| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 25/02/14 12:19 PM |
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What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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I've bought a rifle that really has me wondering, it is a large ring, true short action. Unfortunately drilled and tapped, but that's life and I can fix that.
Specs, close as tape measure and eye will allow, not at home. The markings look odd to me in their cut / stamp, but I've never owned a 1901 either:
Receiver OAL: 8 1/8"
Between Screws: 7 5/16"
Mag Follower: 2 9/16"
Receiver Ring: 1.40"
Ring markings, pretty standard except the date, and only marking so far found but haven't pulled it from the stock:
WAFFENFABRIK
MAUSER
OBERNDORF A/N
1901
I'm perplexed by the extremely early date, and the true short action combination, and the large ring. I know one large ring short action has been found and proven to be original, I'm not going to count on being that lucky just yet. I need education but had thought the short actions were 1915 and later, coinciding with the .250 Savage etc. So far, I cannot find any signs of weld, it has of course been case hardened in recent times. Barrel maker was of Innsbruck, Austria, originally it was chambered in 6.5x57 (now 7x57, though has to be very short seated to fit the mag length), and I believe the barrel was a take off from another rifle of course as it seems to be later manufacture and the chambering doesn't fit the action length of course.
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 25/02/14 12:25 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Should note, the customizations are no great mystery, lots of them, just after action info.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/02/14 08:54 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Have a look into Jon Speed's "Mauser - Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles", pages 96 -99, 115, 434. The first K action he recorded is dated 1900. The K actions were first made for Mauser's own short cartridges 6.5x54 and 8x51. The .250-3000 Savage came much later, made for export to the USA. But large ring K actions are indeed super rare.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/02/14 09:03 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Obviously this rifle was rechambered from 6.5x54 to 6.5x57 in 1942, indicated by the 3rd Reich Ferlach reproof, eagle/I, Ferlach "shield", proofdate 542 = May 1942.
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 26/02/14 04:01 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Thanks very much, I've pulled the receiver from the stock and it is radiused after the recoil lug, not flat as standard, have sent kuduae a photo which I imagine he is sharing with some knowledgeable people. I've gone over it with a loupe and can find zero indications of weld in the receiver.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 26/02/14 05:01 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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some informations about Peterlongo/Mahrholdt in Innsbruck
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20autrichienne/ancien%20artisan/a%20peterlongo%20gb.htm
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 26/02/14 06:04 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Thanks lancaster, very useful information.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 26/02/14 11:42 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Nearly all the short Mauser K actions are radiused behind the recoil lug, some have the small flat too. But, nearly all are small ring actions. The only other known large ring K action, serial Nr. 5340, has the flat behind the recoil lug common with the larger actions. That action is dated 1902, while this one is 1901.
As you wrote, it is marked "V1". This may be a Mauser factory toolroom number. Several other one of a kind Mauser actions are known with such low, V-prefix serial numbers. "V" most likely stands for "Versuch" = test or experiment. So it may well be a toolroom prototype action.
Richard Mahrholdt then was a very influential gun authority besides being a "name" gunmaker and -retailer. He was the original author of the "Waffenlexikon" = gun encyclopedia, a book that was for decades and at least 7 editions "the bible" for German speaking sporting gun enthusiasts. So a Mauser toolroom prototype may well have ended up in his Mahrholdt - Peterlongo shop.
It would be interesting to know about any marks, numbers or letters, under the barrel. Such marks may show if the half - octagonal, ribbed barrel is a Mauser original in 6.5x54, only rechambered to 6.5x57, or if it was added later.
It's a pity that the action was so much reworked, receiver bridge reshaped, tapped and drilled, bolt sleeve and safety altered.
The colour case hardening is certainly not original. It looks a lot like "Turnbull" to me.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/03/14 04:19 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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In an email Ardent told me the barrel being marked "7.57" underneath. The "7.57" seems to be missing a digit or two and it shows the barrel is not of Mauser origin, but Austrian. You can bore out a barrel from 6.5mm to 7mm, but you cannot "bore in" it the other way. I suspect a "6," is missing or was removed while installing and finishing the barrel. "6,7.57" would be a common designation of a Ferlach barrelmaker. Remember, many European cartridges got their first number from the bore/land diameter, not the barrel/groove one. The bullets of many, but not all, "6.5 mm" cartridges are .264" = 6.7 mm actually, just as "7mm" .284" are 7.2 mm actually. Other than the Germans, the Austrians sometimes used the real bullet diameter in the cartridge designation. This leads to confusion sometimes. F.I. I have a package of old Austrian 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges labeled and headstamped "6,7x54 M-S". So I think the 6.5x57 barrel now on the action is of Austrian, Ferlach?, make and was installed and proofed in 1942 on the behalf of R.Mahrholdt. The rifle was not merely rechambered as I thought before, but rebarreled.
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 06/03/14 03:36 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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The 7•57 in this case under the chamber would have been added with the rebore to 7mm, seems there was some confusion kuduae as it is today a 7x57. I suspect your are dead on in that it was a 6.5x54, rechambered to 6.5x57 in 1942 as you've pointed out by the reproofs. Then in North America much later rebored to 7mm and chambered to 7x57, as there is no reproof for that (hence my suspicion of North America, and there are other factors pointing to the customization being North American and it was found here). Today it is a 7x57 that requires very short seating of the bullets due to the short action mag length. Kuduae was very kind to bring this to the attention of Jon Speed and it seems he found it very interesting, not to mention Kuduae's own invaluable help and knowledge in figuring out what we have here. I thank you for the emails and assistance Kuduae.
While not cheap, I'm very pleased with this purchase, as it appears to be only the second large ring Kurz known, predating the only other known by one year. It is a pitty with the customizations, but overall a beautiful rifle I feel lucky to have.
Cheers and thanks for all the help!
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/03/14 07:03 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Quote:
Today it is a 7x57 that requires very short seating of the bullets due to the short action mag length.
SAKO has manufactured very short 5,1 gram bullets, both fmj and blypoint. These bullet were mainly made to 7x33 SAKO but I use them with my 7x53R wilcat Mosin.
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 06/03/14 10:26 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Interesting, and good to know thank you.
| paradox_ |
| (.375 member) |
| 06/03/14 03:43 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Yes, it appears to be a very rare large ring K action, or at least what is left of a K action.
A rare thing , even in its molested state.
Thank you for sharing it with us
Best
Eric
| Ash |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/03/14 04:38 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Molested or not, its gorgeous (something no one here is disagreeing with.).
Is 6.5x54 the same as the mannlicher cartridge?
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 07/03/14 05:01 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Why thank you, I think I'll be fitting claw mounts to it only because the drill and tap is already done, and the clip guide already removed. I can do a set of custom claw mount bases to use the current holes, and not alter the receiver at all. Seems the best solution at present.
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/03/14 07:59 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Quote:6,5x54 Mauser is different ammo than 6,5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer.
Is 6.5x54 the same as the mannlicher cartridge?
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/03/14 08:39 PM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Quote:Quote:6,5x54 Mauser is different ammo than 6,5x54 Mannlicher Schönauer.
Is 6.5x54 the same as the mannlicher cartridge?
The 6.5x54 M-Sch and 6.5x53R Mannlicher cases are built on a special 11.48 mm = .452" base, while the 6.5x54 K Mauser has the standard 11.70 mm = .470" base of the 8x57.
Left to right ( all old factory loads): 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, 2x 6.5x54 K Mauser, 6.5x53 R Mannlicher aka .256 Gibbs rimmed.
| Ardent |
| (.275 member) |
| 08/03/14 07:07 AM |
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Re: What do I have here? 1901 Large Ring, Short (true short) act
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Looks like a neat little cartridge, wish it still was 6.5x54. Though for my purposes, 7x57 works just swell, already use and load for it extensively, so I'll take that as a silver lining.