(.224 member)

03/07/05 03:56 AM

best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Hi, I am new in this board and I am from austria, and I am intersted in hunting deer and elk with an black powder catridge rilfe. But I don't realy know which caliber and rifle I schould buy.

I would be pleased hearing a few rifle and catridge tipps.
thanks

(.333 member)

04/07/05 07:04 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

.45/70 will probably be the easiest to load and use the most commonly available brass and bullets and the widest variety of rifles will be chambered for the .45-70.

You are in for a mess to load blackpowder though.

You may wish to read this 40 page, 200k pdf manual first before choosing a cartridge:

Introduction to Blackpowder Cartridge Reloading

Richard.

(.700 member)

10/08/05 05:56 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Hi - I'm new here, but certainly not new to hunting Moose, Elk or Deer with large bore rifle ctg. guns, modern rifles or ML rifles.
: I don't think there is any "BEST" ctg. for these large animals. I would prefer something in .40 cal or above, with 300gr. or more of lead. The ctg. should handle 65gr. of BP minimum. A .45/60 might be just fine, close-in, as most bush shooting happens to be for say, less than 100yds. shooting. 40-50's are for deer at best, but probably great for that.
: That said, the 45-70 does a good job as always, and the .50's are even better with 70 to 100gr. powder.
: The 3-1/4" cases are very difficult to get to shoot well when shot dirty - that is, without having to wipe the bore between shots.
: Paul Mathew's books on loading BP ctg. rifles are excellent and almost manditory for good results.
: His recommendations on lube and methods of loading turned my .45 3-1/4 into a MOA rifle with it's iron sights. The methods work with all ctgs. no matter what bore size or case length.
: I'd hold case length to 2 7/8" max in .45 and 2 1/2" in .50. More powder isn't needed nor recommended due to increased recoil for very little gain, if any.
: Most .50's have too slow a twist for good shooting - a 24" to 28" twist is about as slow as works really well - that is, getting good accuracy in the sub - 2" range.
; My "Optimum" BP ctg. would be a .50/90 with 24" twsit using the Luman 520gr. or RCBS 550gr. grooved lubricated slugs. Our .50 Alaskan (2.1" .348 case) Bro's Sharps and my RB made consistant 10" and better groups at 450yds. with these bullets in McGowen 24" twist barrels.(shot off the hood of a truck)
: I hope this helps with your decision on an Elk or Moose ctg.

(.224 member)

17/09/05 05:01 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

ok thx for your informativ answers. I will report when I have got my rifle.

(.275 member)

26/09/05 04:42 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I like the 50-90 and stuff in that range, also any of the British BP Express cartridge rifles. A buddy has a Martini sporter in 577/500 Express and it seems like it would be a tremendous rifle for the purpose. Certainly the 45-70 needs mention as it is so easy to find the cases, bullet moulds and such to load them, even if it is a bit on the light side when loaded with black, but still not too bad if ranges are kept reasonable.

(.224 member)

26/09/05 08:37 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

ok thx again for the answers, I will buy my rifle next week.

. I will buy an sharps replica in 50-90 or 50-70 government.

ps: is there a big differnce (terminal) in performance between the 50-70 und the 50-90?

(.275 member)

26/09/05 11:41 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I have no experience with either, but from what I have read the 50-90 gets a lot more range and thump. If it were me I would go for the 50-90. But if I were to use such a rifle in close cover for deer etc. a carbine in 50-70 might be the right thing. But in the bigger elk I would prefer to use the 50-90

(.700 member)

27/09/05 12:52 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

For a hunting gun intended for Elk, I'd probably go with the 50-90 as well as it is optimal in the BP ctgs.for really big game. The trouble with comercial barrels for it is the 36" twist, which will work fairly well with 450gr. bullets. Some people have reasonable luck with 500 to 550gr. slugs, but the longer bullets might not be stable after impact with that slow a twist.
: We mustn't snear at the 50-70 as it is a much better round than the .45/70, back int he 1870's and now as well.
: Unlike the present day's 45/70 capacity of 65gr., 76gr. of black powder can be put in the 50/70 case & indeed, 76gr. of Black Mag 3 can be used for almost 1,500fps with 420gr. slugs. With straight BP, the velocities run down around the 1,300fps range, but accuracy is still good.
: There are a flood of good lubricants now-a-days that work well with BP and it's phone replacements like Pyrodex and BlackMag3. Of lubes that work in lube sizers, Lyman has a couple stick BP lubes, OxYoke has a stick bore butter and SPG is one of the best. As well, a mix of 40% Vaseline, 60% Beeswax is also a GREAt BP lube, keeping the fouling soft and maintaining shot after shot accuracy.

(.224 member)

27/09/05 05:02 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

ok thx again for your answers, as I am intersted in hunting deer and elk I will buy 50-90 sharps.

ps: would bullet weight would you recomend for deer and elk?

(.275 member)

28/09/05 03:05 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

it depends on the twist rate of the rifling. Lee makes moulds that are 450gr and 500gr as I recall. Even the lighter bullets in the .50 are going to do the job. I use very short bullets in my .577 Sniders. 320gr round ball and 430gr conical, anything longer and I cannot hit my targets as the twist is so slow. I am not sure of the twist on these Sharps .50's, but try to match the bullet to the twist.

Perhaps someone knows the ideal bullet for these rifles?

(.224 member)

08/10/05 07:43 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

ok thx again for your answers, I have preorderd my sharps yesterday, i will report when I have got my rifle.

(.700 member)

06/02/06 06:32 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I suggest the RCBS mould for a flat-nosed 440 to 460gr. bullet. Most of the Sharps copies have a 36" rifling twist, and will shoot this bullet well. You shouldn't need to size this bullet and should shoot it as cast. I suggest the rCBS mould rather than the Lyman 450gr. .515141 due to the Lyman bullet being quite pointed and lacks "punch" to the animal. It will work, but the RCBS is a better hunting bullet. The 36" twist isn't a very good rate of twist for 500gr. or heavier bullets, but some say they shoot well.
: www.trackofthewolf.com has brass, wads and other loading supplies such as lubricants and possibly moulds as well.
: If you can go to the Hodgdon web site you may find smokeless loads for the .50/90 Shaprs, as well as the Accurate Arms powder site. Both have good loads iwth a variety of smokeless powders.
: If you want to use black powder or one of the modern substitutes, a 90 to 95gr. charge, with very thin wad of paper or wax paper (to keep lubricant disk from spoiling the charge), then a lubricant disk about 1/8" thick, then card wad, then the lubricated bullet.
: Lyman, SPG and OxYoke all make very good black powder lubricants that shoot well.
: 60% beeswax and 40% valseline is an exceptional home made bullet lube for black powder. These all work well with smokeless powders too.
: If you have any difficulty, mail me at dtlc@telus.net I'd be happy to help in any way possible.

(.300 member)

06/02/06 10:00 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I currently am using a 45-70 but have taken a few elk with a 40-65 which has a little less recoil and shoots a bit flatter than the 45-70 with 500's. I will be building a 50 of some kind in near future with the hope of someday getting in a buffalo hunt with it. If I was just starting in bpcr rifles I would start with a 45-70 or a 40-65 as they are the easiest to load for and have readily available brass. when shooting game I always use heavy for caliber bullets. I have had great results in the western U.S. with paper patch bullets on both deer and elk.

(.375 member)

08/02/06 10:22 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I'm getting a double 12 bore sleeved in 50-90 as we speak. Should be ready in about two weeks. Its a good thumper in BP; velocities for 100 grn Fg are around 1350FPS for a 450grn bullet and 1450FPS FFg and 100grn. This yields about 2100FPE. Smokeless of course can take this up to around 1900 to 2000 FPS and around 4000+ FPE. Yikes!

Colorado

(.700 member)

09/02/06 06:32 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I've just requested info on a new .50 barrel from Track for my 4140 Italian-actioned Sharps. Presently, it has an original 1859 percussion barrel, re-lined and chambered by Sharps in 1868 under government contract.
; The original lined barrel has the 42" twist, common for the day. Too bad it didn't have the other twist used and present on some .50/70's of 1 turn 1 in 24". If it was that one, I'd keep shooting it. It will shoot into 3" at 100 meters with it's original battle sights, with a shortened 450gr. Lyman bullet, original style and BP.
: I will chamber it for the .50Alaskan, probably, due to my stock of .348Winchester brass. I think I can live with 500gr. at almost 2,000fps and 600's close to 1,800fps. I expect they will work well on the beasts of this province.
: Quite possibly, the #4 taper blank, just over 1" in diameter and 35" long, would be a good one for the liner job you're doing.
: I anxiously await word of the double .50x2-1/2", Colorado. I do hope they don't use the 56" twist .50/110 barrel for the liners.
: Track does sell an 11/16" dia. liner in .50 with 1-24" twist, but it is undersize to line a 12 bore, at only .687" dia. It might line a 16 bore OK, but that would make for a thin liner turned to .662".
: I'm not sure what sort of pressures a 12 bore double can take as they only shoot 12,000LUP max pressures in shotshell ammo. I'm sure many aren't designed for much more than that. Perhaps, Browning and Rugers are annomolies here and are suitable as are the Ruger over/unders.

(.400 member)

09/02/06 06:54 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Daryl,

Why don't you pick up a nice vintage 500 BPE double? My goal with the A. Hollis 500/450 is to work up a nitro for black load with 350gr. for deer and elk.

(.416 member)

09/02/06 10:32 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I'm getting 2025fps with a Hornady 350gr SNRN, shoting to the sights of my 500/450 3-1/2" Magnum BPE Tolley.
That's with about seventy-six grains of Varget and a Federal 215 primer.

I haven't worked a load up for anything in the 270-325 grain range, but considering the rate of twist in those bores, I might have good luck with the lighter bullets too.

--Tinker

(.375 member)

09/02/06 11:48 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Daryle,

The barrels are custom made for the gun and not a liner purchased from track. They are made from the same steel blanks that Ruger uses, and are extremely strong. The pressure load is carried in them and not the 12ga barrels. They (12ga) are only there to hold the sleeves in place. Since the regulation is done with the inserts, and not the 12ga barrels, the 12ga barrels are re-enforced to prevent separation before the sleeves are inserted. Its a good strong setup. Twist is what ever I want, so I told him 1-20 to 1-24" which ever he feels works best. He (gunsmith) has converted about 50 of these with great success, never having one fail yet. His reputation is very much on the line, so I'm sure he is telling the truth. I told him I have many interested parties in doing this conversion as well, and will be posting my experiences with the gun on this and another forum. This should keep him honest!

the extractors are modified so that they work fully, just like a double should. I ordered a blade and three leaf express sight from jeffsoutfitters.com for $82.00 total for the project. I will also install a night flip-up bead for it as well. Max load for regulation is a 450grn bullet at 1900FPS for about 3500FPE. I don't need anymore than that for this gun. MAX PSI the barrels can take is well over 50000PSI, but the action would come off face with to many of these loads. Max I would take this gun to is about 1950FPS and ~4000FPE. This is only a hunting load. Most loads will be around the 1400FPS range to reduce recoil and load on the action. At this pressure and loads the action will never wear out. BTW, this is the typical FPS from a full BP load of 100grns FFg. Remembering that this is FUN shooter and not a DG gun, I think it should be up to the task. My next conversion (haven't got this one done yet!) is to use a Greener t17 action or the CZ-USA 12Ga sidelock. The CZ's are cheap, strong as heck, good looking, sidelocks, double bite with a greener cross-bolt and fairly high quality. They could handle the 50-140 Sharps with no issues. Being a lower pressure cartridge, the action should be able to handle close to a 4500FPE (remembering FPE means nothing other than a number for comparesion) load all day long; maybe more.

Just need to get ramped up in the reloading now.

Colorado

(.700 member)

09/02/06 01:59 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Cool!- I was only concerned about the action itself coming off face, not the barrels themselves.
; Many line jobs, eliminate the original barrels ahead of the breech-stubs anyway. Many double's smooth barrels are sweated into the breech stubs. A while back, one of the fellows did a photo expose' on the .450#2 Express he built on a double rifle & the regulations wedges he planted in the middle and at the muzzles prior to sweating on the ribs.

(.700 member)

09/02/06 02:08 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

$$$$$ my friend, $$$$$. I am on a fixed disability pension so I must make or cobble together most of what I shoot.
: A .500 BPE would be absolutely delightful. My Engish gun collector friend has one that shoots into a 3" circle at 100meters, 2 lefts, 2 rights, with each bore's groups just over an inch. IT is pretty much perfect. The group centres are horizontal as well. It likes the hard #515141 Lyman bullet, lubricated disk wad and a case full of Pyrodex.
: His other BPE's about 8 of them, are all .577 and larger & kick too much for this old guy - but are fun to shoot.
: He's presently looking for a good 875gr. grooved bullet for the .577. I expect he'll get something from NEI.

(.700 member)

09/02/06 02:18 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I've just read an article by Mike V. in Handloader or Rifle stating the Shilo is now rifling at 22" twist in the .50's. If this is correct and I see no reason to disbelieve Mike, it's GREAT news. Any bullet ot 600 or 700gr. will shoot, as will the 450gr. Lyman or RCBS Fn bullet.
: RCBS 550gr. FN and Lyman 520gr. are also a good, accurate grease groove bullets.
: A PaperPatched bullet would be fine, but for repeat shooting, needs special wads a sin a wax or wax paper disk between the BP lube ball and black powder, then card wad, then bullet. This takes up a lot of powder space in the caae, but he bullet need only be in the case about 3/16" as the rest wil slide up nto the rifling. The Patched bullet should be bore size to .001 over bore size for BP loads. Cast in pure lead, they'll slug up and shoot exceptionally well, for strings of 10 if you want.
: With smokeless loads and paper patched bullets, the lube ball is not needed, but there must be lube on the paper itself and the bullet will need to be patched to.001" or so over groove diameter. They should shoot very cleanly, giving exceptional expansion on game to whatever range you can shoot accurately.

(.224 member)

12/07/06 03:33 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Hi, its me again, and in the meantime I have saved enough money to buy an good bp rife. I have got a new question: I have got the chance to get a Martini sporter at fairly good price in 577/500 Express. What do you think about that caliber? Would it be a better chocie for deer and elk, than the 50-90?

(.450 member)

12/07/06 08:33 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

agent00

Which 577/500 ? as there were a few.

It is not a very popular round in either Single or Double Rifles
- brass is scarcer as well.

I would try for a straight walled 450 or 500 BPE or
of course one of the 45-xxx or 50-xxx.

Can't comment on the ballistic side of things.

500 Nitro

(.375 member)

14/07/06 04:55 AM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

*

(.300 member)

14/07/06 12:43 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

I have taken or seen taken at least a dozen elk with BPC cartridges from 45-90 to 40-65 and can say in my opinion that they all worked very well with pp bullets and grease groove bullets. The 40-65 is easier on the shooter and also easy to load for and is my current favorite but i could not tell a lot of difference on the critters with any of them. Get one and learn to load and shoot it and go hunting! good luck!

(.300 member)

23/12/06 04:35 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Quote:

Cool!- I was only concerned about the action itself coming off face, not the barrels themselves.
; Many line jobs, eliminate the original barrels ahead of the breech-stubs anyway. Many double's smooth barrels are sweated into the breech stubs. A while back, one of the fellows did a photo expose' on the .450#2 Express he built on a double rifle & the regulations wedges he planted in the middle and at the muzzles prior to sweating on the ribs.

Even the Italian Sharps is not going to have headspace problems with anything you would want to shoot though it recoil wise, unless they forgot to even case harden it and even then its pretty darned strong. Much better than a double rifle.
A 4140 alloy 74 Sharps, if heat treated in the same way is likely stronger than a Ruger #1. Since they are generally only case hardened they might be marginally weaker but 50K PSI in a Shiloh 45-70 will not produce any headspace.

So far as a BPCR for Elk? 40-70 BN with a 350 gr or maybe a 45-100 with a 350-420 grain bullet. 1:40 alloy and a good flatpoint. Bullets heavier than 380 in the 40 and 420 in the 45 are not needed for elk. In fact the heavy bullets don't work as well on game this size in many cases.
American Bison are another matter.
I would not worry excessively about bullets over 450, *maybe* 500 grains in the 50 either. The 50s are real sledge hammers even with BP with this weight bullet. Bullet nose design is not even as important with the 50s as it is with the 40s (critical) or 45s (not as critical).

Dan

(.700 member)

25/12/06 01:11 PM

Re: best bp catridge for hunting deer and elk?

Either the .45 or .50 cal. would be my choice. With paper patched bullets and black powder, pure lead bullets can be used to good advantage, or 50/50 Wheelweights and pure lead makes a good alloy as well. With grooved bullets, .001" to .003" over groove diameter, straight wheelweights work well for me in both calibres, using SPG, Lyman BP lube or 60/40 Beeswax/vaseline.

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