| mckinney |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/10/09 07:19 AM |
Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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According to Jon Speed's book, there were 2 pre-World War I Mauser distributors in South America:
Federico Maurer (Santiago)
Bellingrodt & Meyer (Rio de Janiero)
By 1938, the network had expanded to include Lima, Buenos Aires, Guayaquil, Sao Paolo, La Paz, and Montevideo among others.
There must have been a fair number of Mauser sporters shipped to these dealers, as well as all those Winchester 54's and 70's in 7.65 mm and 9x57 that one is always hearing about. I would think that, unlike guns shipped to Germany and elsewhere in Continental Europe, many of these guns must have survived.
Does anyone have any idea about the numbers of rifles shipped to S. America and how to go about looking for them now? I have searched in vain for auction houses in South America and haven't had much more luck in finding dealers.
To me it is a fascinating subject.
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/10/09 09:29 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Just a guess but I don't think very many Oberndorf sporters found their way to South America. They had plenty of inexpensive military Mausers to use or convert for sporting purposes.
| mckinney |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/10/09 10:43 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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sounds plausible, but there must be some explanation for the Mauser dealer network there, and I think there must have been a demand for high quality sporting rifles. We know that Winchester, Remington and others made rifles in 7.65 caliber for S. American delivery (although I haven't seen any numbers on that either - just mention of it in the various reference books).
My guess is that a fair number of rifles were imported - perhaps 5% of total production. Since the place has been politically turbulent, many of the guns may have been confiscated, destroyed, or seized by various militaries over the years.
I will continue to follow up on this and post anything I find. In the meantime, if anyone can name a S. American firearms auction house, that would be a good start.
| ChrisPer |
| (.300 member) |
| 01/10/09 12:02 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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You might do well to seek an understanding of the networks there. The US gun market works totally different to other countries. I suggest you may find that there are a substantial number of guys in South America who are into fine gear, but may be catered for by dealers with obscure shopfronts and 'by appointment' opening times.
Start by asking the members here and other major forums who have South American locations where THEY would look.
If you are able, perhaps you could also help people out with parts or books that are easy to get in the US but hard to find in their countries. Network building can be a two-way street.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 01/10/09 11:56 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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South America is a big place...a continent in fact, and I suspect the various countries had markedly different approaches to such imports.
I'm not aware of any significant customizing industry of milsurps and in fact believe that one of the common threads of gun law that exist on the continent is the ban on "military" guns and calibers for sporting use. Seems to be a Latin commonality. I'd be very interested to read of a custom gunmaking industry that used milsurp rifles. I hope someone from LA can weigh in.
Application of the law seems to be somewhat arbitrary in some quarters, too... I remember visiting my Uncle in Ecuador when they confiscated his Savage Model 24 combination gun; it was in a "military" caliber you see. The .30-30 was a ".30", and thus, military...
At any rate, this is a very interesting topic. I believe we will find some countries had/have significant hunting traditions, but overall, the use of sporting RIFLES is a drop in the bucket of that existing in the USA for example. And we also need to remember that just because a country has an "importer" or "distributor" doesn't mean they brought in many {or even any} guns. I suspect few Original Mausers were actually brought in to Latin America. For one thing, there is not a large variety of rifle-compatible game to be shot.
If I had to make a wild guess, I'd guess that the guns brought in were purchased by well-heeled types who wanted them for use in Africa or Asia, much less so in the country of their own residence.
| Carpetsahib |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/10/09 12:26 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Quote:That is actually technically correct. There have been some US military units equipped with .30-30s, as well as some foreign militaries.
Application of the law seems to be somewhat arbitrary in some quarters, too... I remember visiting my Uncle in Ecuador when they confiscated his Savage Model 24 combination gun; it was in a "military" caliber you see. The .30-30 was a ".30", and thus, military...
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 02/10/09 02:25 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Quote:
Quote:That is actually technically correct. There have been some US military units equipped with .30-30s, as well as some foreign militaries.
Application of the law seems to be somewhat arbitrary in some quarters, too... I remember visiting my Uncle in Ecuador when they confiscated his Savage Model 24 combination gun; it was in a "military" caliber you see. The .30-30 was a ".30", and thus, military...
Carpet; it is hard to find a cartridge that has not been used at some time by some military or paramilitary force somewhere.
Which is, of course, what makes this type of law so odious and so prone to subjective and/or "technically correct" interpretation...
There, at that time, anything ".30" was banned.
| pjaln |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/10/09 10:32 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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i have at least 60 tenants in boston that rent from me 99% are from latin america ,,judging from what i see i doubt if there are any high grade guns down there.. but now that you mention it i will ask ...paul
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 12/01/10 07:04 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Hi, I do live in South America ( Argentina ) and yes there are a few very intresting original Oberndorf Mausers arround, and best of all my Father has one in caliber 9 x 63 ( yes thats correct not 9.3x62 but 9 x 63 ) in Mauser Type B configuration with half round half octagon fully ribbed barrel and round pistol grip stock with cheekpiece and oval reinforcements on both sides of the stock, I´post some picutres if you wish ( I have to figure out first how to post them ).
Best regards fron down South.-
Ernesto.
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 12/01/10 07:51 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Ernesto,
Your post has me right behind you requesting pictures of your father's rifle.
As the official pesterer for pictures of fine guns, please take my request seriously. Like a beautiful girlfriend whom you may want to show off, a beautiful gun is also meant to be shown off especially on a forum full of fine gun afficionados. 
Good hunting and thanks in advance for the pictures!
| mckinney |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/01/10 11:12 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Jackel - thanks for your post. Finally something from S. America! I am glad to hear there are some Oberndorf Mausers around as I was pretty sure there had to be. Can you recommend any dealers? The only one I have been able to find is:
http://www.tirito.com.ar
They have a few interesting pieces, but no treasure trove of Mausers unfortunately. They do however have a well used Type S in 7.65 x 54 (see page 4 of the long guns section).
I think I might have better luck if I could speak Spanish!
Cheers
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 12/01/10 07:12 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Quote:
Quote:That is actually technically correct. There have been some US military units equipped with .30-30s, as well as some foreign militaries.
Application of the law seems to be somewhat arbitrary in some quarters, too... I remember visiting my Uncle in Ecuador when they confiscated his Savage Model 24 combination gun; it was in a "military" caliber you see. The .30-30 was a ".30", and thus, military...
the french use the Winchester 92(?)in 30-30 for non front line troops in WW 1, side note of history.
in a real war everything making bumm is used. we know that some french 1866 chassepot needle rifle's captured in the war 1870/71 and after this reworked as carbines for the 11,2x60R mauser cartridge also see limited front line service with german tropps in WW1.
obsolete medium bore rifles are my special interest, please post so much as possible about your father's 9x63 mauser, yes I remember this. between the wars many south american countrys had have a very strong economy compared with the rest of the world.
there was a special market in south america for german guns, another member from argentina (beleg2) mention once a M 88 sporter in 7,65x53.
the first of till now four rifles in 11,2x60R I was able to locate years ago was in south america.
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/01/10 12:27 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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MCKINNEY, I now Tirito personally he is always looking for rare and obsolete firearms, specialy rifles, the problem here in Argentina is that the majority of fine rifles that came to the country are in private collections of wealthy citizens ho ussually are not very open to show them and many of these guns are not registered so people who own them ussually keep it to themselwes, But there is another fellow who deals in fine rifles privetly, if you are intrested please send me a PM.
There is also a gun shop called La Veneziana they use to have Rigbys and Hollands ( bolt actioned and doubles ) also a couple of Mannlicher Schönnauers ( they dont have a web page ) but again if this is usefull let mi now and Ill get the adress and phone number.
best regards.
Ernesto.
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/01/10 01:00 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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LANCASTER, you are right from the end of WW2 to the end of the 70s we used to have a strong economy and an almost first world country but the leftiest goverments that took over in the 80s left us with a 4 world (IF SUCH ATHING EXISTS)country regarding economy and corruption ( sorry I now these is not the place to post this) so back to te rifle, It was build arround 1904/1905 according to the serial number ( 8153 ) taken from Jon Speeds Book, My Father traded it for a 6.5x55 Mauser he had a the time, believing it was in caliber 9.3 x 62 ( the registration documents stated it so )he also brought 25 reloaded rounds( RWS brass) with the rifle and put everything away in a closet( including a period correct 5x VOIGTLÄNDER telescope with original see trough windage adjustable claw mounts and number 1 reticle ).
Some years ago I got the rifle out of retirement and shot the 25 rounds without a hitch, beeing left without ammo, I send to do some reloads in 9.3x62, BIG SURPRISE as a tried to close the bolt on one of these rounds, of course it wouldnt, so back to the fellow who did te reloads, we measured the original brass, and chamber and barrel, and thats when we discovered that the rifle was in fact 9x63 caliber, so using 35 Weehlen reloading dies, and 250 grain soft points at arround 2100fps I took 2 javelina on december 2008 on my fathers farm ( I send some photos to MEHULKAMDAR since I dont now how to post them ).
Regarding the rifle it bears 2 serial numbers and it appears to have been built by Heym ( comparing it with photos from Jon Speeds Book ¡again! ), it has a Krupp SPEZIALLAUFSTAHL barrel 60 centimeters long, front sling swiwel is soldered on with a small base halfway down the barrel, wich as I wrote above is half round half octagon with a full lenght rib, it has light engraving on the action and magazine floor plate wich is lever activated, it also has double triggers the rear one is a set trigger with regulating screw between them, rear sight is 1 standing 1 folding with u notch, front sight is a brass tipped bead, it has small gas ports on the bolt as depicted in Speeds Book page 123 image 211 the bottom bolt, front claw mount base is dovetailed into front action ring wich is stippled, rear claw mount is bolted to rear bridge of action wich has thumb cutout and stripper clip guides.
As soon as I get home Ill send pictures to MEHULKAMDAR so he can post them.
Best regards.
Ernesto.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 13/01/10 08:20 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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it look we are highjacking this post now, its the first 9x63 I have ever heard. this cartridge is for the 9x57 what the 7x64 is for the 7x57.
this is from a 1926 Ernst Steigleder catalog, the cartridge was never realy popular and is allmost forgoten now
it was shooting the same 16 gramm bullet as in the 9x57 but with 780 m/sec instead of the 720 m/sec.
there is also a rimmed version in the list but it's maybe so rare like the 9,3x65R Brennecke
good that you reload- most clever hunter's would recommand to rebore the rifle for the 9,3x63. what a shame!
I hope to see the pics from your rifle
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 13/01/10 08:22 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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ops, I mean the 9,3x62, a 9,3x63 also exist but its rare like your 9x63
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/01/10 11:31 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Good to see the cartdrige in a catalog (first time) is there any chance that you post a bigger picture of that catalogs page please, and no Im not going to rebore the rifle, I am going to keep just like it is now and enjoy shooting and hunting with as much as I can.
I do have a 9.3x62 but that is another story, its a CZ 550 medium with hogs back stock and open sights ( with time and money Im going to tray to make look like the pre war Mauser model A rifles as much as possible).
Best regards.
Ernesto.
I send a lot of pictures to Mehul Kamdar yesterday so he can post them here.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 14/01/10 06:12 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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mehul is in vacation it seems
here is the teutonic masterpiece in 9x63
do you have the scope? there are allways old scope's with claw mounts on egun. if you wish we could find one that can be make fit your rifle.
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 14/01/10 07:15 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Yes I do have the original scope that came with the rifle, its a VOIGTLÄNDER 5x with number 1 reticle, it has see trough, windage adjustable rings ( its quick detachable also ), Thank you for posting the pictures, as soon as I take pictures of the scope Ill send them to you so you can post them here too.
Best regards.
Ernesto.
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 15/01/10 06:16 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Ernesto,
My Congratulations on such a beautiful rifle, thanks to you for posting it, and my apologies for not having checked my mail for a couple of days. I must thank Lancaster for posting the pics here as well.
This is a very beautiful rifle, and you are both lucky and a man of fine taste for keeping her. Just a question - is the x63 case derived from the 30-06? After all, IIRC, some aspects of the Springfield design were licensed from Mauser and the US government did pay the Germans a license fee until WW-1. That is why I am wondering . . .
Thanks again and good hunting!
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 15/01/10 07:32 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Mehul, I have to thank you for posting such beatiful pictures of fine rifles (Dons rifles in particular ), I dont know if the case of the 9x63 derivates from that of the 30-06 Springfield, there where so many rare cartdridges floating arround in Germany at the time, anyway the fellow who did the reloads used 30-06 brass and 250 grain soft points for 35 Wheelen, and reloading dies for the same caliber, the rifle prints 3 shots in 4 centimeters at 100 meters distance with open sights.
I havent tested it with the scope yet, but I dont think I am going to do any better.
According to the Ernst Steigleder catalogs page posted by Lancaster above, the original loads where 246 grain hollow points, flat points, round nose and solids at arround 2559 feet per second ( nothing to sneer at!! )and another with 183 grain semi jacketed spitzer bullet at arround 2624 feet per second, but as a precaution the reloads I am using travel at arround 2100-2200 fps.
Thank you again.
Best regards.
Ernesto.
Just a question I got from a friend a peep rear sight that is a complete arrangment with ejector box and is click adjustable for vindage and elevation with target knobs (it is not a Lyman ) ( it works with Mauser 98 patern rifles ) I also have the front sight wich is a banded globe with interchangeable front sights, Would it be OK to send you some pictures so you can post them and see if anybody knows in wich type of configuration of Mauser rifle did they belong ?
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 15/01/10 07:37 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Ernesto,
Please send the pictures to kamdarmehul@gmail and I shall post them rightaway.
3 shots in 4cm at 100 meters with open sights is fantastic accuracy for your rifle and it is a tribute to how beautifully the old guns were made. One more fantastic pluspoint to owning a rare and beautiful treasure!
Thank you very much for your very interesting posts and I shall wait for your e-mail with the pictures.
Good hunting!
| tophet1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/01/10 09:41 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Ernesto,
Thank you for your insight into Argentinian gun dealings. I have always known Argentina as being more european than europe and I would not be surprised to find many fine firearms in private hands. I will enjoy visiting there one day.
Cheers
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 15/01/10 11:20 AM |
Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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tOPHET1 If you come to Argentina,please let me know I would be more than pleased to buy you a couple of Beers an talk about ancient rifles and obsolete cartdriges.
Cheers.
Ernesto.
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 15/01/10 11:23 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Than you Mehul, Im going to take pictures right now so i can send them to you asap.
Ernesto.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 15/01/10 08:51 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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I was looking in other old catalogs but find the 9x63 only in the steigleder. Ernst(ernesto for his south american friends)Steigleder had have his shop in the middle of berlin to being near of his gentleman customer's. he chamber rifle#s for a lot of unusual caliber's. also for the swedish 9,3x57 which is very rare in old german catalogs. I think that he was seeing a lot of foreign visitor's in his shop who came to berlin.
if the german 62-63 mm case have something to do with the US military round? it all starts with the 8x57I and IR and there was a lot of wildcating in this time. the 9,3x74R from 1904 is also a 8x57IR basic round. there are 8x75 and 8x75S cartridges. possible that they look on the 30 06 but not nessesary.
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 16/01/10 07:16 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Lancaster ubtil you posted that Steigleder catalog page the only other reference of this cartdrige I found is in the book Cartridges of the World ( cant remember the page ), It is described as 9x63 MILLER & GREISS. Other descriptions i found are 9x63 30degrees imporved, 9x63 Mauser. And at www.ch4d.com they have reloadin dies for all of the above.
Best regards
Ernesto.
| beleg2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 19/01/10 11:58 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Hi Ernesto!
You can find Dixon book "European Sporting Cartridges" at the A.A.C.A.M..
There you can find two rimless 9x63mm cartridges:
9x63mm Miller & Greiss
9x63mm Mauser or M38 , circa 1906-Hessmer and 1910-Mauser (basado en el 8x57mm).
Hope this helps.
Martin
| JACKEL |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/01/10 12:42 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Thank you Martin, muchas gracias por su PM y por lo de la AACAM, en cuanto me haga de unas horas libres me doy una vuelta y consulto el libro al que usted hace referencia.
Un placer contactarme con usted.
Cordiales saludos.
Ernesto.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/02/10 05:58 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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The 9x63 predates both the Steigleder catalog and the .35 Whelen by some years, it is even older than the 63mm case length of the .30-06! The cartridge was also named the 9x63 Florstedt , a widely publicized cartridge before WWI. An original cartridge I have seen had a longer neck than the 9.3x62, about like the 35 Whelen. A few years ago at a shooting range I met a man who happily sighted in his inherited Miller & Greiss 9x63 98 Mauser sporter with Remington .35 Whelen factory loads, his cases did not look unusually distorted. The cartridge/load was named for Alexander Florstedt,see photo, an early-1900s gentleman hunter and scribe, who hunted the Carpathian and Alpine mountains as well as those of Asia. The Carpathes as well as large parts of Poland and Ukraine were then part of the Austro- Hungarian empire.
In his book "Jagen in den Hochgebirgen Asiens und Siebenbuergens" he writes: "The 9x63 was first special order loaded for me by RWS with 3.5g = 54grs of powder and a light 23mm long bullet several years before the war/WW1. It was the best high-mountain-game cartridge of those days." Internal evidence in his writings points to 1903, when he got his rifle from Miller&Greiss in Munich. He does not give bullet weight or ballistics, but an contemporary RWS bullet catalog gives weights around 200 grs for 23mm bullets, from 185 to 215, depending on shape. So the .35 Whelen existed many years before Colonel Whelen or Mr.Howe invented it.
| xausa |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/02/10 08:17 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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And then there are the .280 Remington and the 7X64, the 8mm-'06 and the 8X64, and the 6.5-.257 Roberts and the 6.5X57, in every case the Americans reinventing the wheel, with cartridges which are not interchangeable with their German prototypes, but with respect to case capacity and performance virtually identical.
| kamilaroi |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/02/10 12:59 PM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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^ aka NIH syndrome. (Not invented here)
| Pretorius |
| (.224 member) |
| 09/08/15 06:40 AM |
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Re: Finding Oberndorf Mausers in South America
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Resurrecting this old thread, just to add to the list of cartridge designs ripped off by the victors of ww1
The 6.7x63 was absolutely interchangeable with the 270 win. My late friend in Austria informed me that apart from differences in sighting, there is no difference at all, extraction of a fired case shows no changes. His family got rid of his and his fathers rifles and guns as if they were a plague, and I had no chance to make any offers after his passing, nor could I glean more info from the web. A search did turn up a drawing of a 6.5x63 that looks rather like the wildcat 6.5 06, but the 6.7x 63 remains elusive . It was designed by Neuber and Sohn circa 1911, also Austrian