(.375 member)

01/12/05 07:12 AM

Big bore big Game penetration

All,

What kind of penetration/killing power can I expect with
my Kodiak 12 bore? Has any one used one of these or the like size on really big game like Cape Buff? I think Darly .S said his 12 bore passed through a moose,

Thanks,
Jason

(.450 member)

01/12/05 08:35 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

It partly depends on the composition of the projectiles
used (lead / antimony), partly what they hit on the way
through and the velocity.

I have heard of Buffalo knocked of there feet by 12 bore
guns including charges stopped dead.

Have a read of the 577 article in DGJ by I think Sherman Bell.
Similar results but on a more spectacular level would be had
with 12 bore.

I don't think you'd have a problem killing DG with it iif the shot is
in the right place and even if just off, the shock from being hit with
such a weight of lead is tremendous.

I notice the difference between a 470 Nitro and a 500 Nitro so 12 bore
would be Greater.

I'd hunt DG with an accurate one if I owned a bore gun.

500 Nitro

(.700 member)

02/12/05 05:28 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I am in total ent with 500 Nitro on this, mirroring Forsyth's teachings of 1860. Te 12 bore ball as tremendous potential, but not with piddling charges. It needs to be moving and in today's powders, Swiss might give the best results as it is some 20%+ greater energy than GOEX.
: 140gr., a moderate to light charge for a single 11 bore(.75), will actually exit a moose, broadside, and 200gr. will exit from almost any angle, but has low velocity and less power than I'd be comfortable with on DG.
: This complete penetration is with Canadian WW cast into .735" balls, running 12 to 13 brinel.
: The 12 bore rifle usually uses a .715 ball, about 545gr. in pure lead and 530gr. in WW metal. A slow twist with shallow rifling is needed to shoot hard lead with heavy charges. I know, as I used them in my .69 and with it's deeper, faster twist, hard lead could only be used with paper ctgs. I was lucky, in that the ball size matched 2 turns of typing paper, and shot as well as patched round balls with 6 drams of GOEX powder.
: Pure lead balls expand, which limits penetration on hard objects, even with low velocity loads. A mix of 50/50 lead to WW might work just fine in the rifle mentioned but I never got around to trying it. The mix would resist flattening and increase penetraion. Accuracy is of the utmost importance. Then, a velocity of 1,400fps should be attempted, if safe for the rifle being used. That should do the trick.
: The 14 bore required 165gr. to get 1,550fps, but a 12 bore's larger ball will require something in the relm of 200 to 220gr.to get that velocity. If the rifle is incapable of digesting this charge, perhaps it isn't capable of being a DG rifle and should be relegate to North American Game like Deer, Moose, Bear and Elk.

(.375 member)

02/12/05 07:05 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Is there any way to calculate the estimated MV based on bore/cal powder type, charge and bullet wieght?

I know that a lot of reloading books have these for smokeless rounds, but I've not seen one for muzzleloaders. I assume it because they are all a little bit different.

Second question, whats a good inexpensive chronograph I can pick up?

Thanks,
Colorado

(.333 member)

02/12/05 12:15 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Jason: Go to Beartoothbullets.com and in their ballistician's corner are various programs for calculating everything from energy to recoil to Taylor Knock-Out values. For velocities, look at the chrono readings I posted from my experience with the .72 Kodiak. I was relatively conservative, so the envelope can be pushed a bit.

(.375 member)

03/12/05 05:23 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

BillfromOregon,

What was the max charge you tried in your .72 kodiak?

Here's some stupid questions so forgive me.

I know different powders give different results, with out having to purchase each type and chrono'ing them can somebody who has already done this give me the skinny on them?

Does one type produce more pressure per grain, etc....

Thanks,
Colorado

(.333 member)

03/12/05 06:56 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Jason: If I reall correctly, the most I tried in my .72 was 150 grains of Goex FFg under the 835-grain conical.
With black, the finer the granulation, the higher the pressure. Fg, normally the coarsest sporting grade, will give the least pressure and the most fouling, generally, but would be fine in the .72. I preferred FFg for a bit more velocity and a bit cleaner burn. Never tried FFFg, but you could try it with lighter loads; I would be a little nervous about getting much beyond 150 grains with FFFg. Four F (FFFFg) is priming powder for flintlocks, and could well destroy a Kodiak with its rapid pressure peak.
Most shooters say the Swiss brand of black is more powerful and clean burning than the Goex, but Goex has been working hard to improve its product, and it is good stuff.
I don't care for Pyrodex or the other substitutes, as they are usually harder to ignite and have fouling/corrosion issues of their own.

(.375 member)

04/12/05 03:56 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

So far I've been able to only find Pyrodex in FFg, and FFFg. I'll try these if the weather lets up this weekend. Its snowing of course, and butt cold.

Colorado

(.700 member)

08/12/05 07:18 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Due to the veloicties involved, you'll most likely get the best kilng power and penetration by using round balls.
: Forget the slugs - more recoil with no benefits over round balls.
: There were two separate loadings in 12 bore for brass shell rifles. 150gr. and 191gr. - a moderate, and a heavy load. The ctg. guns, of course didn't leak gas at the breech, therefore gave higher velocity than will a muzzleloading rifle. It is a substancial loss, even though it might not 'feel' so bad. In this bore, a 200fps loss is signifigant.
: These were the round ball loads of the pre-slug era.

(.375 member)

08/12/05 11:12 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I received my chrono last night, so I'm ready to do some testing as soon as the weather lets up. Its -1F right now, A bit cold for my shooting taste.

Jason

(.300 member)

13/12/05 07:47 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Gentlemen, I wouldn't make it a habit of using 150 grain charges in any of the Pedersoil doubles. They simply are not made to handle such charges. You are going to ruin some stocks and maybe even separate some barrel welds. 100 grain charges should be about the maximum. For what you are attempting to accomplish, you really need a heavy custom gun.

(.375 member)

15/12/05 07:04 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I've already used 130 grains with no ill effects. However, I would like to know your reasoning for mentioning the limit of 100 grains? So far I've found the quality of the gun exceptional, However if you know something I don't please inform me(us). I've read nothing but good things about the Pedersoli Kodiak's, many people have taken them to Africa and used them with great success. I did read one account of the 45-70 that had issues, But that was only one fellow...with what appears to be some very bad luck with his.

I can understand the smaller bores like 50cal, as this would be a magnum charge in any muzzle loader of that caliber. However, with the larger bore and cavity size the same load should produce lower pressures in the .72. At least this is my understanding. Of course you can also get into the whole type of powder, manufacturer, real vs. substitute etc... So 100 grains seems a bit arbitrary a number to me, but hey I'll be the first to admit I'm new to muzzle loaders and black powder guns.

Colorado<--newbee to 'loder's

(.300 member)

17/12/05 07:33 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

If I remember correctly the recommended load for a .50, .54 and .58 is 70 grains and that is the regulation with round ball. I don't know for certain about the .72. I owned a .50 that I was getting ready for Africa. My best load ended up being 120 grains of FFg with a 400 grain conical and a 435 grain sabot. I added musket cap ignition and a kick killer pad to keep it from slipping off my shoulder and recoiling into my upper arm. I fired the gun at that level about 20 times and witnessed no ill effects.... but these guns are not designed for massive charges and while they may hold up for awhile they were never manufactured for truly heavy dangerous game loads. I know some hunters who have gone after black bear and elk with them and had good luck but the powder charge levels were around 110 grains. I'm not knocking your gun. But I am recommending that you carefully consider how far you want to push your gun. A good double muzzleloader for dangerous game loads will normally cost at least $2,500. Such guns like those made for October Country are much more massive and can stand up to 150-grain + charges. Proceed carefully or you might ruin a fine gun. I ended up taking a custom double to Africa and leaving the Pedersoli home but it has provided good service at the 120 grain charge level.

(.375 member)

17/12/05 10:47 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I read your web page and even looked for a White Double, but could not find any information about it anywhere.
So you must have the one and only.

Colorado

(.300 member)

19/12/05 04:47 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

There is a photo of it at www.whitemuzzleloading.com and Doc is making a .54 like it. It is an experimental gun and there isn't another one like it. It was made from two model 97 Whites put together. We had some problems with the barrels separating at the weld and had to have it rewelded with a different soder because it is stainless steel. My load in Africa was 120 grains of Pyrodex RS and White's 600 grain conical bullet. I only used the gun for short range backup and putting down wounded game but it worked well. I converted it to musket cap ignition as well as I wasn't happy with #11 performance. I think a Pedersoli can match it at this powder charge level. A .58 shooting any of the 500+ grain conicals or a .50 shooting the Powerbelt 530 grain Dangerous game bullet. I've also been experimenting with 500 grain Hornady Interbonds in .458 MMp sabots in .50's and they are doing very well at the 120 to 140 grain charge levels. I just talked to a fellow and asked him how his .72 Kodiak did on a black bear hunt. He used a charge of 110 grains of FFg and took a nice 200 pounder at 50 yards. He was impressed with the gun's performance and accuracy. You have a nice gun with a lot of potential at a reasonable charge level. On the double sights. I sighted in the back sight at 70 yards for both barrels and sighted in the front sight (closest to the bore) for the left barrel at 100 yards. That way you can use the back sight for most close range hunting situation and the left barrel/forward sight for a long range shot. It works very well that way.

(.375 member)

19/12/05 11:29 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Thanks for the info and link. How much does a double white put one back? I thought about having a smithy weld two inline barrles together and making a double that exact way. However, my first scratch build is going to be a Oregon Barrel barrled 8 bore DG slammer based on the English sporting stock. Just waiting on the Christmass Bonus $$$ to come to buy the parts.

Colorado

(.375 member)

19/12/05 12:15 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I was just reading some interesting facts on Garret Cartridges about slow and hard bullets providing deep penetration. Which kinda follows along with what Daryl S. has been talking about all along and the results he's seen with his .69 cal. They make big holes and pass through the game completely. Thats killing force. To create a hugh wound channel, destroy lots of organs and break bones I think is better ballistics than ME alone. I'm seeing the light! I have always thought of just ME as the measure of killing power, but there's more to it.

Now question to Daryl, where can I get some WW .72 balls?

Colorado

(.400 member)

20/12/05 02:35 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

There is more to the garret formula than meets the eye. He is using a super hard, heat treated mono-metal solid with a huge metplat and very high sectional density. This allows him to slow them down to 45-70 velocities. If you really want to understand the relationship of metplat to wound channel, go to http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html It is a bit technical, but very interesting.

(.300 member)

20/12/05 04:42 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

That is also what is wrong with a lot of information put out by many of the inline marketers right now. They sell their muzzleloaders on velocity claims which are misleading. Bullet momentum is very important in muzzleloading. My .50 double cost me a thousand bucks... high for a muzzleloader but not bad for a big game double. Even the Pedersoli .45-70's will run $2500. But I have a problem going after a Cape with a .50 muzzleloader even with the bullets I've mentioned. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

(.333 member)

20/12/05 07:37 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Speaking of buff and muzzleloaders, there's a post on the African huntin forum at Accuratereloading.com on this very subject. The client used a Lyman Great Plains .50 with special bullet and killed his bull with one shot. I'm not advocating this by any means, but it is an interesting thread.

(.375 member)

20/12/05 03:03 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Why does man do anything dangerous, to test himself. If, as Capstick amd Ruark say, "something earned the hard way is something of value", then what truer test than to hunt dangerous game with a muzzleloader? You don't have to be stupid about it. Use enough gun and proper shooting style and it is not a stunt but a test of skill and nerve. I've seen the videos of the buff that gets hit and goes down then gets back up and takes 5 more rounds. The one I'm mentioning took six rounds from what looked like a 375 H&H. It is my personel opinion, that the hunter was a lousy shot and the rounds never hit vital areas. An 8 bore using hard round balls in the boiler maker would have nailed that buff to the ground. And thats an 8 bore double with another matched 8 bore double in reserve. Four rounds from an 8 bore should stop any critter on earth. I believe a 12 bore could perform very well, but an 8 bore would be safer.

IMHO,
Colorado

(.300 member)

21/12/05 03:11 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Of course modern sport hunting is different from what the old timers faced in Africa. Normally a muzzleloader hunter has a PH to back him up with a big game rifle if things get hairy. Most of the PH's I've talked to say that they can get a muzzleloader hunter to within 50 yards of a Cape and the big bore muzzleloaders should be effective at that range. I am planning on going back to Africa or Australia and going after a buffalo. I had decided that next time I was going to take restored open sight Mausers in 9.3X62 and .458 Win Mag but then a company asked if I wanted to test a Selous-vintage 4 Bore they are going to manufacture. How can any dedicated muzzleloader hunter pass on that? So, its going to be interesting to see how such a big gun will perform. Muzzleloading in Africa is capable of becoming very popular if vintage style guns become available but you'd still want that PH there to back you up.

(.333 member)

21/12/05 03:27 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Plains99: Of course you will keep all your envious friends here on the Nitro Express forum up to date about your adventures with the 4-bore won't you?
Can you tell us any more about it -- weight, barrel length, twist rate, set up for ball or conical?

(.700 member)

21/12/05 05:52 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Colorado - Jeff Tanner, in England, will cut you any size mould you want. All you have to do is to e-mail him with the dia requested. Mine, from him, arrived in 1 week from the order date, along with a bill to send $23.00 US to a California address. The moulds fit any standard handles and while they don't have sprue cutters, the resulting sprue is easily snipped off with wire strippers(my favourite). A quick bvrush with a wood rasp, removes any trace of sprue so they can be loaded without orientation. I use a small dia hole in the strippers for snipping off the sprues - (quick and easy)
: The moulds case about .003" under size, so if a .720" is required, order a .723" mould. These measurements are approximate, as definitve numbers aren't necessary.
: Although recoil goes up radically with heavy charges in large bores, pressure doesn't. A 12 bore rifle actually developes less pressure to obtain 1,300fps than does a .50 or .54 calibre rifle, both shooting round balls. Recoil is the killer for stocks, however, if well made, there shouldn't be a problem. The big bores become nice plinkers with small charges in the 90 to 110gr. range and are more than sufficient for deer and black bear with those charges. Accuracy at longer ranges may suffer with light charges, as it did in my rifle.
Good luck and mail me if I can be of further assistance.
: Set aside the Labour-day weekend (1st Sept) next year for a week-long rendezvous at Heffley Ceek, B.C. just north of Kamloops. There, you can compete against my .69. What fun!

(.300 member)

22/12/05 03:59 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Not too much yet. It will be a round ball gun but I don't know the twist rate. They will be sending a mold with it so I can cast some balls. Weight of the balls should be around 1,750 grains in a .955 diameter and I imagine the charge rate will be in the neighborhood of 450 grains of Fg. I expect from those figures that it ought to generate around 1350 fps and around 6,000 pounds of muzzle energy. I hope the weight of the gun will be from 14 to 16 pounds to control recoil. It is supposed to be a copy of Selous' 4 bores and from photos of his muzzleloaders it ought to be a fairly short gun. I have no idea how fancy it will be but the Selous guns were quite plain.

(.700 member)

22/12/05 05:57 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I seem to recall Selous 4 bore was a shortened Dutch fowler. The barrel was shortened to something like 24" or 26".
: I-too would hope for more weight than a 'fowler' might have. Perhaps it will have enough weight. The double barreled 4 bores weighed some 20 lbs. to 24 lbs. yet kicked horrendously - well over 200lb. recoil as tested by W.W. Greener. A .460 WTBY has some 86 pounds recoil for expample, and a .458 Winchester some 56 pounds recoil.
: .955" sounds a bit small, but then, a smoothbore requires a smaller ball than a rifle does. .955" is just over 6 bore which is around .92", I believe. Is a 4 bore not 1.1"? If so, I would think a ball 1.05" would allow a .030" thick patch which is very heavy denim, with .005" compression each side. This would be very easy to load and shoot. I would think a .955 ball too small (for a 1.1" bore), requiring a .073" thick patch just to reach each side.
: Is it possible, they are making a smaller, 5 bore instead? For all intents and purposes, it is much the same.
: Too many questions without having the gun in your hands- sorry, but, food for thought, just the same.

(.300 member)

22/12/05 10:45 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Daryl: I'm only guessing and really don't know what they will send. I too am aware of the Dutch "fowler" conversions and hope that it is more of a weighty rifle configuration. They pounded Selous to pieces... yet the Boers hunted with 4 bores a lot... and seemed to do quite well with them. I'm in way over my head on this one because the biggest thing I've ever had in my hands is a .72 and can't imagine what it will be like to shoot such a brute. I've hunted a lot with big custom .58's that handled powder charges up to 150 grains very well but this is a completely different galaxy. Since the plan is to market it in RSA for hunters I imagine it will be a pretty solid rifle and probably heavier than the fowlers. And I'm only guessing on the loads from reading. Gregor Woods has some pretty good discussions on the 4 bore in his book "Rifles for Africa." Needless to say I've poured through it and reread Selous' first book. When I know more I'll share cause with South Africa's new gun regs, a historically correct pre-1890 muzzleloader is subject to no restrictrions and I've always felt that on bush game preserves a muzzleloader is a very credible way to enjoy a top knotch hunting experience.

(.375 member)

22/12/05 12:50 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Bravo! Bravo! My thoughts exactly! Hince the purchase of the Kodiak 12 bore as my first tippy toe into the Bore Guns and DR of old. I've since concluded that I really want to custom smith up my own single shot 12 or 8 bore. I've been researching like crazy and have contacted Joe from Oregon Barrles about making either. They have 12 bores in stock with 1-70 twist, that are 1 1/8" width; which just fits the Long Rifles Supply's English Rigby Sporting stock. I think this would make a darn usable BP DG gun.

Colorado

(.700 member)

23/12/05 04:14 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

My .69 has a 1-1/8" octagonal barrel, straight and 30" long. It handles up to over 200gr. of powder just fine, but shot best with 165gr.2F, GOEX BP. this gave me 1,550fps with it's 484gr. bullet. It has a GR barrel with a faster twist than I wanted but was all that was available in that calibre in 1986.

(.375 member)

09/01/06 05:22 PM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I think I've find the ticket. 130grns Triple 7, tight weave patch (old levi dockers Kaki), shotgun wad base. Was able to do this grouping all day long. Next I'll step up the load and see would happens.

(.700 member)

10/01/06 03:50 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Now that looks pretty good. Congratualtions.
: Although 130gr. seems to be a very heavy load, and is more than suitable for EVERYTHING over here, it is some 40gr. under the light 12 bore load for Africa.(if T7 equals GOEX BP for vel., 20gr. under if equals Swiss.) My testing lets me think that 130gr. 2F GOEX would suffice for most nasty game, expect perhaps CapeBuff and Elephant. I would be wanting the heavy 12 bore power for those, I think.
; I am certain, you'll be quite happy with it, though. Nice to get it working, finally.
: Have you shot it past 50yards yet? Do the balls maintain their respective impacts?

(.375 member)

10/01/06 05:30 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

I did a penetration test as well with this load into a bucket of wet sand. The pure lead deformed into cup about 1.25 to 1.35 in size. It traveled about 10 inches into the sand and did not pass all the way through the bucket.

I'm not sure how well these are going to kill, I think I might need some harder material to get the penetration.

I'll post the pics of the bullets tonight.

Colorado

(.700 member)

10/01/06 08:44 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

You will find, that on Elk, Moose and bear, the pure lead balls will exit, as they have on about 15 moose so far. That is a .735" ball ahead of from 130 to 200gr. 2F froma .75 cal rifle. The fellow shooting this rifle dropped his load to 100gr. just to keep aball inside a Bull Moose.
: Now, the beauty of a large bore, slow twist rifle with .008" deep rifing, is that it will also shoot WW balls running 10 to 13 brinel just fine. You may have to adjust your patch for ease of loading, but with the wad separating the powder charge from the patch, a thinner patch should be just fine. Use enough BP lube on it, and go for it.
: Sand does no equate to meat, ribs and lung tissue very well.
: My bro put a .735 ball from a Brown Bess through to the off side of a big cow moose, using 100gr.2f. The ball expanded slightly to 1" in dia. after cutting through ribs on both sides.

(.375 member)

20/01/06 06:00 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Last weekend I was playing around with my 45-70 1895 as well as the 12 bore. And I tell you, those 45 cal holes looked comical compared to the .72!

Even if you aren't hitting the animal with a million FPE, the size of the hole and wound channel those balls make alone would kill the thing pretty dang quick. Its like driving a cookie cutter through the animal.

I've been watching Mark Sullivan's "Death by the Ton", and those Cape Buff really take some lead (sometimes). Of course shot placement is critical as always, but even still, some of the beast took 7 shots from either .375 H&H, 450NE, 475NE, and always the .577NE.

The .375 shooters fired more rounds on average, however, one fellow did dropped his buff with one shot to the chest. Good shot placement. But if the buff was charging would that be enough to drop it instantly? I think a good brain shot would, and I've seen an elephant drop with one shot to the brain with a .375 H&H. And of course Bell used the 303(or simular) with great success (brain shooting). But with a big, mean, mad critter, a large diameter bullet has to be devastating. Imagen a hole in buff's skull big enough to put a quarter through, thats gotta hurt. I have to think that this 12 bore would kill disproportionately to its FPE would suggest. Course I could be way off too.

Thanks,
Colorado

(.375 member)

20/01/06 06:09 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

Daryl,

This may be a stupid question, but what is WW lead?

Thanks,
Colorado

(.700 member)

20/01/06 07:14 AM

Re: Big bore big Game penetration

WW is wheel weights - here, they avaerage brinel 13 for hardness. Inother locals or from other supplies, they can be somewhat softer.
: In the .50 cal ctg. rifles, I use 50/50, WW and pure lead with no leading to 2,000fps. The bullets MUST be .002" oversize or they will lead. This seems to be universal for case bullets for rifles as well as handguns. In wheelguns, .001" oversize usually works just fine. Trouble arrises with leading if the bullets are sized to groove dia. and in some, even if .001" oversize. Generally, AS-CAST is the best as rarely does a modern mould cast more than .002" oversize.
: The softer lead (than some people use) continues to press against the barrel walls, to effectively seal off the gas pressures. Hard lead bullets must be oversize initally to maintain a tight fit as they won't slug-up while travelling down the barrel to help with the fit. My loads in .357mag. and .44 mag revolvers use only straight WW metal, without leading. My barrels are smoothly polished to start with.
: In the .50 rifles, I used SPG lube as well as Lyman BP lube for both BP and smokeless loads with clean shooting and great accuracy. Recently, I've started using Lyman Moly stick lube (not the old black stuff they've sold for 50 years) and it too seems to be good. The moly lube is for smokless loads only. For BP loads, use only BP lube.

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