| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/11 05:36 AM |
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Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Hi all. New here so i figured I'd start off by stirring up what is sure to be a debate.
What would you consider to be the minimum size round ball for buffalo? I have never been but have as a goal to take a buffalo and want to do it with a muzzle loader. I am considering going to Argentina for one of their Asiatics first. Followed by Australia. I am finishing up a .58 flinter and will be starting on a double rifle after that.
I'm very interested to hear what some experiences are with round balls on the big brutes.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/05/11 05:57 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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The 4-bore was very popular prior to the advent of the 450 Nitro Express.
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 20/05/11 07:27 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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No personal experience, but a .577 was considered a medium calibre round in BP days.
| Supercracker |
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| 20/05/11 07:37 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Yeah, I pretty much figured that.
.62 barrels are the largest caliber readily available without having to have 2 barrels custom made. Which, if I were going to do that, I would just go for the 12 bore.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 20/05/11 07:41 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Not sure what speed you get with a Round Ball but a 650gn out of a 577 Nitro for Black at about 1800 - 1900 fps hits buff hard.
I have seen them go down with one hit and not go down with multiple hits (not all good one's !!!)
Not sure on the hardness of your lead but I reckon if you angled the ball in through the ribs and into the heart lung area, it would put the animal down.
Not sure how your lead ball would go against the leg bone which is a very hard bone, hence my question above re the hardness of the lead.
I'd stay away from head shots (and the jaw) which side on will stop your bullet dead in it's tracks.
| AFRO408 |
| (.333 member) |
| 20/05/11 07:45 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Yeah but, supercracker is talking about ROUND BALL and the only way to get more weight / penetration, is to go bigger in diameter.
I would think that a .58 pure lead RB would be quite sufficient for Buff with good placement. You should be able to get 1400-1600 FPS from the Muzzle loader.
I have a .52cal cap & ball, that I made back in the early 80's, and my load is 85g 2f giving 1650 FPS. The pure lead ball weighs 200g and really penetrates well.
While I was typing this two more answers came in.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 20/05/11 07:59 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Quote:
Yeah, I pretty much figured that.
.62 barrels are the largest caliber readily available without having to have 2 barrels custom made. Which, if I were going to do that, I would just go for the 12 bore.
Pedersoli makes a double BP ML in .72 .
I believe I have seen a hunting report of it being used on Cape Buffalo.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 20/05/11 01:32 PM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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I don't think pure lead would be a good ball material.
Hardened wheel weight or at least a 10-1 tin alloy to toughen up the ball would be the least I'd do for buffalo.
That twelve bore pedersoli -- a couple guys here have set them up for big charges of black powder and tightly patched hard roundball. Lots of rifle for very little money~!
Cheers
Tinker
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/05/11 02:33 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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.575 ball is 286gr
.610 ball is 342gr
.715 ball is 550gr.
I can't find any hard data on velocities for large caliber with stout loads but I'm sure they could probably be gotten up at least into the high 1500s. Assuming my shoulder can take it. lol
A .58 double would be easier to handle and with a good thick barrel and/or chamber liner type breech plug could handle some serious powder charges. A .62 would be a little better but considerably heavier. With real strong loads and harder alloy balls you could cook up some good penetration. Especially at shorter ranges. (I only started shooting MLs after messing up my shoulder too badly to shoot a longbow anymore, so I still want to try to limit myself to near archery ranges.)
I have looked at the Ped .72 and have a Ped .50 double. They are nice rifles but aren't really regulated. My understanding is that they are aligned with a laser and that's it and you have about a 1 in 4 chance of a good regulation. My Kodiak .50 has about a foot of separation at 50yds, which is wholly unacceptable. And that's after a considerable amount of fiddling with loads. I would much rather get 2 match quality barrels and go through the drawn out process of joining and regulating them. There is an immense satisfaction to taking game with gear you made yourself.
I had also thought about getting a set of the Pedersoli .72 barrels and detaching and regulating them myself. But a set of barrels from them actually costs more than getting 2, .62 cal, match quality barrels made. So if it's actually less money for higher quality, why compromise?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/05/11 09:49 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Having a DR made for Africa? What a delightful quandry to be in.
We can look to what was used by the successful hunters - S. Baker in Africa and India, Lt. J. Forsyth in India and see what they suggested.
Indian game gave the hunter slightly smaller or less dangerous, dangerous game, wherein the Elephant is smaller than the African variety, Water buffalo instead of Cape buffalo - jury might be out on them, bear, although tiger might be less dangerous as they are usually singly hunted. hoWhatever the reason, we do find a normally smaller bore size being the norm or 'best' all round.
Note in India as in Africa, there is a difference in size between a stopping ball gun and a killing ball gun - rifle or smoothbore.
Even in India, the .577 calibre shoots too small a round ball for serious game shooting - bear and deer being about it's limit. The 280gr. round ball is just too light.
The problem with shooting slugs in double guns, is the 'other' bullet moving forward upon the discharge of the first - it then becomes an obstruction. Slugs did not become quite popular until the advent of ctgs., which held them back against recoil.
The question was about round balls. Forsyth maintained a 16 bore was about the lower limit, shooting a 1oz ball.
Baker maintained a 14 bore ball, if hardened, would shoot through both sides of an Elephant's head. Surely this would be enough for buffalo.
The problem comes from hardening balls. With the addition of tin, the alloys become harder, slightly, to about 10;1 being the hardest, and still quite maelable, however 10% tin greatly reduces the weight. Weight can be better maintained through the addition of antimony, as in old style Wheel Weights.
A straight WW ball of 14 or 12 bore needs no further hardening at it's peak of about 1,550fps. Further hardening as in water quenching, or oven hardening is not necessary wit them.
My only experience in this is the shoulder bones of a moose. Both of them are no match for either a 14 bore WW ball of 466gr. nor a 12 bore WW ball of 575gr. Either will smash both shoulders. The 12 bore ball will also usually exit.
I would rely on a 14 bore for all-round African shooting however if strickly having a buffalo rifle made up, it would be a 12. An 8 would not be out of line for buffalo, and is the smallest of the "smashers".
I own a .58 Kodiak which regulates to one sight, perfectly, but with what I consider to be only a NA hunting load of 110gr.- and a bare minimum for me in this area. Addition of any more powder separates the barrel's impacts vertically and makes them cross badly as well. It's normal 110gr. 2F max. load, (100gr. 2F minimum) is sufficient power and trajectory for hunting here, in N. America - deer, elk, moose, black bear, goats, sheep - will certainly kill a grizzly, but if hunting them I'd pack my 14 bore single, not the little pipsqueak .58. Mine is the only Kodiak I've seen that actually regulates with any projectile - out of only 4 rifles. Perhaps I did more testing/experimenting than others? The other rifles were more than 1 foot apart with any load - at only 50 yards. Of guns like that, Forsyth suggested smashing them or giving them to a friend.
Seems to me the barrels of about all Italian DB ML's are brazed, just like Belgium double smoothbores around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries.
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 26/07/11 12:12 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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As a point of interest and follow up to this thread. I have found a US barrel maker who will make pretty much anything up to and including a 4 bore. Oregon Barrel Works. I have not personally used their barrels yet but I find nothing but good reviews. I will be ordering a pair of 14 or 12 bore barrels from the later this year.
http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.c...at1Name=Barrels
PS: "The Gun Works" are the same people as OBW. They just don't have a separate site yet.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/07/11 01:11 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Sounds good. Les Bauska made up a pair of 14 bore barrels for a friend who was going to make up a DR. I lost touch with him long ago and never knew if he'd built that 'smasher'. (on NA game)
One thing about 12's over 14's - it takes a LOT more powder to get 1,500fps from them - over 200gr., whereas the 14 bore will do it with 6 drams. There is a difference in power and penetration - that's a given.
The Indian Elephant head penetration Baker was speaking of with a 14 bore ball, was driven by only 4 1/2 drams(123gr.) - but - was probably good C&H#6 powder - equivalent to about 5 or 6 drams of our GOEX - 135gr. to 165gr.
I used 165 for moose in my 14 bore, not because I thought they needed that power but just because that charge game me the trajectory (velocity) I was looking for - a 3" point blank to 130yards - to get that trajectory with a large bore ball, is splendid indeed. The larger bores cannot do this with any load you'd like to shoot from a normal 9 1/2 poiund or 10 pound hunting rifle.
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 26/07/11 01:30 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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I'm probably going to go with the 14. I will never hunt an elephant and while I do really want to go for Buff if I do it will likely only be a once or twice in my life thing. The majority of use this rifle will get will be going after rhino class boar at night. A 14 will be more than adequate for the biggest pig I'll ever run into. When night hunting being able to immediately put another ball into a fatally hit but currently only stunned pig is high up on my list. Tracking a wounded 300+lb boar through the swamp, at night is not high up on my list at all.
I've already started sketching this rifle out. I've decided to build it in the style of a mid 19th century German "Jaeger" rifle. Octagonal full tapered barrels, percussion, back action locks, horn trigger guard/grip, wooden patchbox, etc. While the English styled guns are beautiful, it's nice to have something different. I'm about 10% into a Double Barrel Flinter 12ga right now using a set of converted damascus barrels. The Double Jaeger is next on the list............right now.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/07/11 02:15 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good choice and good luck. Can't quite envision a double barreled Jaeger, but have at it anyway. (I keep thinking flint fullstock) 1/2 stocked back actioned percussion would certainly work.
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 26/07/11 03:15 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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I humbly present, Inspiration......
Like that. Except built by someone with orders of magnitude less skill and experience. lol
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/07/11 08:30 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Oh yeah - that's nice - for a change of pace. I think one should keep the lines quite English for the comb and heel so it mounts like a shotgun - sights all lined up. Go slow and try for fit often while shaping the butt stock. Will be nice.
To me, it appears the comb is perhaps 1/4" too high, and the heel 3/4" too low. The beauti of the design I note,is that is points like a shotgun, sights lined up. Of course, different physiques demand slightly different measurements. Have you handled the gun in the picture?
What wood?
The hammers are especially nicely carved - the dophin head(or whatever it is) was quite popular - on English guns too. They are nice indeed.
It shouldn't be too difficult to shape the fences as in the picture as there is usually a lot more metal than required.
Keep in mind, although these guns kick a bit, the actual pressures generated are quite low compared to a little .40, .45 ro .50 cal. RB rifle. I am certain that is why many larger bored guns have much thinner barrel steels in comparrison, than smaller bored guns. To get the pressure up over 10,000PSI in a 14 or 12 bore takes a LOT of powder - more than any normal man will shoot, yet most normal 50 and 100 yard loads breech that pressure by 50% in the small bore RB rifles & by up to 300% when shooting slugs.
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 27/07/11 11:33 PM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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No, I've not seen that gun in person. It's wayyy out of my price range I imagine. I just saved pictures of it for reference as I've done with dozens of other guns. But that one just caught my eye in particular as something special. Naturally, whatever layout I end up with will be arrived at after several pattern stocks are tried out.
I'm with you on the "Dolphin" too. Those are in fact supposed to be dolphins and it was a very popular design. But in what drunken state does that look anything at all like a dolphin?
I plan to have my shotgun project finished in time for Dove season in October. As soon as I do I'll be getting started on the double Jaeger. Maybe......just maybe, I can have it finished in time for 2012 season.
| Dphariss |
| (.300 member) |
| 07/01/12 09:02 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Someone used a pair of new made 8 bores in the past few years for Buff but I can't recall where I read of it.
12 bore is probably a minimum. 8 would be better.
We have to remember that the 19th century hunters had no backup and needed something with all the power that might be needed if things went bad.
Dan
| Supercracker |
| (.224 member) |
| 07/01/12 11:15 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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I don't think I'm up for an 8 Bore. At least not yet. I'll get to that neighborhood when I hit the lotto and decide to go after an elephant. lol
I got ahold of a set of 12 Bore blanks from Oregon Barrel Co. and am waiting to get them profiled.
My biggest issue right now is how I will bring the guns with me into Australia. It just occured to me yesterday that none of my MLs have serial numbers, being either very old originals or guns I built. Not sure what I'm going to do with regards to the paperwork.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 07/01/12 11:42 AM |
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Re: Black Powder PRB for Buff
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Must be someone here who's taken guns to Australia could give some advice.
The Aussie Government probably doesn't have the cavalier attitude towards muzzleloaders than the US has. Even here, flintlocks are pretty much non-guns. Even people barred from owning firearms can own and hunt with flintlocks here and no federal licence is required.
I don't think I'd be too concerned about going after one of the Aussie bulls with a 14 bore double - 10 bore, of course, would be better, shooting a .750" or slighlty larger ball of about 600gr.+ in WW alloy, 635gr.+ in pure lead. The alloy'd ball would be the one to use on buff, though, no matter what bore size.