49NORTH
(.224 member)
23/01/18 08:57 AM
Greener Bore Rifle

I'm almost ready for my first test run, I ended up ordering a ball mold of .775 dia, I cast some balls out of straight wheel weight lead for a start, hopefully they are soft enough to bump up,the ball goes though the right barrel with just a little push from a wooden dowel, the left barrel is not as tight. I have old never fired Kynoch thin wall brass that fits the chambers perfectly. There is a bit of an issue with a primer that will fit properly, I have settled on a small magnum pistol that fits snugly but is not deep enough for the pocket. When I dry fire them they push down into the pocket, I don't know if this will cause any problems.
The first test loads are 2 1/2 drams of 2F Goex black powder (all I can find where I live), 1 bottle cap shaped over powder card (harvested from a 8ga industrial shells), 2- 1/2 inch fiber wads, 1 of which is lubed, then a plain flat nitro card and a Ballistic Products plastic 10 ga gas seal for the ball to sit on then a little bit of COW to stabilize the ball ,then the whole thing is sealed with waterglass glue.
Any thought or comments?
I copied this from another site I posted it on, I felt this is a better place to get my questions answered.
The gun is a WW Greener 10 ga choke bored rifle, 10 ga at the breach and 12 ga at the muzzle, made circa 1887


tinker
(.416 member)
23/01/18 10:10 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

First I wonder what is the groove diameter of your chokes.
Next I wonder what you are using for lube on that lubed wad.

I'll guess you'll need more powder, also additional lube somewhere in that column.

How does that ball fit in the thin brass case?
Is it loose?
Would that ball fit in a paper or plastic case?


Wayne59
(.400 member)
23/01/18 10:16 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

JMHO but a ball cast of pure wheel weight won't bump up to fit anything and your priming arrangement sounds worrisome.

49NORTH
(.224 member)
23/01/18 11:43 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I slugged the barrels and they are .775 at the muzzle.
I melted down some black gold lube and soaked my fiber wads in it.
To little powder? more is better?
Ball not real tight in the case, but not sloppy loose.
No other cases fit the chambers, I have tried,
Should I be using pure lead, will it bump up or swage if it needs to/
Should I try and change the primer to a 209 style?


DarylS
(.700 member)
23/01/18 11:43 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

WW is likely too hard, if of the cramp-on type. The stick-ons are usually pure lead, or zinc - do not use zinc.

Zinc are easily identified by colour and feel & many have a Z on them.

50/50 WW (Canadian) and pure lead is a good mix and will slug fine - about brinel 7 or so, maybe 8.

I would anneal that brass before firing it.

Small rifle primers have longer cups than small pistol primers. CCI450 magnums are what I would use, or Rem. 7 1/2's - both of these also have the thickest cups.

Good luck, have fun. OH - if you can find some steel shot wads, cutting the wads off just above the WEB, will give you a cup - that will hold an undersized ball perfectly centred in the bore.
With black powder, you should have a seal (over powder wad) between plastic and black powder, as the BP will melt the plastic and coat/foul the bore.
The use of a barrier wad will eliminate this. The plastic wad will 'take' the rifling and give the ball a spin, just fine.
I would first, soften the alloy, then try them for it.

A wad with a hole, like an overpowder card wad or cushion wad with central 3/8" hole (doesn't have to be deep), set on top of your powder wads, will also hold the ball in the middle of the bore, for improved accuracy.

Good luck, keep us posted.


DarylS
(.700 member)
23/01/18 11:50 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

SRY- missed this. Well done.

"a Ballistic Products plastic 10 ga gas seal for the ball to sit"

I also think you need more powder. My WW Greener's book lists 10 drams, ie: 275gr. powder and a 677gr. ball. Since a pure lead 10 bore ball weighs 700gr., I assume this is a lead/tin mix, which is softer than WW, btw.

I really do think you should increase your charge of GOEX 2F to about 7 drams (191gr.) - or even that out to 200gr.

If 200gr. is too much for you, then at least try 150gr. 2F.That is only 5 1/2 drams, just over 1/2 a normal charge.

That little load you list will likely not develop enough pressure to obturate pure lead.

2 1/2drams (68gr.) is a light load for a 20 bore.


MikeRowe
(.333 member)
23/01/18 01:09 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I would start on the light side with the load, somewhere along the line you indicated the twist rate, which made me think it's for a lighter load. Many of these rifles shot a surprisingly moderate charge, especially if the rifle is built to a lighter weight.

Make sure your lube is not petroleum based, it will turn the fouling to an asphaltum-like state if it is.

Try to get some Olde Eynsford powder if you can.


Wayne59
(.400 member)
23/01/18 01:35 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

You need to loose the cushion wads. Even pure lead wont slug up to the bore with that many cushion wads. Are your cases originally Berdan primed or Boxer primed. If the priming is Berdan primed than you will have address this before using. You can order brass cases made for your gun from Rocky Mountain cartridge Co. If your cases are 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" you can order some from Track of the wolf for about 7.00 each. That will solve your primer problem.

tinker
(.416 member)
23/01/18 02:32 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

My Purdey 20 bore rifle runs 2-1/2 drams, my lighter 16 bore rifles run 3 to 3-1/2 drams, the WR 16 bore rifle seems to like 5 drams.

Two and a half for a ten bore rifle is a waste of time and powder.

Also, don't bother with anything but known-good black powder lube in your black powder bore rifle loads. You'll do well with lots of it.
You want a soft and pliable -even moist- fouling for consistent shot-to-shot performance.
Leave it dry and you'll frag those wad cups, killing any chance of accurate groups.


DarylS
(.700 member)
24/01/18 04:58 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:

I slugged the barrels and they are .775 at the muzzle.
I melted down some black gold lube and soaked my fiber wads in it.
To little powder? more is better?
Ball not real tight in the case, but not sloppy loose.
No other cases fit the chambers, I have tried,
Should I be using pure lead, will it bump up or swage if it needs to/
Should I try and change the primer to a 209 style?




I assume this is groove dia. with what bore dia.?

Yes - more powder in a light, rifled choke gun - likely more in the 10 bore shotshell range - 4 to 4 1/2 drams, which is 110gr. to 123gr.

Pure lead is more likely to obturate than ANY other mix.

The Lyman BP Gold is a good BP lube, worked for me in ctg. as well as for bullets in a long barreled flint lock rifle.

Good suggestions on the new brass by the guys, however I'd likely try the small rifle magnum primers first, if the brass you have is OK.

I would not think the brass is set for Berdan primers (CENTRAL PEG + 2 side HOLES) or perhaps they were changed, by being drilled out and cups lined like some .577/450 brass I found a long time ago. It's gone now - gave it to someone 30 years ago.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
24/01/18 07:58 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Daryl, This is a choke bored rifle, it was proved in the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House at 11 bore at the breach and 12 bore at the muzzles which should be .729, but when I drive a soft lead slug through it comes out at .775.
I just re cast my balls to 50% wheel weight and 50% pure lead as per your previous suggestion.
The Kynoch cases I have are new unfired but are Berdan primed, I still need to figure out a better primer system I agree with Tinker, it is worrisome.


Huvius
(.416 member)
24/01/18 10:47 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:


The Kynoch cases I have are new unfired but are Berdan primed, I still need to figure out a better primer system I agree with Tinker, it is worrisome.




I would think that converting the brass to take shotgun primers would be the way to go with these.
This is described in Wright’s book but pretty straightforward generally.


DarylS
(.700 member)
24/01/18 10:53 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I have seen Berdan primed cases, in the past, with the stem removed, then a cup that will hold a standard Large Rifle primer soldered in to the hole. The original hole might have been enlarged slightly.

If you drive a slug through the choke, I take it the major (largest) diameter is .775". What is the measurement from groove to groove. That is the bore size.
The proofing marks may be out-of-sinc with that that gun is now.
12 bore would be .729" to .730", yes.
11 bore is .751"
10 bore is .775"

You said you tried small pistol primers and that they fit snugly? I have not seen such small Berdan primers before - of course there must be for small ctgs. just that I have never seen them on large cases.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
24/01/18 11:04 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I would love to use 209s , the pocket is only 11/64 dia,is it as simple as drilling and countersinking for a 209? I would lose the pocket entirely and the primer would be in the powder, does it matter?

tinker
(.416 member)
24/01/18 11:12 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I'd like to see all the proofs.
I'd like to see the muzzles.
I'd like to see the slug as passed through the choked bores, from breech to and out of the muzzles.

I'd also like to see the brass.

Can you post photos?

Will likely want to see other things, but that's a start.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
24/01/18 11:22 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I will,get them up tomorrow, I just spent the last 3 days emailing with Graham Greener, he provided all he could for info but nothing for reloading.

Wayne59
(.400 member)
24/01/18 02:07 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

What are the length of your cases. There are remedy's for your primer problems but they will probably require machining.

49NORTH
(.224 member)
25/01/18 05:08 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle









Sorry having some sizing issues.......


Wayne59
(.400 member)
25/01/18 06:19 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Thank you for the photo's. Your cases are 2 3/4". Measured from the bottom of the rim to the top of the case. That is good because cases are available and would solve your priming troubles. I notice your bores are rifled with what looks like a very slow twist and very shallow rifling but your slug shows no rifling. You need to use a pure lead slug to slug a bore. If the slug you use is slightly smaller than the bore dia. you have to upset the slug to get accurate measurements. If it is slightly larger than the bore (I would recommend it as thin as those barrels are made on the end) Than you can drive the slug through. This might explain some of the measurements you have listed.

tinker
(.416 member)
25/01/18 08:03 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Are those really narrow lands or are those really narrow grooves?
Is that rifled choke polygonal?

Barrels look really thin at the muzzles too.

What's the barrel weight and length?
Is there a known history of it running as a choke-bore rifle in this configuration?

As noted before, it needs to be slugged with an over-size slug of soft lead.


Wayne59
(.400 member)
25/01/18 10:18 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I beleave the lands are narrow and the groves are wide. It also looks like it may be an uneven number of lands and grooves witch makes it a little harder to measure.

DarylS
(.700 member)
25/01/18 10:22 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Appears to me, to have had the rifling reamed out which would explain the measured diameter and lack of rifling depth that could possibly grab and spin a ball or bullet exiting at speed.

Look at the thickness of the muzzle's walls.


Omnivorous_Bob
(.333 member)
25/01/18 05:19 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

North, I've got a few thoughts/ideas,

-As pointed out, bump up a round ball by smacking it with a hammer a few times so you have to gently drive it through the bores then measure. Do it with both barrels and from both ends. My ~1870 10-bore is choked ~.003 for the last few inches. I only discovered that when slugs tapped in the muzzles fell freely toward the chambers after just a few inches of tapping yet had to be driven firmly all of the way from chamber towards the muzzle.

-The proof marking shows the size of the largest measuring gauge that would pass freely through the bore and is usually one "size" under the actual size for a rifle. Put another way, if 10-bore=.775" and your gun is marked 11, it means the bore is smaller than .775" land to land but bigger than .751". It could well be .774" or even be larger than .775" groove to groove. My .778" 10-bore is proofed 11, my 4-bore is proofed 5, and I owned an 8-bore that was proofed 9.

-My light ~10lb 2.5" cased gun is marked 5 drams. I'd guess your 2 3/4"gun is made for 5-7 drams depending on weight, as the barrels look trim. If it's in the 13+lb range the charge might be heavier, but then the case would probably be longer too. From the slow twist I suspect it is a roundball gun.

-I absolutely swear by a lubed felt wad at least 1/2" thick above the over powder card. I melt wonderlube or similar black powder lube in a shallow tray like a styrofoam meat tray in the microwave then roll the edges of the wads in the melted lube and store them in zip lock bags. They compress and give a complete powder seal (unlubed ones in tests show burned edges) and can let you get away with slightly undersize bullets or inconsistent groove depth without worry of blow by. They can compensate for a ton of variables.

-Lastly, try every type of powder you can get. My Tolley was made for 700 grain balls at 1300fps per their original advertisement. I tried loads from 1100-1450 fps in brass and plastic cases, with and without crimps, with blue dot, goex Fg, FFg, and FFFg, in almost every possible combination and never got a pattern better than crossing 8" at 30 yards, probably why I got te gun at a good price!! I happened to find a can of Swiss FFFg at a gun show and decided to try a reduced load of just over 4 drams with a heavy roll crimp in a plastic case and heavy cards. Load #36 gave exactly 1300fps and the holes consistently touch at 50 yards! It is now my favorite rifle.

Please keep all of us posted. Thanks!

Bob


tinker
(.416 member)
26/01/18 02:13 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Bob makes good suggestions here.
Especially with the advice to seek all possible load configurations.


On wad and card detail, see here



Felt wads are important.
I use saddle felt, or wool felt sheet sourced from McMaster Carr or similar industrial supplier.
I make the powder cards from milk carton, and form them into the cup/bottle cap shape myself.

Cup over powder, lubed felt disc, then lubed ring-shaped donut wad under the ball.
Nice little stack with self-centering and self-sealing design properties.
Easy to produce, and consistent performance. Lots of lube for nearly unlimited follow up shots.



Cheers
Tinker


49NORTH
(.224 member)
27/01/18 03:52 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

The case is 2 5/8, the tape is underneath the case flush to the base.
There 8 narrow grooves for the 1 in 52 inch twist rifling, the barrels are 28 inches long.
I think Daryl is right on, the chokes seem to have been removed a some point.
Mr Greener said this was defiantly one of their choke bore rifles, proof marks are from 1875-1887, he considers this to be a heavy (9 1/2 lbs) 10 bore made for round ball and brass cases.
I still have issue with primer fit, I am in Canada so buying brass from the US is a pain in the a$$ and not a option right now.
Tinker, why not 2 lubed fiber wads? does Colum height matter?


DarylS
(.700 member)
27/01/18 05:57 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

49NORTH - I would phone trackofthewolf and ask if they can send brass to you.
There is no problem this side, just from the State's side.

We order all sorts of stuff from track, including CF rifle barrels, etc and get away with it due to them being a muzzleloading supplies outfit. I would try them.

If they can ship the brass, you are home-free. You will have to pay sales tax on the amount of the invoice, along with standard $5.00 custom's tax. Might be $10.00 now.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/139/11/SHOT-SHELL-10-2-78


tinker
(.416 member)
27/01/18 06:24 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:


Tinker, why not 2 lubed fiber wads? does Colum height matter?





Once you have cases that are suitable for loading, get a realistic powder charge in there and see how much room you have.
I haven't run into a case where there's room to waste with a fiber wad. The felt holds necessary black powder lube, and under pressure of burning powder the felt wad helps as a gas seal.

Again I typically run a ring or donut shaped felt wad under the ball. All wadding fully impregnated with black powder lube.



Cheers
Tinker


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
28/01/18 01:38 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

My goodness! I've never seen such a high front sight on a bore rifle. Wonder what that is all about? What does the rear sight look like?




Daryl, there's just a little fly in the ointment as to getting the 10b cases to Canada. Notice the top right corner of the Track of Wolf webpage:

"Special Restrictions Apply. Not available for export outside the U.S.A."

Don't you suppose they mean what they say?

BTW, those are the cases I am using with my 10b Paradox.


I'm thinking somebody has reamed most of the rifling out of these barrels. Does it look that thin all the way through?


Curl


DarylS
(.700 member)
28/01/18 04:30 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I missed that notation, Curly. One can (should) always phone them and find out.
I was able to buy brass from Buffalo Arms for my 16 bore, some time back, might have been before the big permit kerfuffle put on during the Obama administration.


Wayne59
(.400 member)
28/01/18 06:26 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Well you could always have someone in the us put them in a box and mail them. Unless the canadian government opens your mail.

MikeRowe
(.333 member)
28/01/18 11:00 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I'm going to go out on a limb, here. I've looked at the pictures on this forum, and at the"other" forum. From what I can see without examining the gun, it appears to be a shotgun that someone has rifled later on in it's life. But I could be wrong, having not seen it in person.
While this may not cause any problems, and it may shoot just fine, I would stay on the light side with loads for a start.


tinker
(.416 member)
28/01/18 11:30 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Mike look closely at the muzzles.
I think I'm seeing polygonal bore there.


MikeRowe
(.333 member)
28/01/18 11:37 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

It looks like shallow, narrow grooves to me, and it appears the front sight ramp is soldered on to a shotgun rib, and not in the middle, either. I've not seen a double rifle done like that before.

DarylS
(.700 member)
29/01/18 05:56 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

"Mr Greener said this was defiantly one of their choke bore rifles, proof marks are from 1875-1887, he considers this to be a heavy (9 1/2 lbs) 10 bore made for round ball and brass cases."

In light of this, I maintain the chokes, which are usually very tight (deep rifling) compared to the bore, were almost bored out completely, - but - the muzzles appear to be too thin at the bottom of the grooves - that I do not understand.

The front sight block does look odd at well.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
29/01/18 08:24 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Well gents I guess its time to get at it, hopefully by next weekend, I will have some good things to report back with, I'm gonna loader up and strap it down and see what happens.

49NORTH
(.224 member)
30/01/18 06:34 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle




DarylS
(.700 member)
30/01/18 06:44 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:

Well you could always have someone in the us put them in a box and mail them. Unless the Canadian government opens your mail.




This worked for a friend of mine, a year or so, ago.

As long as you pay them the $5.00 or $10.00 Customs fee and submit the Sales Tax when picking up the parcel at the post office, Customs here does not care about brass, triggers or scopes, according to a local Custom's "Supervisor".

The problem is when going out of the US, since 2008 or so - something about the UN agreement.

Better get them before Trudeau does something(else)stupid.


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
02/02/18 11:05 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Yeah, we're afraid those 10b cases will go to the Taliban to become WMDs.

Curl


DarylS
(.700 member)
03/02/18 03:01 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Someone was. My understanding it was the Obama Admin and the UN.

49NORTH
(.224 member)
07/02/18 04:08 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Not my best day,should have stayed home.
-15 c north wind blowing perfect day to go to the range as probably nobody else there.
Primer issues came back to haunt me, not one would fire, all that happened was they were struck and pushed into the cases. I could not get any to fire from either barrel,then the worst happened..... the stock broke at the wrist, clearly there is a old repair.



I think given the circumstances, before I spend anymore money I am going to try and fit 209 primers to my cases and Mickey the stock and proof this thing to see if it is worth any more effort and money.


tinker
(.416 member)
07/02/18 04:18 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Ouch!

On the issue of primers, were you running pistol or rifle primers?


DarylS
(.700 member)
07/02/18 04:20 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

So sad to see this.
Hope you can repair it.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
07/02/18 06:00 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Primers were small pistol magnum and small rifle. I did get both to fire in a empty case when I did a test, I also used a drop of glue on the side of the primer to help hold them.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
07/02/18 06:19 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle


Here is a comparison between an original primer and a 209.


93x64mm
(.416 member)
07/02/18 07:10 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Keep going 49!
We're all following how this is panning out, just a step backward yesterday that's all.
If you modified the cases, would you use modern large rifle primers or would it be better to go to a 209 series type primer; using BP & quite a lot of it?


tinker
(.416 member)
07/02/18 07:24 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:


If you modified the cases, would you use modern large rifle primers or would it be better to go to a 209 series type primer; using BP & quite a lot of it?




Real black powder is very easy to ignite.
If the primer pocket wasn't too deep to use rifle primers, that would be my first choice - actually I'd likely stand at the lathe and make spacers for the existing pockets before I'd bore them open.


On going forward, that wrist repair will need to be very sound, as the rifle's regulation relies upon a solid stock.




Cheers
Tinker


49NORTH
(.224 member)
20/02/18 04:08 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Just about ready for another test. Hose clamped the stock together it should be ok for what I need to do. I have been trying to fit 209 primers and have finally got it (I think). When I drilled out the original pocket it doesn't leave a lot on metal to hold the primer and the cases are very thin on the base so when I dry fired them the back of the case would concave in substantially and the primer would fall out when the case was removed.
So what I did is to add a 3/16 thick cork base wad to the case to give it a bit of strength, this should keep it from collapsing. My only concern is that this might raise internal pressure. I do remember reading an article about this very thing years ago bit I cannot remember the outcome.
If anyone knows please chime in, otherwise once the weather here gets a bit better I will be out to test fire again.


DarylS
(.700 member)
20/02/18 08:38 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I think you need new brass and a "properly" repaired stock.

Huvius
(.416 member)
20/02/18 02:16 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:

I think you need new brass and a "properly" repaired stock.




I agree...
This all sounds like a disaster in the making.
If this is a genuine bore rifle, and you value your health, you should consider a proper repair and starting with sound brass and loads.


tinker
(.416 member)
21/02/18 01:01 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Do not attempt to fire that brass. The risk of case head failure is high.
Also.
Do not attempt to run that rifle with a hose clamp repair to the stock.
It will not shoot to regulation with a broken stock, or any stock that is not completely sound.


Quote:








This post shows a photo of the rifle.
The wrist shows a line, although out of focus, right at the place where later in the thread you show the stock broken.

It appears that the repair was likely obvious.

In this thread from elsewhere in year 2012 you show photos of the rifle, without a broken wrist, and with no signs of a repair. You also state that the barrels are fully rifled.

When were those barrels bored from 'fully rifled' to the current state of what appears to be a rifled-choke-bored ball/shot configuration?
Who did that work?
Was the rifle re-proofed?

Who did the previous repair to that stock?

Something isn't right here.

Step back.
Seriously reconsider the path that you're following and think on a fresh new direction.



Cheers
Tinker


49NORTH
(.224 member)
22/02/18 04:43 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Gentlemen; Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate all the help you have given me with this project, you have been invaluable to this project, and I have learned a lot, I have decided to put this aside for now and move on with something else.

DArcy


tinker
(.416 member)
22/02/18 04:47 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:

Gentlemen; Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate all the help you have given me with this project, you have been invaluable to this project, and I have learned a lot, I have decided to put this aside for now and move on with something else.

DArcy





Good decision.
It's always good to steer on the safe side.



Cheers
Tinker


Heelerau
(.300 member)
18/05/18 08:00 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I used to de prime berdan primed martini cases with a short piece of 3/64 piano wire soft soldered into a bit of 1/4 mild steel rod. I do not know if you can still get berdan primers. I would also drill the flash holes out with the 3/64 drill. I was only loading these cases with black powder. It is tedious but can be done. I would also be casting in pure lead if your rifle has a choked bore, at least to start with anyways/

49NORTH
(.224 member)
11/02/20 07:30 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Thought I would update this a bit. Gun has been restocked,brass shells were modified with a brass insert in the primer pocket (as per Tinkers suggestion) and work just fine,I'm in the process of working out a load.My only concern is i dont seem to be getting the velocities I see on other threads. I am using a 685 grain round ball and FFG Goex and 1 1/2 Swiss. With 5 drams and 5 1/2 drams im still under 1100 ft/sec. Should the velocities be higher for the amount of black powder ?

Marrakai
(.416 member)
11/02/20 01:14 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Sorry, post deleted, will do a bit more research...

tinker
(.416 member)
11/02/20 01:34 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

How is the fit of that ball to the bore?
What was the was column?

You'll need a good tight fit to get the pressure necessary for good velocity.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
11/02/20 01:57 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Balls will go through bores with a slight push from a wooden dowel. Column is basic , powder, bottle cap over powder wad, 1/2 inch fiber wad soaked in bore butter, flat over powder card wad with center cut out to center ball,then the ball is set on top and the case is slightly crimped. I use a bit of fletch tight glue just to keep the ball tight,

tinker
(.416 member)
11/02/20 02:18 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Quote:


... the barrels are 28 inches long.
Mr Greener said this was defiantly one of their choke bore rifles, proof marks are from 1875-1887, he considers this to be a heavy (9 1/2 lbs) 10 bore made for round ball and brass cases.





In the book, "The Gun And It's Development" by WW Greener, in the chapter 'Modern Sporting Rifles' there is a chart of weights of bore rifles relative to barrel length
The figures for the 10 bore Double Barrel rifle top out at 11.5 lbs for a rifle with 27" barrels with each inch less of barrel yielding a rifle weighing a half pound less. Given this pattern, I'd expect your rifle to weigh more than 9-1/2 lbs.
A ball and shot rifle could/should weigh and balance differently than a bore rifle, but still this sounds light.

How is recoil with this load?

Does that fiber wad fit tightly in the bore?
How is this load printing on your target?


49NORTH
(.224 member)
11/02/20 02:40 PM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Recoil is not unpleasant, with 5 drms of 2F Goex I average 1060 ft/sec. At 50 yds , 5 rounds I got a 10 inch group 12 inches low and about 12 inches right.I am just wondering if my velocities are in the ball park

3DogMike
(.400 member)
12/02/20 04:44 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

This is a 10 Bore correct?
5 Drams is a very light load for a 10 Bore, so your velocities are not unexpected.

Are your balls (the rifle’s, not yours) still cast of wheelweights? If so, they are probably too hard to slug up with only 5 Drams so you will be getting no resistance to build pressure, and not engaging the minor bit of rifling at all. Try 20-1 mix, or even pure lead.

Greener wrote that standard for 10 Bore is 6-8 Drams.
5 Drams is a normal load for average weight 12 Bore rifles.
- Mike


DarylS
(.700 member)
12/02/20 04:46 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Seems slow, to me. Shooting that low, be careful of the chronograph.

I'd expect 136gr. of powder to shoot faster, around 1,250fps.
The reason I feel it's slow, as my bro's 10 bore Bess broke 1,500fps with 100gr. GOEX 2F and a patched round ball. Mike could be right, about the slugging up of the ball.

Sounds as if it needs more powder, to me.

Wonder what Cpt. Curl gets in his 10 bore?

I was just thinking about my 12 bore, and it took 190gr. 2F with the undersized 480gr. ball in a cup wad, to make 1,550fps
buy only 165gr. to give that vel. with the same ball cloth patched, in my 14 bore rifle.


3DogMike
(.400 member)
12/02/20 05:24 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Just an addition to the above:
My great grandfather's 1874 vintage W&C Scott 10 Bore shotgun with 30” barrels and cylinder bore gets average 1075 feet/sec with 5 Drams of Goex 2F and 1 1/4 Oz (546 grains) of #6 shot. This is with brass cases and 9ga over powder card wad then greased 9 bore felt wads.

.......I do not use this load for hunting in this old gun, just tested for curiosity one time to see what the old (said to be) 1880’s hunters load would do.
- Mike


49NORTH
(.224 member)
12/02/20 07:00 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Thanks, the first balls were 16;1 if I remember correctly, this project started a while ago, the next batch will be softer. More powder was what I was thinking also, but I was just wanting to make sure I was on the right track.

3DogMike
(.400 member)
12/02/20 08:31 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Hello '49
Your first post spoke of casting balls out of wheelweights is why I mentioned it......pretty hard alloy..

Also, if the bores were modified while it was in England then there would be marks indicating reproof. As in an “R” stamped on the barrel flats.
- Mike

EDIT:
I just reread the thread, and found one from 2012 on DoubleGun as well, and realised that this is a very light (I think) 10 bore chambered for quite short cases? Maybe a 4 Dram, max 5 Dram? If it is the same rifle.....
Less than 2 1/2” case length? Correct?

What was the reply from Greener?


49NORTH
(.224 member)
12/02/20 10:48 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Mike; not much stamped on the gun, there are pictures in some of my early posts, but I believe the gun was built in 1887 , who knows what has happened to it in the last 130 odd years but with the knowledge I have gotten here I will make it shoot once again. I do believe that it has had lots of modifications done to it but nothing that makes it unsafe as long as I stay within reasonable limits.

49NORTH
(.224 member)
17/02/20 03:12 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Mike, Yes same gun, Greener said it sure looked like theirs but had no info on it specifically, when i asked about weight he said he didn't consider 9 1/2 Lbs Light for a 10 Bore.I was out shooting it again yesterday. This time with 6 1/2 drams (180 measured grns of Goex 2F ) I was getting 1260 ish Ft/sec but really heavy recoil.Interestingly I was getting almost the same impact foot low , foot right at 50 yards. I tried to recover a ball or 2 but we have 3 ft of snow here and couldn't find any.I was hoping to recover one to see what it looked like. I think the next batch will be pure lead and a little less powder.

DarylS
(.700 member)
17/02/20 03:47 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

I was shooting 7 drams in an 8 pound 12 bore with 2 3/4" chambers. It kicked.
A lighter load might hit higher.


49NORTH
(.224 member)
17/02/20 04:45 AM
Re: Greener Bore Rifle

Daryl, I have been down to 4 1/2 Drams already, shots were all over the board. At 5 drams things got better, next will be 6 drams with pure lead ball.


Mike, Yes the cases are 2 1/2 and if you can enlarge the barrel pictures in one of my early posts there is an "R" stamped on the barrels in front of the proof marks towards the muzzle.



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