| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 04:17 AM |
Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey guys,
(I posted this over on another forum, but figured I would share it here as well.)
Hey guys,
As most of you know by now, I wanted to come up a way to shoot copper slugs out of my SxS 12 gauge. I had heard a lot about shooting hard cast lead, but I figured a copper jacket might make things even better penetration-wise. So I set out to try this out.
Long story short, I came up with using 1/2" copper pipe caps filled with melted lead as a slug. They mic out at about .702", and then you wrap them with masking tape to bring them up to .729" (You can use teflon or paper for this to, a'la paper patching, but I'm lazy and masking tape is faster). In the end these slugs weigh around 580 grains. I called them "Hansol Slugs". Very original.
Secondly I had to come up with load data to shoot one of these. A lot of this was based on opinions and experience from other slug shooters, as well as a heck of a lot of cross-referencing. The rule of thumb for slugs is that a comparable weight shot load will generate more pressures than a comparable weight slug load. That's a fancy way of saying slugs generate LESS pressure than shot. So with that in mind, I developed the following loads:
*Now bear in mind, these are unpublished, untested loads worked in MY gun, and my gun only so far. I don't recommend others use them until they are pressure tested.*
Black Powder Load
-Win 2 3/4" Hull
-CCI 209 Primer
-105 grains Pyrdodex RS
-Fiber Wad
-580 grain Hansol Slug
-roll crimp
In theory, this load is going 1250fps. Approx pressure estimate = 6500psi. Actual pressures and speeds are unknown
Smokeless Load
-Federal 3" paper base wad hull
-CCI 209 Primer
-42 Grains Blue Dot
-WAA 12 white wad (petals cut off)
-580 Grain Hansol Slug
-roll crimp.
In theory, this load is going 1400fps. Approx pressure estimate = 9500psi. Actual speed and pressure are unknown
Again, these are untested loads, based on a lot of theory, and I'm not sure how safe they are at this point. Use at your own risk. Most importantly, DON'T USE IN A GUN WITH CHOKES. I'm pretty sure that would cause a LOT of problems. No chokes!
Range Day.
Here are pics from my range day the other week.
Here's my slug gun, a Lanber Supreme with 3" chambers. She has express sights, and barrels cut to 24". She's very much a "modern" gun:
This was 35 yards:
Guess which holes are mine:
As a "penetration test" on the day, I shot my slugs at a 1/2 steel plate. This happened EVERY time I pulled the trigger:
Ten Yards (the ones on the left were test rounds):
Test target @ Ten Yards. 4 Rounds. The ones on the left are left barrel, ones on the right, right barrel. I actually used proper aiming procedures this time instead of just banging away:
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 04:18 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Here are some pics of the slugs, wrapped and unwrapped (the one on the right is a reject, as you can probably tell from the base):
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 04:18 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Theory.
Here's a little bit of theory behind my rig. Basically my idea was to come up with a "stopping" gun. And while I didn't have anything against hard lead slugs, I just thought a copper one might work just as well, if not better. It turns out that this idea of a 12 gauge stopping gun is actually 140 years old, and goes back to the old British 12 bores of Africa. These guns tended to fire (in a 12 bore) a 600 grain round ball at around 1100fps. So this idea isn't an original one.
Secondly, a lot of guys were wondering about pulling a slug load out of "thin air". Well it wasn't quite that easy. I literally spent days reading old load data, querying experienced shooters, and reading books by WW Greener, Sam Baker, and all those old boys, trying to get an idea on loads and pressures. So the following is a comparison, showing my logic and reason:
Approved Load
-Federal 3" Paper base hull ---> Low pressure hull
-Fed 209a Primer ---> Hot (hottest) primer ---> High Pressure
-38 grains Blue Dot
- WAA12 white wad ---> Low pressure wad
-1 3/8oz lead shot ---> High pressure (compared to slug)
This generates 8800psi, and 1300fps
My load
-Federal 3" paper base hull ---> low pressure hull
-CCI 209 Primer ---> low pressure primer
-42 grains blue dot
-WAA 12 wad ---> low pressure wad
-580 grain Hansol Slug ---> My slug is 1 1/3oz, so is lighter. Plus, it's a slug, so using the rule that a slug gerates less pressure than shot ---> Low pressure
As for black powder loads, I came across the following stats in the Dangerous Game Journal, based on a 12 bore shooting a 600 grain round ball using black powder:
82 grains powder = 5350psi
110 = 6850
137 = 7800
164 = 9650
191 = 9750
220 = 11400.
I can't find any sources to verify the above black powder loads in a shotgun with charges higher than 105 grains, so haven't tested any higher loads. I don't like relying on just one piece of data. So I wouldn't recommend anyone basing their loads on the above stats until you can get something to cross reference.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/03/09 05:01 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Glad somebody tried it!
I threw this idea out a while ago - to less than enthusiastic response!
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=117620&an=0&page=1#Post117620
I thought the 1/2" caps in a 10ga cup would be what I would try.
Are you loading them with the lead or theopper facing forward?
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 05:06 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Huvius! Brilliant!
I searched and searched the web for info on this, but it seemed nobody had done it before. Good to see a like-minded individual out there. Very unfortunate the response you got though. I actually had the same thing happen on another forum, both when asking advice on coming up with an "unknown" load, as well as AFTER I published the info, showing that I didn't blow myself up and destroy the world, as most of the naysayers and safety police said would happen. Bunch of wankers...
So far I've only loaded them with the copper facing forward. There were a few that keyholed, but mostly all the slugs flew true, based on observing the holes in the target paper. I think that at such close ranges, the slug doesn't have enough time to "tumble". But that's just speculation.
| 450_366 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/03/09 08:33 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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This endcap slug sure sounds fun.
Would a wad bolted to the buttom of the slug prevent it from tumbeling?
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 08:42 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Yes I do think that would prevent tumbling, but with the wads I am currently using, there isn't enough room for a bolt to run through the center of it. It would interfere with the cushioning "legs" that are in the wad. I've thought about epoxying or glueing the wads to the base of the slug though, so maybe that might work. Short of changing wads though, I don' t quite know how to get a screw/bolt assembly to work.
Certainly lots to experiment with here though.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/03/09 12:15 PM |
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You could conceivably screw normal lubed fibre wads to the slug. I was going to call it a bullet, but couldn't.
It is in an iteresting idea - however - switch to round balls and gain a world of accuracy and complete penetration of an India Elephant's head - with straight line penetration. Anything that can turn, will on hitting something. If it turns, it will glance and follow the soft parts of the body, not smashing the bones as it goes - this is extropolation gleamed from the Surgeon's reports from the Crimean war, and they weren't shooting dangerous game, but people.
Yes, in all profiles this slug is blunt - but it has corners and I would not trust it. If attached to enough wads to keep it end-on, then it would be a smasher for sure - stabilityof some sort is key, I believe.
Round balls from my 12 bore, 26" tubes and open iron sights, would cut a single hole, about 1 1/4" in diameter at 25 yards. That, my friends, is accuracy. What I see above is not good enough for me. Slapping a bear on the eye-brow, bouncing it off his crown or punching him in the nose or lower jaw may only make him more determined. Accuracy is needed and these slugs and loads lack that very important aspect. Yes - theya re pretty cool and a good idea, BUT - too many problems for me.
Huvius - I'm sorry I missed your thread last year & would certianly commented and tried with help with the addition of suggusting the lubed wad attachment.
Now - the reason for the lubed wads. Lube wads from Track of the Wolf . com - are hard and can be drilled. As fibre wads today are usually donaconna, any form of abuse, such as attempted dripping, usually tears them. Lubed, they can be drilled. I would attach a 1/8" hard card, then the lubed wad, then hard card, then the slug into a 1 piece unit for initial testing. I'd use a #6 sheet metal screw and if necessary, a thin washer underneath the base card. This system will give an additonal small amount of weight - easily adjusted for with powder charge.
Be aware, black powder loads have 'some' recoil. If real BP is used in the 5 1/2 to 7 dram range in 2 3/4" hulls will give upwards of 1,350fps to 1,550fps.
Again to be effective for close range 'stopping', the load must hit the right spot with sufficient penetration - glancing wounds won't work.
At 50 yards, you should be able to hold a 2 1/2" to 4" group and at a full 100yards, 8" to 10". Round balls will give this accuracy - slugs rarely do - from a smoothbore. Hard cast round balls (WW) or heat treated WW can give penetration that must be seen to be believed.
I know a 50gallon fuel drum is not 1/2" of steel, but a straight WW ball, if driven to 1,400fps, will go in one side and out the other. That velocity is easy from a 2 3/4" hull, and more from a 3", of course.
A double 12 bore, with express sights - is a wonderful choice, Hansol - I just wish it showed better accuracy.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/03/09 01:01 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Whilst I was reading all the old books on 12 bores and black powder guns and such, I came across the same info that you discussed above Daryl: Apparently round balls penetrate in a straight line, while conical bullets tended to deflect when they contact anything hard. James Forsyth documents this in his book with regards to hunting tigers and elephants in India.
And yes, regarding accuracy, my showing the other week was horrible. In my defense, that was the first day testing loads, and my nerves were a little bit shot at that point, after having heard from all the internet naysayers that I was going to blow up and cause the world to end. I will make sure to get more photos of accuracy from these slugs in the coming weeks. I do agree though, that right now, accuracy is okay, but certainly isn't the best. The addition of a basewad to the slug would work, but I don't know what kind of pressure change using a fiber wad in a smokeless load would do.
Next on my list is to try hardened round balls, but I am having a difficult time coming up with a .730" round ball mold.
Most importantly though, this was just an experiment to see how these things worked, and for a first-time outting, with no tweaking or amendments to the original idea, I think it was a pretty good showing. But I do agree, compared to what I've heard about round ball accuracy, these slugs have quite a ways to go.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/03/09 01:20 PM |
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I thought of annealing the cap and then reforming them over a longer form. That, or simply rounding out the closed end to look more bullet-like.
In doing so, we could fill the cap roughly half way - or whatever volume of lead gets to the right weight - leaving the skirt open.
My thinking is that the projectile would act as a minie ball does and expand out to fit tight in the bore.
Also, theoretically, the projectile will fly straighter such as a dart does since it is nose heavy.
Could end up about 450gr and be pretty fast to boot.
| elvas |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/03/09 12:41 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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hansol,
You could drill the base of the slug and using a headless allen screw a Gualandi Bior-Pallettoni 20mm wad could be solidly attached to the base of the slug. This way you have a nose heavy slug and the wad also acts as a gas seal.
Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 31/03/09 05:43 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hansol---Interesting thread and yes there are a few of "us" out here who are very interested in double barrel slug guns.
I own one.
I'm hooked on round ball. You can get a mold made by Jeff Tanner. Contact info is ---
Jeff Tanner [jeff.ballmoulds@talktalk.net]
Very reasonable. Ships anywhere in the world.
The hardened round ball should get you the accuracy and penetration you seek. The 3 inch chambers give you an advantage too. Have you tried "Ballistic Products" for your shells and supplies? They have some powerful load recommendations as well for slug shooting. I use one of their 3 inch load recommendations. I get near cloverleafs at 50 yards with my double slugger smoothie.
Slug guns are awesome and you should be able to get the accuracy up. I needed to play around with loads and powder levels to get my handloads to work. The Brenneke Black Magic big massive factory 3 inch slug worked great out of the box in my double barrel slug gun. But I wanted my own loads. Plus I was disappointed in the penetration of the Brenneke's although many people swear by them. They do make a massive hole and pack a wallop, I will say that much.
Keep up the good work and keep us apprised. Good luck!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 31/03/09 07:31 AM |
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hansol - plastic wads beneath the slug will probably generate higher pressure than the wad atached to the slug as I suggested, merely because the plastic wads create a better gas seals than card and fibers.
I assume you missed the past pages of thread dealing with shooting and developing loads for smoothbore doubles. Yoogi and other double smoothie shooters from Australia have worked on these types of loads using round balls. Jeff Tanner's moulds are very reasonable and he will make any size you want. If you want a heavier ball, go with a .725" as I eventually did. It is useable in bores from .725" to .740" & is accurate - as noted below.
If one uses the hemispherical cavity, cup-shaped base-cup from a trap wad like the WAA12 to hold the ball in the middle of the bore, accuracy is about guaranteed with some load development. Merely cut the gas check at the fingers and throw the tops away. I use spent wads picked up on the trap range - All that is needed, is just the base wad, seated cup up, so the hemispherical cavity crables the ball and any size ball can be used from about 14 bore up to 12 bore. If the ball does not touch the walls of the barrel, it will not leave lead streaks on the inner surface. The cup centres the ball in the middle of the bore and delivers it perfectly straight from the muzzle, no bouncing as described by some writers for the old 'punkin-ball' loads of the 40's and 50's.
You use other wads, like fiber wads to take up the air space between the smokeless powder and the ball w/cup, or as some, use a plastic wad (smokeless powder only), cutting off part of the fingers to leave just enough to centre the ball. If used separately the plastic base wad part or gas check, is used to centre the ball in the barrel. With smokeless loads, I've even gone to using one cup down on the powder, a filler wad or wads, then a base cup, cup-up underneath the ball with pefect results with smokeless powders - and in black powder loads, a hard card or two on the powder, then the ball with the cup beneath it. You have to protect any plastic from black powder flames as BP produces more heat than smokeless powder and will melt plastic if in contact with it. The melted plastic will coat the bore and is sometimes difficult to remove.
All loading with smokeless powders should be started with low pressure shot loads of the same weight.
Attaching a wad to the copper slug will not generate any more pressure than having the same wad beneath it, but not attached.
Switching to round balls would be a positive move now that you've gained some experience with your lead-filled copper slug loads with both black powder and smokeless.
I used folded crimps on all my round ball loads in plastic cases. In some instances of using plastci cases with reduced capacity and with 7 dram black powder loads, the ball was not completely covered by the plastic case when crimped, leaving the ball visible in the centre of the crimp. This is not a bad thing. In other hulls of of even less capacity, the plastic only folded into a coned, 45 degree angle against the ball's sides and nose. None of them ever opened to release the ball until they were fired, and these 'pointy' cases with RB told me instantly they were BP loads. If loading in a pump gun or other repeater, then more perfect crimps are necessary of course, but not so in a double or single shot.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 31/03/09 08:53 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all the suggestions and input so far.
Daryl, I didn't see those threads, but I wish I had. When I asked around on some other forums about developing/working up a shotgun load, all I got told was that it was rediculous, can't be done, and that I was going to die. Not helpful at all, to say the least.
As for the fiber wads vs plastic wads, the only reason I was hesitant to switch was because I know how "changing wads changes pressures " blah blah blah, as many of the naysayers like to point out, but I didn't know if fiber wads would increase or decrease pressures. If you are certain that a fiber wad decreases pressures due to a lesser seal (and I won't disagree with that logic, as it makes sense), then it would be worth doing, and I will certainly be testing that out.
Regarding round ball molds, I recently emailed Mr. Tanner, and am waiting to hear back from him. The bore on my shotgun is a definite .729", so I would like to get a .730" round ball mold. I've heard of guys using the .735, but with the ball having to swage down .006", I think that would cause pressures to increase. Whether that increase is negligable or not, I'm not sure at this point.
I'm currently using a home-made roll crimper to crimp my loads, for what it's worth. Makes it really easy to see what slug you have loaded.
I love to experiment, but I do know that shotguns are a little bit more touchy than rifles when it comes to reloading. Hence why I really appreciate all the input you experienced guys are imparting. It really is a nice change from the "Why would you do that? That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. You're going to die and blow your gun up and void the warranty and blah blah blah". So thank you for the refreshing change.
| Kaimiloa |
| (.224 member) |
| 31/03/09 07:25 PM |
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Daryl - great post. Keep it up!
Hansol - you are to be commended for doing your homework before starting your shooting project, and for not giving up in the face of nay-sayers. Some of the latter are well-meaning, others are just blowhards quick to pooh-pooh the ideas of others. Most all of them have no idea that SGs are quite low pressure, especially with round ball loads. Nor that carefully selected smokeless loads might actually give lower peak pressure than B.P. loads, let alone Pyrodex loads. Care is needed in loading, yes, but as I say - you did your homework and are on your way. Enjoy!
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 01/04/09 03:09 AM |
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hansol - please don't go with a bore size or larger ball. first of all, the larger ball is only useful in an oversize bore, ie: one that measures .735" - some do, or in a rifled bore. A pure lead .735" fired from a .730" smoothbore is an easy way to hurt the gun, maybe blowing the primer. It will definitely raise pressure - a hardened ball, say WW metal is very much worse. A few thousanths smaller is better and use the cup off a wad to centre the ball. The cup will hold the ball in the centre for accurate shooting.
The only way to get away from leading with a bore sized or slightly oversize ball is to lubricate it somehow. Some guys dip them in melted lube and that works. Others use a lubricated wad beneath, but by the time the lubrication gets into the bore, the bore is already picking up lead. Leading destroys accuracy and is sometimes very difficult to remove. Using 0000 steel wool wrapped around a 16bore or 12 bore bronze brush works well. It's the wool that removes the lead, not the bristles. There are easier ways than straight bristle brushes, ie: 0000 steel wool one of the best. The 'wool' won't hurt the bore.
I'd use the fibre wads or - use the Oxyoke felt wads and use a 3/8" punch to cut the centre out of 1/2. 2 wads, the one with the hole on top, ball on top of that - perfect centering. Fibre wad beneath for smokeless loads.
Loading smokeless in a shotgun is similar to loading a handgun or rifle - always start a bit low and work as pressure signs indicate - and slowly. We are dealing with wads and balls not specifically mentioned - possible a different case or primer as well - be cautious and use common sense - don't let over-caution stop you - dropping the charge by 3 or 4 gr. weight of powder & using the lowest pressure loads listed will go a long way towards the rewards of loading your own slug or ball loads.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/04/09 06:37 AM |
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Hansol--- Yea, it is sage advice to listen to Daryl. The hardened round ball should be a tad under bore size. I have .726 bores and ordered a .724 round ball mould from Tanner.
Indeed Hansol there are more of "us" out there than you may know. Round ball shooters in smoothie barrels. Looking for stopper guns/take down a beast gun/hunting dangerous game gun. Two barrels and two hammers are the way to it.
I also shoot traditional muzzleloading black powder guns with round ball exclusively, well except for the shot loads in my 4 bore blunderbuss... Anyway, round ball accuracy is very satisfying doable. My 54 cal flintlock with round ball amazes me everytime I take it out and punch ragged holes at 50 yards with iron sites as long as I do my part.
I would think the .725 round balls available from Ballistic Products or many sources would be a great way for you to go. They are not hardened but they are readily available and cheap and it should get you a heavy round ball at .725 and you may find .725 will dramatically increase your accuracy. And for applications where a hardened round ball is not really needed a .725 pure lead round ball at 1400-1700 fps is still a very potent message.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 01/04/09 10:50 AM |
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A non-hardened, pure lead ball will go through both shoulders of a bull moose or large elk bull. Hard balls are necessary only for dangerous game, Cape Bufflao, Hippo and Elephant. All the rest will benefit from a soft ball.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 01/04/09 02:32 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey guys,
Interesting about the over-bore balls. I know of one guy shooting the over-bore .735s, but as was noted, he gets a few pressure spikes due to the swaging, and thusly can't load them too hot. I also didn't know about the leading of the bore either. I didn't figure this mattered in a smoothbore though?
For what it's worth, I will be chasing grizzly bears with these loads, so definitely want something that hits HARD and penetrates deep. That being said, I only need them for distances within 20 yards, so that was my reasoning behind my copper jacketed slugs: heavy, hard, and hit with a heck of a lot of energy. But after hearing/reading about the straight line penetration of the round ball loads, that has me thinking that maybe those might be a better choice. So to sum it up: I need a "stopper" gun, and I like the quick follow up shot that a double provides, compared to my 375 bolt gun.
Incidently, does anyone know what diameter the round balls that were being shot out of the old timer's howdah guns/bore guns and such were? Were they under-bore, or bore diameter?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 02/04/09 01:31 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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From a smoothbore, a properly loaded, hardened (straight WW) round ball IS my choice for grizzlies in camp as the 12 hits much harder than a .375 at close range.
I addressed the oversize ball - 4th post above this one - don't do it, please.
By all means, use a .724" ball (NOT .735") and the wads suggested to 'hold' the ball in the centre of the bore as it accellerates up the bore.
As I noted above, some shotguns bores today are oversize - some up to .735" and some even up to .740" or perhaps even larger. In a .740", you could easily use a .735" ball - yes - as long as it's undersize for bore size and lubed. Slugging the bore is the best way of finding what size your bores are. Dial calipers will give a close dimension but not as accurate as slugging the bore. If a .735" ball willnot fall through the bore, it is too big, will raise pressures and you don't want that. too high a pressure spike can seize the action, just when you need a fast reload, like chasing the bear out of camp. Shooting one is a last resort - firing in front to scare him away is the best move. Inadvertantly shooting one just because he's close, will not go over well with the game branch - something to consider.
As a side note, I just mic'd my new Mossey 835's rifled tube - .005"depth of rifling @ 35" twist and a groove diameter of a tight .722". A .7225" WW ball from my Tanner mould marked .725", goes to the bottom of the grooves, perfectly. Shooting a .735" ball will GREATLY increase pressure, making reduced loads necessary, heavily leading the forcing cone - all things I don't want. I can achieve over 1,600fps with a ball or the Lyman sabot slug. It's almost 14 bore in size. I could use the .7225' ball, as-is @ 565gr., lubed, but will achieve greater speeds (and perhaps accuracy) with the 506gr. WW Lyman slug inside a WWA12 red field shot-cup. They are .682" in diameter so little is lost in size and amazing accuracy is claimed for them - 3" from a smoothbore & 1 1/2" to 2" from a rifled tube - at 50 yards. the 506gr. WW slug will hit hard, and penetrate well while not breaking up. It seems now an either/or situation - round ball or the Lyman slug inside the wad. They are very tight in the Mossy's bore and cannot be shoved into it by hand. 'm quite excited about their 'possibilities' in both rifled and smoothbores. Time and testing will tell.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/04/09 02:19 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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.725 is a standard 12 gauge round ball mould available from many sources in the US or from Jeff Tanner. And as noted you can even buy off the shelf .725 pure lead round balls from Ballistic Products to do your development loads (or play) as you wait for the mold and molding process to make your own.
Also, at 20 yards on a grizzly I would actually take a double barreled hot .725 pure lead round ball load OVER a bolt action 375 with round nose bullet. Certainly WW (wheel weight) round balls would be even better but the big, heavy and heavy smacking big heavy .724 - .725 diameter round ball loaded up hot is potent stopping medicine for sure.
Just for "comparative consideration" and certainly NOT an indicator of straight apples to apples comparison---the .725 dia round ball is going to weigh in at a collosal 570 grains (plus or minus a tad) while the 375 bullet will weigh about 350 grains. For 20 yard stopping power bring on the heavy weight I say.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 02/04/09 09:06 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey guys,
After looking into molds, I decided that I am too poor at the moment to afford one, so I made my own. It worked out pretty good for a first time effort. Figured I would post it up here, just in case someone else is as poor and desperate as myself and wants to shoot round balls. All you need is an old aluminum heat sink block, a couple drill bits, a file, and a micrometer.
Anyway, start with this:
Then take your measurements, and bore out some holes:
Use a c-clamp to hold everything together, and start pouring:
End result:
Here is the "round" bit, and a normal spade bit for comparison:
Anyway, there it is. I know I was a bit brief, but I'm sure most everyone can figure this one out. Cheers.
| Alberta |
| (.275 member) |
| 02/04/09 10:19 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hansol nice to see you came over here from CGN.
Here is my round ball load using the Lyman .715 mould. Mine actually casts wheel weights to about .718 and about 537g and I drop into cold water right out of the mould.
Remington Gunclub 2 3/4" hull
Winchester AA white with the front petals cut off flush
34g of Imr 4756
Winchester Primer
This load only gives 1300fps out of my 20" Mossberg. That is all the recoil I want due to the folding stock, I am sure one could take it up higher but I haven't tried.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/04/09 04:11 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hansol-- I like that mold!
Alberta---That looks like a good load.
For Grizzly I would want it hotter/faster/more energy, but as you said your stock limits you. Up that to 40 grains PLUS of that powder and I think you'd have a grizzly killer. Yet, as we know, there are many powders to choose from that will deliver over 1400 FEET PER SECOND.
Slug = 0.715" round ball @ 550 grs.
Hull = Fiocchi lo-base (3")
Primer = FIO 616
Powder = 32.5 gr. 800X
Wad = BW12+BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 10,800 LUP
Velocity = 1465 FPS
I personally prefer my dangerous game round ball slug loads to be over 1550 FPS and closer to 1700-1800 FPS, however I am not near my slug load book right now to add any faster loads.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/04/09 12:35 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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[CENTER]Range Report[/CENTER]
Hey guys,
Made it out to the range today to do some more testing on the slugs. Shot a few paper targets, but also did some penetration testing on hard-pack consisting of old Outdoor Life and Field & Stream magazines.
For this test, I used 3 rifles: a 45-70, my 375 Taylor, and my SxS slug gun. Approximate velocities of each (as I still don't have a chronograph) are 1800fps, 2450fps, and 1400fps. Distance to target was about 10 yards, and test medium was dry magazines.
Results
Penetration:
.729 cal 580 grain slug @ 1400fps = 3 3/4"
.458 cal 350gr Hornady FN @ 1800fps = 4 3/16"
.375 cal 300gr Hornady RN @ 2450fps = 5 3/16"
Weight Retention
580gr Slug @ 1400fps = (shot #1) 492gr (shot #2) 564gr
.458 350gr @ 1800fps = (shot #1) 99gr (shot #2) 144gr
.375 300gr @ 2450fps = (shot #1) 81gr (shot #2) 231gr
So the above are the results. Interesting thing is that the slugs penetrated almost as deeply as the 45-70, yet retained weight much better, AND caused a "wound trail" that was the size of a small fist. The 375 penetrated the deepest, and also made a very large wound trail. The 45-70 shed its jacket both times, and caused a wound trail that looked like a mouse chewed its way through the hole. Lots of little bits of paper compared to the other two.
(Top left: slugs, middle: 375, right: 45-70. Bottom Left: Slug recovered at 50 yards in dirt backdrop (Weight Rentention = 568gr), Bottom right = .54cal Muzzleloader round ball)
Close-up of slugs
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/04/09 01:46 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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I'd like to see the comparison with a .715 - .725 round ball, molded up with WheelWeights (or equiv), hardened, and shooting it at 1600 to 1800 PLUS muzzle velocity.
Not a grizzly that would like that much at 20 yards.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/04/09 05:23 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hmmm - I have both sizes, plus .684" which I used in my initial tests in the double barreled smooth rifle. "Smooth Rifle" is the American 'moniker' used to define a smooth bore with both sights & dates back to flintlock days & forward, starting in the early 1800's.
Any of these sized hard cast balls even down to a 16 bore ball of 440gr. driving at only 1,300fps will suffice for such bears at that range. Smokeless loads at 1,500fps have minor recoil & are easily obtained in smoothbores with slightly heavier than Trap loads using powders such as SR4756, SR7625, Herco, Unique, etc. Mathc shot weight to ball weight for starting loads and carry on as if loading for a rifle - small increments at a time. While a chronograph isn't absolutely necessary, it is advisable, particuarly today with them being so innexpensive.
I already have 2 3/4" loads made up with .725's and Herco - just need to get out and test them.
These tests should also include the sabot Lyman bullet which shows good penetration and exceptional accuracy. It measures .68something and fits perfectly in a red WW field wad, WAA12R, I think. In WW metal as mailed tome by friend Karl in Alberta, it weighs 506gr. In pure lead, they are supposed to be 525gr. A .684" pure lead ball weighs 484gr. and in WW weighs 466gr. 1 1/4oz. is 545gr. The WW .725's (mould actually casts .722") weigh 585gr., which is 1 3/8oz.
I suggest, with that size ball, one start with the highest velocity shown with the lowest pressure powder listed in Lyman's shot loads, then raise the powder by 1gr. increments until pressure signs show - extruding primers, excessively flattened primers, sticky extraction, seemingly too-high velocities for short cases. I'd use plastic cases with integral base wads, not cases with inserted base wads, which can be blown from the case and perhaps lodge in the bore. That will form an obstruction for the next shot if not cleared. Same goes for 3" or 3 1/2" loads. The 3 1/2" case can actually obtain over 2,000fps with the Lyman slug in rifled or smoothbores - I expect the recoil might be memorable. I'll stick with 2 3/4" loads, but will make up some 3 1/2" for a friend to test for me - HA! These will be for a Mossy pump with rifled bore. Reports of 2" and less groups with that bullet from a rifled bore (50 yards)
With any smoothbore (muzzleloaders included), it appears the higher the muzzle velocity, the longer the range before they spin off as a curve ball does(trumpet-shaped flight). My own double managed descent groups at 100 meters( 8 to 10" ) showing for deer sized targets, the max shooting range might be 90yards. The Lyman slugs promise slightly better results. I'm quite excited about their testing in both my smooth slug gun and the rifled one as well.
As to the trumpet-shaped flight, I've seen this myself through binocs - really something to witness, the ball headed straight at the target, only to vere off to the side, missing by 2 feet on a 92 yard target. This was a light load in a 20 bore round ball, smooth - with a light, 2 3/8 dram charge - perhaps 900fps to 1,000fps. Everyball doesn't do this, only the odd one, with others impacting just a big low, some high, some to one side or the other, some on-target with perfect flight. Fun to watch when the light is right. High velocity loads seemed to shoot straight with hardly a miss over many shots. This shows a trend not to be dismissed.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/04/09 06:21 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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If I could push the slugs faster I would, but without a chronograph, my posted velocities are just approximations. They could be going faster or slower, so take it for what it's worth. I think I will use some of my guide money this year to buy one of those suckers, and get some real velocities published.
As for 1600-1800 fps, I would love to hit that marker, but I don't know if it is possible to obtain within the specified 11500psi SAAMI specs for a standard 12 gauge shotgun load. Using black powder might make it possible, but even then I think the loads are sitting at just under 1600fps and topping out near max pressures.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/04/09 09:47 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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hansol- you will not like to shoot a load of BP that runs that ball up that high. Even 1,500fps to 1,550fps, takes 7 drams - a full 191gr. of 2F - not 1f, which gives lower speeds. Smokeless powders in the 7625 and 4756 range meet that speed easily and with low pressures - 1/2 the recoil - I figured.
You might get up to 1,700fps with about 240gr. of 2F - but would require a 3" case to do it - probably, as there must be room for requite wads for sealing and to help with accuracy.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/04/09 10:21 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey Daryl,
Thanks for the input on the powders. So far I've only messed around with Blue Dot powder, as I was fairly new to shotgun reloading. I think now that I know my loads work, it would certainly be worth messing around with other smokeless loads, as I would love to have those 580 grain slugs going 1600fps. That would be a dinosaur load for sure.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/04/09 11:48 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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hansol---you can ALSO buy the big brenneke slugs. The Brenneke SL-123BMM, 12 Gauge, 3 in, 1 3/8 oz, Black Magic Slug scoots at 1500+ fps!! For Rifled and Smoothbore Barrels. If you can get the 1 and 3/8 OZ Brenneke to speed along at 1500 fps you can get a round ball to 1600 fps.
I used the "Ballistic Products" Slug manual to develop some loads that were above 1500 fps and I'm sure you can to! Unfortunately I do not have that manual on me now but you can call Ballistic Products and ask them what load will get over 1500 fps using THEIR .715 round balls, and of course when you buy 25 of their .715 round balls I would assume they would provide you with the recipefor free... or of course you can always just buy their Slug Loading Manual and get that info there too. There are alot of slugs loads out there with speeds up above 1500 fps. And they don't kick that bad at all using modern powders.
However I'm with Daryl on this one. A WW round ball in .715 - .725 diameter would be confident medicine aganist a grizzly at 20 yards with muzzle velocity above 1200 fps. Sure 1500 to 1600 would make the INSURANCE company feel better but that was what I though the second barrel was for? (hahahahaaa!)
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/04/09 12:10 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Here is the link for Hodgdon powders for loading 1 ounce round ball slugs using ONLY the 2 and 3/4 inch shell. the top load is for 1550 fps using Universal Powder.
http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp
Enjoy!
I know with a 3 inch shell you can get a variety of loads/ powders that will get you that magical "over 1500 fps" with a round ball payload. And, again, from past experience the recoil was not that bad at all.
Here is a 3 incher load I got off the hercules website using 46 grains of BLUE DOT powder: 1 3/8 ounce load will get you a velocity of 1,564 fps, using Fed 209A, 10,700 pressure... I'd just visit some of these powder websites to get you some loads.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/04/09 12:31 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Mind your wads, Gentlemen. The do make a difference - always start low and 'work up' or 'work down' the load dependent on pressure signs.
Longshot is another powder that should work well for RB loads.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/01/10 12:00 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hey all,
Yes, I'm still alive, and yes, I still have all my fingers. So nobody needs to speculate as to if my shotgun project blew up in my face and turned me into a drooling one-eyed pirate...
Anyways, on to more important things. Today was an excellent day. I finally scrounged a chronograph, and have some concrete data for my loads. I also had a chance to try out another "test" load based on a load from the "12 gauge from Hell" designer Ed Hubel.
So here we are:
Blue Dot load average: 1385fps.
Now onto my other load. I came upon data for black powder loads for old bore rifles, and decided I would stop being a girl and load some up. So I settled on 175grs of Pyrodex behind a .730 round ball of approx 550gr weight, mostly because that was all I could fit into a 3" hull. The math said that this should run at around 1550fps, with around 9750psi.
Black powder load average: 1450.
A note on this load: Holy **** does it recoil like a bugger. I think it's true that a guy can get the same velocities with smokeless powder, but with less recoil. This will kick the crap out of you and your gun, so make sure the stock section is reinforced or it might get exciting.
Also note that this black powder load isn't crimped: Just take a previously fired 3" hull, stuff it full of powder, seat a fiber wad, then the round ball. Use a dab of white glue to keep everything in place. A 3" crimped round isn't long enough to hold all that ball and powder, so I had to make due with this. It worked, but it isn't pretty. Eventually I will track down some 3" brass hulls and make those work instead.
Lastly, I made up some loads using my copper slugs in front of 62 grains of IMR 4759. Unfortunately, during testing these out, we were snowed out, and the chronograph wouldn't register any velocities (the photoreceptors were covered in snow previously, then fogged up after cleaning, and it still was blizzarding, so that was the end of that.) At the very least though, this load didn't blow me up, so at least I know that much. I'll post the results next time I'm out.
The math regarding the above round is based on Ed Hubel's load of 65 gr IMR 4759 behind a 600gr slug @ 11800psi for 1650fps. THIS IS OVER PRESSURE BASED ON SAAMI SPECS REMEMBER My load is slightly less with regards to slug weight and powder weight, so it's speculation at this point. Like I said, I didn't blow up, and there was no tough extracting, so it looks promising.
THESE LOADS ARE SAFE IN MY GUN. I DON'T RECOMMEND ANYONE ELSE USE THEM WITHOUT WORKING UP SAFELY. USE CAUTION ETC. AND REMEMBER NO CHOKES.
Black Powder Load:
Fed 3" Paper Base Wad Hull
Win 209 Primer
175 grains Pyrodex
Fiber Wad
550gr .730 round ball.
"Touch-of-white-glue" crimp
1450fps @ 9800psi
IMR 4759 Load
Fed 3" Hull
Win 209 Primer
62gr IMR 4759
WAA12 Hull
580 Grain Copper Slug.
Estimated around 1480ish @ 10800psi. NOT CONFIRMED, BE CAUTIOUS
*AUTHORS NOTE: I just want to repeat here that I do these tests and report these velocities for myself only, and to inform others. I don't recommend that others follow in my path, as none of these loads are pressure tested, and are at best scientific speculation. I still have all my fingers and have had no accidents, so in my book that counts for something. But always remember to be safe, that these loads are tested in my gun and my gun only, and while I list these things for academic study only, you use this information at your own risk.
Anyways, I apologize for the legal nonsense, but there are always "those" people out there... Cheers!!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/01/10 04:29 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hansol - I won't use the phoney 'black' powders that contain chlorates. I use only real black powder.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 25/01/10 04:38 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Daryl,
I certainly would use the real black powder if I could get my hands on it. Unfortunately there is only one carrier of the stuff in my neck of the woods, and he only gets shipments in intermitantly. So I'm unforunately stuck using Pyrodex.
| Dono |
| (.224 member) |
| 28/01/10 11:01 AM |
Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Hi Hansol here in Tas years ago we had trouble getting slugs, We used to open up a shell and take out most of the shot[we use 3s on wallaby] we would then pour hot wax in a little at a time slowly replacing all the shot then recrimp .These work very well you may be able to use this idea to center your slugs and hold it to the wad.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 28/01/10 11:53 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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I adjust the wad column to allow a standard folded crimp over the ball.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/01/10 05:04 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Fed 3" Paper Base Wad Hull
Win 209 Primer
175 grains Pyrodex
Fiber Wad
550gr .730 round ball.
"Touch-of-white-glue" crimp
1450fps @ 9800psi
Balls must be harder than pure lead to be that light. a .715" pure lead ball weighs 545gr., normally. My chart lists .730" pure lead ball as weighing 583.3gr. - difference not important, just an observation.
My black powder load of 7 drams 2F (191gr.) fit inside a 2 3/4" plastic hull along with the base wad off a AA trap wad-w/fingers cut off - one cup-down on powder, one sup-up under ball, then taper crimped. - Fed Magic hull IIRC.
different hulls have different capacities. Some are straight sided inside, while others have tapered thickness sides.
| hansol |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/01/10 09:41 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Dono,
That wax idea of yours should work great! A lot less redneck than the "touch of white glue" crimp haha.
Daryl,
You could certainly be correct on the ball weight. All I know is they weigh less than the copper slugs when I weigh them out side by side. These days I am using old lead sheeting (originally used as sound insulation) with a bit of silver solder mixed in. It isn't an exact metalurgical science at this point, but it's the best I can do.
Regarding your black powder load, do you think it is possible that pure black powder is less "dense" than the pyrdodex, and that is why you can fit 191 grains into your hull? The most I could fit inside a 2 3/4 hull (federal) was around 150gr, with a fiber wad and the ball sitting on top of that, with the glue crimp. I'm not doubting you, (like you said, just an observation) but I suppose the best thing I can do is track down some 2f black and see how the two powders compare.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/03/10 06:27 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Pyrodex is less dense (lower specific gravity) than BP - to the tune of roughly 20%. That means the same quantity (volume) of Pyrodex weighs 20% less than the black powder. Pyrodex also contains 17% chlorates by volume.
| Tallchief |
| (.300 member) |
| 07/12/10 12:58 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Daryl et al,has anyone done similar testing with a 20 gauge SxS?
| 9dot3x74R |
| (.275 member) |
| 07/12/10 08:06 PM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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Quote:
Daryl et al,has anyone done similar testing with a 20 gauge SxS?
or a 16 bore? I have a little greener double that might make a nice ball gun if I add some sights.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 08/12/10 02:34 AM |
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Re: Hansol's Slug Gun Project
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I know some of the guys have loaded up smokeless or black powder (me included) in 12's with round balls to carry along for moose when we're duck hunting - stranger things have happened. Go duck hunting and come home with 700 pounds of real meat.
Some of the muzzleloading guys have likewise loaded one tube of their 12 bore side by sides with a plastic wad containing a 20 bore round ball. I'd prefer a 12 bore RB myself but they lacked the larger moulds.
I have a double bl. hammer 16 bore Husky - the rifle barrel of which is straight rifled, with a .704" groove diameter, .675" bore diameter. Thus, it is 15 bore on the lands, 13 bore in the grooves. Both tubes are chambered 16 bore- the left for paper or now, plastic. The right is the same chamber, meant for brass - due to their thinner construction, will carry a ball up to .704" in diameter - yet are identical to the neomal 16 bore chamber. The brss cases fit perfectly in either bore, but were normally used with black powder & round ball in the right chamber, while paper ctg. and either nitro or black powder with shot in the left tube.
The chambers are actually 2 5/8", not 2 3/4" nor 2 1/2".
I use a 2.4" brass 16 bore case, with large pistol primer, 3drams 2F (82gr.), 1/2" 14 bore fiber wad, heavy denim (12oz. ie: 030") patched 16 bore ball, which weighs 1oz. ie: 16 to the pound in pure lead. The left barrel gets plastics. The chambers are exactly .090" shorter than the plastic factory 16 gauge Fed. hulls which should not be fired in the shorter chambers - but, I do and they pattern beautifully even & tight modified with 1oz 6's. The left barrel is choked Mod. The right barrel (no choke, straight rifled) actually shoots better than cylinder at 28 yards. Gun was made in 1899 or 1900. As I shoot the ammo off, I am triming the hulls for future loading with shot.
The round balls shoot into about 2" at 30 yards & would be OK for moose, elk, deer, B.bear at close range, out to about 75 or 80 yards.