| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/12/15 11:51 PM |
|
Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga - is it a Double Rifle ...... or a Shotgun?
I recently acquired a strange old Husqvarna SxS 16ga. shotgun. ? ? Its a model 20 side-swing under-lever from 1908. But, it has full-length "straight rifled" barrels - "no twist". I slugged the bores and they measure .670" bore and .690" groove with 12 lands and grooves - no choke.
Apparently these strange rifled shotguns were used for Moose hunting in Sweden in the early 1900's.
The straight rifling was an economical way to circumvent the Swedish game laws that put a ban on hunting Moose with smoothbores. The new law stated you had to use a rifled gun.
So, Husqvarna built shotguns with full length rifled barrels with "straight rifling" to meet the law. Now you had a "rifled" bore for the Moose hunt, but you could still load the gun with shot and go bird hunting without destroying the shot pattern. Rifling with a twist would have "swirled" the shot pattern, whereas straight rifling did not.
Now ... I wanted to shoot it...... so I set about loading some ammo ....
Finding data for 16ga slugs is nearly impossible, so a lot of "seat-of-the-pants" interpretation was required. I have loaded 16-bore brass loads in the past for my German Vogelbüchse rifles, so I used similar (but lighter) loads for the Husky.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=234349&an=0&page=0#Post234349
Brass used was 2-1/2" 16ga Mag-Tech - these take a pistol primer. The procedure was as follows.
Primed the brass with CCI 350 Mag Pistol Primers.
Loaded with 78g FFFg Goex Black Powder.
Petals were cut off a Rem 12ga plastic wad and the "cup" portion was inserted as an over-the-powder wad.
Four (4) 3/8" thick 12ga lubed fibre wads were compressed on top of the plastic cup.
A .678" dia pure lead round ball - weight = 469 grains was placed on top and crimped.
I fired 10 shots on 2 targets at 50 yards.
The first target was 6 shots fired off-hand - standing - no rest.
The second target was 4 shots fired rested - sitting - loose rest.
Recoil was mild - and it shot really big holes, so I didn't need to use a spotting scope to see them and record the data. The Chronograph reading showed slightly over 1000 fps with an overall average of 1020 fps for the 10 shots.
The results look pretty grim, 12" to 13" total spread for the 10 shots combined from both targets. (see mock-up) I suspect this was due primarily to the excessive rattle-room with from the .678" diameter balls that I used in the .690" bore. Unfortunately this was the only mold I had that was close, so I used it. Perhaps paper-patching the ball would have helped. (next time)
However, since the intended game for this weapon was to be Moose, I superimposed the group on a "full-size" Moose target to see how I would have done. To my amazement, a Moose is a lot bigger animal than I had imagined. Although a 13" group at 50 yards equates to about 26 minutes of angle, and would be totally unacceptable for most hunting - not so for Moose.
At 50 yards, this old Husky shoots a very acceptable "Minute-of Moose" - and would have been deadly with all 10 shots.
I know that much improvement will be gained from further experimentation. Even though deadly, I don't think the Swedish Moose hunters would have been satisfied with my 13" groups. So, my next outing will be with a .693" diameter 1 ounce 12ga slug. (425g) Same powder charge with 3 fibre wads. I expect much better groups with this "full" bore size projectile. I will report back when tested - perhaps later today.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 28/12/15 10:27 AM |
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Mine had only the right barrel rifled and it was .705" groove to groove.
For my gun, the original ammo for these, was black powder with round ball in a 16 gauge brass case, while the other chamber, exactly the same size, was for 2.5" 16 gauge paper cases.
In my gun, the left barrel was modified choke, 16 gauge.
I used to load brass cases for both barrels.
Incidently, the chambers were only 1/8" short of standard 2.3/4" plastic hulls. My gun shot beautiful full patterns out of the left 16 bore smooth barrel, and did not do-nut pattern from the cylinder straight rifled tube with 2 3/4" 1 ounce of # 7 1/2 lead field loads.
The straight rifling handled shot nicely on rising grouse - quite deadly, actually.
I slugged the bore with a .714" ball to get full depth, and then tried the normal .682" ball I use in my .69 ML rifle. These engraved a bit and are what I used to test accuracy in the target below. Mine had a .675" bore, almost a true 15 bore (.677"), bore. I also used 2F and think it might group better than 3F, although 3f will give higher velocity.
I only targeted mine at 28 yards.
I refinished the stock.
It patterned even better with black powder and normal card and fiber wads. I used 14 bore wads for a perfect fit in the 16 bore brass.
They are really neat guns, Bob. Wish mine had been rifle both tubes as yours is.
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/12/15 01:35 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.
Did you try any smokeless loads with round ball?
What velocities were you getting?
Well,
I tried the 12ga slug load mentioned above. But, it looks like once again we have a 50yd group that is "minute-of-Moose" at a 13" spread.
It looks like a lot more experimentation is in order.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 28/12/15 05:08 PM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
its an interesting idea that straight rifling in this husqvarna double guns was for cirkumvent shotgun slug prohbition.
iirc, sweden and finnland prohibit slugs on elg and this for decades.
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/12/15 05:13 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.
It would be interesting if someone could locate a catalog of the time when these were made and see how the "straight rifling" is described.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/12/15 05:57 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
I thought I read this from a Husqvarna catalog on line, that the straight rifling was to circumvent a law passed back before the turn to 1900, that shotguns could not be used for moose - as was being done by the farmers. Thus, Husqvarna turned one or more barrels of the side by side 16 bores into straight rifling, which would still shoot shot reasonably well at close range, but also round balls from the "rifled" tube for moose, legally. I was told they also made twist rifle barrels, but I do not know if the larger sizes were made with twist rifling. Sizes of 20 bore, 16 bore and the 13 bore rifled tube I had were made. Also, the 12.2x47R which was their version of the .50/70 was also chambered up, usually in the left barrel/rear trigger.
The factory round ball loads always contained black powder as well as being in a brass case, so it was easily noted which was shot, which was round ball when both faced downwards in a belt. The shot load was in paper.
No - I didn't try smokeless in mine, although I was tempted just to use a load out of Lyman's handloading book for 16 bore 1oz. or 1 1/8oz.
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/12/15 06:49 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello Darl_S
Thanks for the reply.
I'm going to try a few of my "heavy" bullets for my 16 ga Vogelbüchse. They are the correct dia with 2 lube grooves. They weigh about 650g (1-1/2 ounce) and I'll try a starter load of FFg. I should know within 2 pairs of shots if its going to improve grouping.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/12/15 12:06 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
I expect they might shoot apart due to the recoil, but you never know without testing.
Good luck.
1 1/2ounce might be VERY heavy for a light shotgun action?
I suspect my loads probably did approximately 1,200fps, using 82gr. 2F GOEX.
Also, Swiss 1 1/2F might increase speeds a bit more.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/12/15 12:08 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Also - the patched balls (.662") shot well and very cleanly too.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 02:37 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Here in Finland those type of shotguns with rifled barrels were popular from the end of 19th century to first decades to 20th century among some rich people (officers, shopkeepers etc.) who in winter bought sleeping bears from local people i.e. information of place where bear dreams his winter sleep. Then they just went with horse and sled near that place, then walked/skied to bears seat, awoke it up and then shot it. Double shotgun with rifled barrels and slug loads was good weapon for short distances.
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 03:53 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello Dary_S,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I'm planning to try patched round balls .. and also a .690 round ball (mold is on the way)
I'm not sure about the wad column and how that affects the round ball loads. Might have to try some kind of cup wad to support the ball so that it doesn't flatten against the wad.
Thats why I want to try the 1-1/2 oz bullet ... its got a flat base.
Hello Igorrock,
Thanks for the reply,
Yes, as you can see by my Moose target ... at short distances under 50 yards, this double would be deadly on Moose. And, at 25 yards it would shoot about a 6" group that would be deadly on anything bigger than a rabbit.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/12/15 04:01 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Quote:
Here in Finland those type of shotguns with rifled barrels were popular from the end of 19th century to first decades to 20th century among some rich people (officers, shopkeepers etc.) who in winter bought sleeping bears from local people i.e. information of place where bear dreams his winter sleep. Then they just went with horse and sled near that place, then walked/skied to bears seat, awoke it up and then shot it. Double shotgun with rifled barrels and slug loads was good weapon for short distances.
That is exactly the method of hunting bears a young lad (X-change student)from Yakutsk told me they hunted bears in his area of Siberia. The youngest, most inexperienced 'hunter' in the group, with a rope around his waist, would craw into the 'den' and wake the bear up. When he yelled, the others would pull him out, then shoot the bear when it emerged. That is the method they used up until about 8 years ago according to him. That is when I lost contact with him, so they may still 'hunt' bears that way.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 30/12/15 04:10 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
just found an old german newspaper article (maybe 1910) about such a bear hunt in russia eleven hours with train from Sankt Petersburg. its said that then was a real bear trading floor in Sankt Petersburg were such sleeping bears were offered. sometimes a bear was booked from hunters in central europe and such a small world it was than you could reach the area in some days.
the bear here was waking up and drive against the hunting party. they hire 110 locals for 70 rubel a day as beater what was a lot of money than
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 04:54 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Straight rifling in shotgun barrels was a recurrent idea to improve shot patterns also. The theory behind this use: The straight rifling keeps the accelerating wad and shot charge from turning willy-nilly while going down the barrel and thus spreading the shot charge. The idea crops up about every 50 years or so. The earliest example I have seen was an 18th century single barrel gun converted to percussion. About 1870 Zimmer dismissed the idea as useless, obsolete bogus. Then there was an 1880s Austrian, Ferlach made 16 gauge with straight rifling in both barrels. Both guns were clearly shotguns, without rear sights. This Husquarna also seems to have the rear sight added as an afterthought. In the 1880s -90s Straight rifling was replaced by the more effective choke boring. But in the 1970s one American reinvented it. He used a cylinder bored, straight rifled barrel with an interchangeable choke screwed on and claimed much tighter patterns. IIRC I read about it in GD once.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 05:11 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
I read this article and, according the duration of train trip it is very possible that this hunt has been held in Karelia, area which 1917 when Finland became intependent, came part of Finland (we lost most of it in 1944). Karelia was very famous of local bear hunters and when russian czar went to hunt there he used to have finnish prohunter as a guide.
| Mike_Bailey |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 05:53 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Just a small question, last week in Devon I tried out my 15 bore muzzleloader on pheasants. A lot of rain so only fired it a few times. Unfortunately the only over powder cards I had were 12 bore and they were a TIGHT fit. then I put on the fibre wad. It was so cold on my fingers I gave up on the over powder wad after a few shots and just used the fibre wad on the powder but the loads sounded "anaemic". Question, would the 12 bore over powder card being tight have increased the pressure to any "risky" level and second question is it OK just to put the fibre wad over and omit the card, thanks in advance, Mike
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 08:09 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello Mike Bailey
Thanks for the reply.
It has been my experience that a "tight" over the powder card is the way to go. Measuring velocities with a Chronograph will likely show very low velocity if you don't use it.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 30/12/15 07:00 PM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
while its mentioned that the hunter dont have to shoot at fox and hare that will be seen frequently in such a bear driven to not alert the bear there is a polar hare beside the bear on the sledge.
I look forward to see whats happen with the cats head bullet in straight rifling. its recommended in the 1914 Stukenbrock catalog but without a spin you would think it must tumble.
" recommanded for Paradox guns also for guns with straight rifling"
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/15 10:40 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello lancaster,
Thanks for the reply.
I had a mold made special about 5 years ago for my 16 gauge German Vogelbüchse rifles. The bullet weighs about 650 grains.
I tried to match the bullet shape that was shown in the 1914 catalog.
. . . . . . . . 
These heavy bullet shoots very well in those rifles with smokeless loads, but I fear it would be too much pressure for this Husqvarna double. I will work up a mild black powder load in the Vogelbüchse rifle before shooting it in the Husky Double. It will be interesting to see if it tumbles, and how that affects accuracy.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 31/12/15 03:10 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
I cannot see what it won't tumble.
V-nice target from your 16 bore rifle. Good ballistics, too.
Mike I would not worry about over-stressing the tubes with black powder loads and tight wads.
One thing about tight wads, though, is the possibility of them being pushed back up the tube by compressed air between then and the nipples if the hammers are still down on the spent caps, or between the overshot and over powder or fiber wads.
Many of the guys I shoot with, cut a small cut or knotch in the wad before seating it, which lets the air past and does not seem to effect patterns at all. They use a pocket knife, patch knife off the strap of the shooting bag, or simply their thumb nail.
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/12/15 04:54 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello Daryl_S
Thanks for the reply.
If it were not for Tuesday's Blizzard, I would have tested them by now. Tomorrow my .690 round ball mold should be here also. Lots of things to try.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 31/12/15 06:10 AM |
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
hurry up!
you dont have so much time anymore this year
| buckstix |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/12/15 07:22 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Straight-Rifled SxS Husqvarna 16ga -Double Rifle or Shotgun?
|
Hello lancaster,
Only one day left ... but we got 12" of snow yesterday .. so it will take a couple of days to dig out.
That was out first snow this winter. Up until now we only had warm temperatures and rain.