|
|
2 groove rifles
|
|
A 14 bore 2 groove sporter has caught my eye. What are your experiences with rifles of this type?
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
21/09/15 11:42 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
It may have a rapid twist, perhaps too fast for a hunting load with a round ball - hard to say without measuring it. The gun is probably not meant for elongated slugs, being a .69 cal. however a very short one might work in the 600gr. range.
It would probably be a good idea to find out what the rate of twist is.
|
|
CowboyCS
|
|
(.333 member)
|
|
21/09/15 12:25 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Some 2 groove rifles are designed to work with a belted ball. 
If it is, Jeff Tanner can probably make you a ball mould.
Hope that helps,
Colin
|
|
DoubleD
|
|
(.400 member)
|
|
21/09/15 02:36 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
The two groove as pictured by Cowboy is Brunswick. It should make on twist in barrel length. It is a muzzle loading percussion single. 14 gauge would be right around .69
There are several types of Brunswick's and other 2 groove rifles.
We need whole lot more information about your gun before we can help you like is this a muzzleloader or bolt action or something else.
Pictures are always helpful also.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
I awaiting response from the seller as to rate of twist. This is a percussion sporting rifle by a good London maker, about the late 1830's time frame. I think it is a belted ball gun but am not sure.
|
|
rglenz
|
|
(.300 member)
|
|
21/09/15 10:48 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Hi Steve
I've been hunting with a George Gibbs two groove 20 bore for a few years,I have taken five bucks with it to date. My rifle has a rather slow twist,a little faster than 1/3 twist in a 30" barrel.Some things I have found with my rifle are,__ if the velocity is too low the belted ball goes unstable before a hundred yards but with the right charge an orange has no chance at the same distance. Felt wads between the powder and ball don't work in my rifle,it likes the patched ball on the powder. Round balls,(no belt) shoot okay,but with less powder or they strip. Mr. Gibbs made this rifle rather handy at 5 3/4 lbs.,it gets your attention when fired.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Sounds like a great rifle and Mr. Gibbs holds a very special spot in my heart. I would love to see pictures. How many grains of powder are you shooting in it?
Steve
|
|
rglenz
|
|
(.300 member)
|
|
21/09/15 11:51 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
It needs at least 75 grains of 2F with the belted ball. The rifle was a wreck with a good bore when I found it.From the looks of the rifle it spent some time in the tropics and then Bubba did his best to destroy the lock,thank god they didn't mess with the single set trigger. I should have the engraving recut and the barrel browned so it's not very photogenic right now. there is a faint from wear, number 1 engraved on the trigger gaurd tang that I find interesting,could be 1 of a pair or? My camera is borrowed out for a few days,I,ll see what I can do about photo's.
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
22/09/15 12:59 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Quote:
I awaiting response from the seller as to rate of twist. This is a percussion sporting rifle by a good London maker, about the late 1830's time frame. I think it is a belted ball gun but am not sure.
Yes - Pretty sure it is for a belted ball. The reason I wanted the rate of twist, was to see if it would be worthwhile purchasing.
If in the 3foot to 4foot range, I don't think I would be very much interested, but it has more interest in 4' or 5' twist rate, though. At 4', it might be possible to use as much as 120gr. of 2F, which would work on NA game quite well.
According to Forsyth, many English Gun makers added the belts to the common-for-the-day fast twist rates to attempt to get the gun to handle heavy loads & not strip due to the extra "purchase" in the bore. He noted they fouled excessively and would not shoot well due to the rapid rate of twist and required light charges not suitable for the range of game they were designed for.
This is why I suggested a short conical - which would have to have wings cut in the mould to fit the grooves.
|
|
rglenz
|
|
(.300 member)
|
|
22/09/15 01:17 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Steve,after much frustration with this computer, I sent a photo to your email.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
My Forsyth book has been getting plenty of use. I too have read about the tendency of British makers during this time period to put too fast of a twist in barrels. I'm anxious to find out what the seller has to say. It is a lovely rifle in need of some love, but thankfully never restored in the past.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
I finally heard back on the twist, 1:32". Might be belted ball or as a friend suggested, it could be designed for a winged conical. Thoughts appreciated.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
you all know I'm a sucker for a project. I finalized the deal this week. William Moore percussion sporting rifle in need of some love, especially the broken stock. The good news is the bore is in very good condition.
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
04/10/15 03:10 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
If that little crack ahead of the drip bar is the broken stock, it is nothing & is easily repaired. The crack above and behind the hammer will require some repair if not already done. Looking good. Lock & barrel removed will show the extend of the upper crack.
|
|
TH44
|
|
(.375 member)
|
|
04/10/15 09:52 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Nice rifle, thanks for posting
What is calibre, barrel length? and more pics would be appreciated!
TH44
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Hmmm- a set trigger? Interesting! I like the rolled stag, not your common engraving! And vented blow out plugs to boot. Steve, I forgot about sending pics of the Purdey- any interest?
Doug
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Doug,
This rifle has me satisfied as far a percussion guns go at the moment.
Yes a set trigger, a 32" bbl, 14 bore, 2 groove about 1:32" twist. William Moore apprenticed as a stock maker at Manton's. The stock repair will be a challenge but will work out I'm sure. The restoration on this rifle will be as sympathetic as possible.
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
04/10/15 10:58 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Ahhhh - 14 bore - my favourite size! But - does not look to be over 9 pounds. It would therefore be for a belted ball. I'd think a winged conical might be too much for it, recoil wise.
|
NitroX
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
04/10/15 04:57 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
I love the dead stag, legs up, on the sidelock. 
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Well it arrived today. The crack or break I should say is much worse than I had hoped for. It broke into 3 separate pieces and will require a very elaborate repair but I can do it. The bore is very nice and if I can figure it out, it should shoot. It weighs 8lbs 4ozs and while I am disappointed with the extent of the wood damage I am also excited to get it up and going. A casting will go off to Jeff Tanner in the next week or so and the wood repairs will begin after hunting season. I hope to be test firing different loads by spring.
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
24/10/15 09:25 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
I'm excited too, bouldersmith. Nice rifle and I'm sure it will be fine. How's the bore? Since it has a wedge and patent breech, it will be easily cleaned. Can't tell about the original nipple (they called them tubes), but a replacement should be thought about. Trackofthewolf dot com might even have the proper threaded nipple in stock. YOu will have to measure the pitch and find if it is a whitworth thread, standard or even metric. You may have to make one. If so, pls get a standard 1/4/28 threaded nipple from a BP shooter or track, and copy the external in internal design. You do not want to damage the cock.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
The bore is very, very good. I think if I can figure it out it should shoot great. A new nipple is also on the to do list.
|
|
Ash
|
|
(.400 member)
|
|
27/11/15 08:35 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Rglenz - would still like to see it! 
Bouldersmith - nice pick up! Looking forward to hearing how it shoots
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Well first time to the range today. Too bloody hot but I had to send a few down range. Having some eye issues currently related to the pollen season but managed the first shot over 70 grs of FFG and a lubed Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad dead in the bull, the next two a couple of inches out giving me a 3" group but a bunch of that was me and I was working up in powder volume by 10 grs each shot. I think with some practice I can cut that in half. Looks like I have a shooter and may be able to prove the good General Forsythe wrong about fast twist ball guns. This one seems very happy so far. More testing on a cooler day.....oh yeah, I have bull tag in Unit 20 this year as well. Things are looking up!!!
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
20/06/17 08:35 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
General? My book says he was Lieutenant James Forsyth,M.A. - as of 1863. What happened after that, I do not know.
Your results will be interesting indeed.
In the days Forsyth's book was written, the fast twist guns with standard rifling did poorly, stripping, etc. Grooving as your rifle was done to prevent stripping.
Forsyth's concerns even with the belted ball in fast twist barrels, was they they were not accurate with the large charges normally used for tiger, buffalo and elephant.
He stated that their owners merely used the heavy charges anyways and put up with less accuracy, they still shot as well as smoothbores, which worked in close just fine.
I've shot several smooth bored 20 to 11 bore guns that will hold right about the 3" to 4" for 5 shots at 50 yards with tightly patched balls.
To prove Forsyth wrong about his twist criticisms & their unsuitability for large dangerous game, you would have to use the same loads as he did - 5 to 8 drams or at least 4 1/2 to 6 drams - as in 123gr. to 164gr., as well as using a powder like Swiss 1 1/2F or 2F.
I am fearful your old stock might not like that very much, but, the results would be MOST interesting.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Oh I'm not thinking that heavy of a load.....If I hit 4 drams I'll likely stop, but that is no wounding load in my book. Plenty of powder for anything I'll go after.
You are quite correct, Lieutenant Forsyth.
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
20/06/17 11:09 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
According to Baker, 4 to 5 drams - through and through an (Indian) elephant's head with hardened ball - 14 bore.
|
|
Heelerau
|
|
(.300 member)
|
|
12/09/17 07:10 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Quote:
General? My book says he was Lieutenant James Forsyth,M.A. - as of 1863. What happened after that, I do not know.
Your results will be interesting indeed.
In the days Forsyth's book was written, the fast twist guns with standard rifling did poorly, stripping, etc. Grooving as your rifle was done to prevent stripping.
Forsyth's concerns even with the belted ball in fast twist barrels, was they they were not accurate with the large charges normally used for tiger, buffalo and elephant.
He stated that their owners merely used the heavy charges anyways and put up with less accuracy, they still shot as well as smoothbores, which worked in close just fine.
I've shot several smooth bored 20 to 11 bore guns that will hold right about the 3" to 4" for 5 shots at 50 yards with tightly patched balls.
To prove Forsyth wrong about his twist criticisms & their unsuitability for large dangerous game, you would have to use the same loads as he did - 5 to 8 drams or at least 4 1/2 to 6 drams - as in 123gr. to 164gr., as well as using a powder like Swiss 1 1/2F or 2F.
I am fearful your old stock might not like that very much, but, the results would be MOST interesting.
Mate, I am interested in how you go with your two groove rifle. I frequent the British Military Forums and two groove Brunswicks are shot there with belted balls and not much success. The Brunswick was supposed to supersede the Baker in the British Army but it was not ver successful. I am currently working up loads for an English percussion sporting rifle with Forsyth style rifling, 1 turn in 100 inches, using 4 1/2 drams of Fg with a patched ball. Forsyth seemed to think that the round ball needed fairly minimal twist to stay on track when using massive powder charges thus avoiding the ball stripping. I have definitely found my old rifle likes the heavier charge. My rifle is 12 bore.(.72).
I see a number of sporting rifles were two grooved, even Jackob rifles were made. Those early English hunters in Africa often took 20 or more shots to bring down heavy game such as elephant, till the later really large bore rifles were made. Those blokes must have been pretty tough to stand the massive recoil, and brave dropping charging elephant at their feet !
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
12/09/17 10:09 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
The little Purdey 2 grooves, calibre .45 to .54 or so, were meant for patched ball. One of our locals (Vancouver Island) as a couple of those and they do shoot passably for hunting guns on small game, like deer.
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Im sure Samuel Bakers guns were 2 groove at least the 8 bore
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
So it took me some time but things came together beautifully yesterday morning. 90 grains of 2F Swiss sent a hardened belted ball through him length wise. The ball entering the right shoulder/neck and exited the left rear leg, massive damage.
|
|
tinker
|
|
(.416 member)
|
|
10/09/18 09:04 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Nice!
|
|
Huvius
|
|
(.416 member)
|
|
10/09/18 11:29 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
And to think there are hunters out there that think third season with a 300WM is the ultimate...
|
|
cordite
|
|
(.333 member)
|
|
11/09/18 12:15 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Now that is awesome. Great job! Actually hunting and harvesting an animal with a vintage rifle.
|
|
93x64mm
|
|
(.416 member)
|
|
11/09/18 06:09 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Well done bouldersmith!
Plenty for the freezer by the look of those.
|
|
Heelerau
|
|
(.300 member)
|
|
11/09/18 09:09 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
Ver satisfying to hunt successfully with such a lovely rifle. I have 12 bore Isaac Hollis, but no deer handy!!
|
|
DarylS
|
|
(.700 member)
|
|
12/09/18 05:31 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: 2 groove rifles
|
|
NICE Muley!!
That rifle is SUPER. It looks very much like my Brothers Joseph Lang 16Bore.
|
