(.300 member)

10/03/18 08:33 AM

Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Well, sometimes chicken and sometimes feathers. See the image of the lot that I purchased from the last Rock Island Auction. The general description was pasted below. I felt like it was purposely vague and misleading. When I called them, they were nice and wanted to know what kind of compensation I was looking for. I told them I was looking for accurate descriptions on items so I could make an informed decision. I don't know if they would refund any money or not, that was not the issue. The problem was with the "John Dickson and Son" Mauser. Their appraiser is more knowledgeable than I. However, it had a John Dickson and Son marked barrel that was screwed into a WWII surplus action - so how could it be "custom built before WWII". The marking in question is beautifully done with the address and is located under the wood line and almost on the bottom - almost - just where it fell when the barrel was re-used. None of the parts match. It does have a small Otto Bock marking on the stock. Problem is that it does not have any German or English proof marks. This rifle was assembled in the US from parts which is obvious to any person who is even remotely interested in Mausers, much less their appraiser who has likely looked at thousands. Are they exempt from any blame because the Consignor note says it was custom made before WWII? If the note said it belonged to Adolf Hitler himself and they knew it was untrue, should they say that? Anyway, I felt cheated by the experience. I have had some favorable experiences in the past which are off-set completely by this one. I bear part of the responsibility for not making them send me a better photo of the left side - one that I could enlarge for I would have seen the MOD 98 on the left receiver rail. Lesson learned.

John Dickson & Son Marked Mauser Model 98 Sporting Rifle
Otto Bock marked stock. Consignor notes: Custom built just before WWII.

(.470 member)

10/03/18 02:52 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

the rifle itelf looks great but does it have a rear sight?

(.300 member)

11/03/18 03:13 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

There is no provision for a rear sight. The action is drilled and tapped for a one piece base. The hole spacing on a Leupold base does not work. I am looking for a Redfield one piece to try.
I am playing with making some brass to fire form into 6.5 X 61 Mauser - a Brenneke round that never really caught on. So far this is the process to form a case:

1. Run 270 Win case through a .270 FL size die with the expander ball removed.
2. run case into 7 X 57 die until shoulder is set back to 6.5 X 61 length.
3. Trim case a little longer than final length (will shorten when formed)
4. Anneal case neck/shoulder.
5. Run case part of the way into 6.5 Rem Mag size die and use the false shoulder formed to headspace against - the 6.5 die only neck sizes the case.
6. Fireform with Bullseye and Cream of Wheat.

Without investing in a set of dies, is there a better way to form cases?

(.416 member)

11/03/18 04:19 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

What is the rate of rifling twist?

(.416 member)

11/03/18 04:22 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Also - those cases will likely need neck reaming and turning once you get them formed, but your process doesn't sound bad.

Are you going to get on it this weekend?

(.416 member)

11/03/18 04:25 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Oh - look here...

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=55828

Someone discussing this rifle from 2014

(.700 member)

11/03/18 04:34 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Good link, John.

"The Grasset catalogs mentions a MV of 1000 m/s (3280.83 fps) and ME 400 kgm (881.84 ft·lb) but the closest ballistic performance for the 6.5 x 61 Mauser published by DWM in 1930 is MV 945 m/s (3100.39 fps) and ME 351 kgm (773.82 ft·lb) with 3,5 g (54 grs) of R. 2 powder and 7.7 g (118.82 grs) bullet."

Might be the same as the 6.5x68's 12" twist.

(.416 member)

11/03/18 04:39 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

I'd be wishing for a fast twist!
1:8 would be great for the modern high-BC 140gr hunting bullets.

But yes, as I look elsewhere for information on this cartridge I see 257 Hyper Express and other info coming up.

(.300 member)

11/03/18 05:09 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Interesting that you found this rifle on the internet from years past.......... I checked the twist rate and I got 1 turn in 7.5 inches. I expected a 1 in 9".

By the way, John Dickson and Son never retailed a 6.5X61 but they did sell 6.5X54s.
John

(.416 member)

11/03/18 05:35 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Have you cast the chamber?
Can you fire form a case today?
I'm here watching!

I'd be very happy with that fast twist.
Today's long, high-BC, heavy 6.5 hunting bullets are very very nice.

Form some brass, John!
Please let's see what you have there.

(.416 member)

11/03/18 05:45 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

I saw your comment on scope mount holes, but looking at the picture...

You say the barrel marking is under the wood - and there's no provision for a rear sight - and the stock does not look cut for a receiver sight - and that barrel band looks to be the provision for the forward stock screw/sling swivel...

How is the front sight attached?

(.300 member)

11/03/18 06:26 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Front sight is sweated on. There is no cut for a receiver sight. Probably had a barrel band rear sight originally as there are no holes in the barrel. There seems to be some type of a sleeve arrangement with a barrel stub from a military rifle where it comes out of the receiver that I do not understand. Nor did the FFL dealer who is a fair gunsmith. I formed a case and it measures out to be a 6.5X61 as best I can tell. It did not form as completely as I would have liked because my forming load was a little too mild.

(.416 member)

11/03/18 07:13 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

From Municion

(.416 member)

11/03/18 07:18 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

I'd be stuffing powder and a bullet in there and finishing the job

Depending on how much money you have into it - I'd say you might have a really fun hunting rifle there.

What's the comment on the barrel?
There's a spacer..?

(.416 member)

11/03/18 08:11 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Reading the description, I don’t see that they misrepresented the rifle. They didn’t exactly paint a pretty picture...
Look in the stock for any Mauser marks for a Model S.
The stock looks pretty spot on for an Oberndorf S

(.400 member)

11/03/18 09:37 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

A chap that I know bought a little Mauser in 7x57 with exactly the same type of barrel where there was no provision for a rear sight and the breech end of the barrel looked exactly the same as yours with that step. It is like as if the original barrel was shot out but to keep the proof marks so to avoid reproofing, they bored out the original barrel and turned down another barrel complete with chamber and sweated it in. I realise that you said your rifle has no proof marks but maybe have a look into the action at the back of the barrel and see of there is a faint joint line.

The rifle looks very nice otherwise in what seems like an interesting cartridge. With that twist rate it would be ideal for 160 grain bullets. Personally if the rifle is in good condition and it shoots alright, I would persist and fit some rear sights and sort out some scope bases.

Waidmannsheil.

(.470 member)

11/03/18 03:25 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

iirc, 1935 DWM catalog

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post276546

(.400 member)

11/03/18 09:02 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Here's a 1935 DWM chart from the '39 Stoeger:

(.375 member)

12/03/18 10:15 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Is the 6.5x61 Mauser close enough to the 256 Newton (6.5x62) that you can use trimmed Newton brass, Newton loading dies, and loading data?

I have a 256 Newton that appears to have the same ballistics. It has a 1/10 twist barrel so it is really designed for 120 to 129 gr bullets. It would be nice if Newton had used a faster twist barrel but I believe he was looking for speed which a lighter bullet provided.

(.416 member)

12/03/18 10:46 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

6.5x61 from the Municion site

256 Newton from the Municion site

(.300 member)

12/03/18 10:54 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Overall length of the 6.5X61 is 2.40 - the 6.5X06 is 2.49. Case capacity is 3 grains of water more than the 6.5X06. Since loading data for the 6.5X06 is easily found. It should work for the 6.5X61 Mauser.

John

(.416 member)

12/03/18 10:54 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Without the frustration and/or expense of the our friend TexasJohn from the process he took to get here, I'm excited about his rifle.

If the barrel is from a Dickson and Son rifle, and if they used a 6.5x54 or 6.5x53r barrel, the twist would have been in the neighborhood of 1:7.8 or so. Close to John's 7.5 twist measurement. Groove diameter might be big, but I'd be trying a modern high-BC heavy hybrid in there right away.

Might not be exactly what he was hoping for, but it might just be a really neat hunting rifle after all!

(.416 member)

12/03/18 10:56 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Quote:

Overall length of the 6.5X61 is 2.40 - the 6.5X06 is 2.49. Case capacity is 3 grains of water more than the 6.5X06. Since loading data for the 6.5X06 is easily found. It should work for the 6.5X61 Mauser.

John

I was thinking the same thing last night.
2800fpsMV with 140s should be easy

(.300 member)

12/03/18 11:24 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

I made up 10 rounds to fire form - maybe next weekend. Found some 150 grain cast bullets I had stuck in the junk box and loaded them up to about 1500 fps. Should form cases well enough. I checked the bore and it is tight. The rifle should shoot. I have to get a scope rigged up on it before I can sight it in. I owned a 6.5X06 one time and killed two Mule Deer bucks with it before I traded it to a friend who still owns it.

John

(.416 member)

12/03/18 08:24 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

There's a very nice US made striker mounted aperture sight.

See here.

(.300 member)

08/04/18 03:06 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

This just keeps getting worse. After getting a scope based fitted and fireforming a few cases, I discovered that this rifle suffers from bolt set-back. Most likely due to the war-time action not being properly heat treated and remaining too soft. Since the barrel is a sleeved hybrid - none of which was stated in the auction description - only the stock, bolt and bottom metal are salvageable. Pretty expensive parts. I have a pre-war Oberndorf action that I could get barreled and drop in the stock.........don't really have the heart to pursue the project now. Anyone need a nice factory Mauser "S" stock?

John

(.416 member)

08/04/18 03:39 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Sorry to hear this.
I had high hopes for you on this rifle.

Cheers
Tinker

(.375 member)

09/04/18 11:59 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Maybe......how much for your S stock? That would be a nice stock to have the pattern for. I have a few patterns I have made for bolt guns and a Kurz model B stock pattern taken from an original Oberndorf rifle. Most of my patterns are for single shot rifles. I do have a type A I am planning to copy in the next few days(Thanks Matt!) for myself and a the client. Having a nice variety of pattern stocks on hand would not be a bad thing.

(.300 member)

10/04/18 01:31 AM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Please share your duplicated Type A stock when you finished.

(.300 member)

10/04/18 06:49 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

Drop a line to Dicksons - they have all the records and should be able to give you the history on this. But absense of British or German proof marks suggest it may have been put together later from bits and pieces.

https://www.john-dickson.com

(.416 member)

16/04/18 01:06 PM

Re: Got Hosed by Rock Island Auction

I sure hope that I came out on top of my latest buy from Rock Island.
I “won” the Fraser 7x57 in the auction yesterday.
Wish me luck...

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