the paradox slug?

DarylS
(.700 member)
27/04/07 02:27 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Cool Wayne - but that round ball is not going very fast. With such a slow powder, you should be able to develop some good ballistics - time will tell.
: Say - with Hodgdon powders made in your Country, how about 'Longshot', shotgun powder? Perhaps that is what you are using? It's shotshell published data here shows 1 3/8 Oz. shot doing well over 1,500fps. That being the case, you should be able to easily match that with round balls. They will make a truely a great load.


450
(.300 member)
01/05/07 08:24 AM
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds

Daryl S

Yep, more experimenting. At least I have got some where to start now. I will look up "longshot" but there is no ADI load listed for 1 3/8 ounce loads. It all stops at 1 1/4 ounce and the slower powders AP100 does not get a mention in the shotgun section. I got it out of Wrights Book on "Shooting the English double Barrel Rifle". I Will keep you posted.

Al in Mi

If you look at an earlier post on this thread by Marrakai you will see a picture of the Mould and the Paradox projectile used. My mould is arriving next week.

Wayne



Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved