lancaster
(.470 member)
01/07/22 04:15 PM
10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

came from india to canada, thanks to the new owner albertanluger I am able to post this pics here for the archive. most of you if knowing the cartridge have only see the pic in CotW before. Kuduae having a rifle sold by a vienna gunmaker but here is an original colonial piece made in suhl for the british taste. the cartridge was not realy bad with the 350 grains bullet making 650 m/sec. the later 10,75x68 had a factory ballistic of 680 m/sec with the same bullet. no doubt the x68 had the x63 as mother case. to my knowledge only the second rifle for this cartridge now so a real rarity.



























looks like 20657









the shop in Calcutta?

btw. never heard of this before "The forgotten Rodda Arms Heist" http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=367378&page=0&vc=#Post367378


degoins
(.333 member)
01/07/22 11:10 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Very nice!!!

JDL
(.300 member)
02/07/22 12:23 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Wow, taking a step back in time! Nice.

mckinney
(.400 member)
02/07/22 01:21 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Beautiful rifle!

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
02/07/22 02:56 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Calcutta? So used in India. Gaur and buffalo? Probably. Those early 10.75mm 350 gr projectiles were not very good. Too fragile. Tiger and leopard. Yes. Sambar, dear and antelope yes.

Quite a unique cartridge. What is the case head? Different or something existing?


85lc
(.375 member)
02/07/22 03:20 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

That is a very neat rifle. Markings show a September 1908 proofing.

Apparently a number of early bullets for German rifles were too fragile. I read that the bullets for the 9.5x56MS were too soft and also brokeup, wounding but not killing large game.

I would assume that with modern bullets, this cartridge would be a good large game cartridge.


kuduae
(.400 member)
02/07/22 03:49 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

This Rodda retailed rifle was built for them in Zella – Mehlis on a commercial Mauser, Oberndorf action. The Mauser serial number 20857 dates the action to early 1908. The rifle was proofed 9.08 = September 1908 by the Zella – Mehlis proofhouse, gun number 158 of that month. 72.68 is a gauge number, lead balls o the pound, standing for a bore/land (not grove or bullet!) diameter in between .400” and .409”. As the CROWN-crown/N proofmarks show it was proofed using the ”Spandau 4000 atm proof powder” for a then service load of 3.5g = 54 gr of the military flake powder and a steel jacketed bullet. The barrel was rifled by SS = Schlegelmilch, Suhl.

The 10.75x63 cartridge was developed in 1904 by the Vienna gunmaker Johann Kaletzky’s Widow plus the ammo makers G.Roth and RWS. DWM started making ammo in 1908 for Le Personne, London, an international ammo wholesaler. My own 10.75x63 rifle is signed on the ribbed round barrel by Kaletzky and was proofed by the Vienna proofhouse in 1906. It came to me as a barreled action only. I completed, stocked, finished and sighted it myself. Lancaster’s “other 10.75x63”:

The 10.75x63 was replaced by Mauser’s x68 version from 1909, the same year the Rottweil powder factory brought their once famous R5 = Rottweil Nr.5 powder. For reasons unknown Mauser merely lengthened their case neck by 5 mm with no other changes to the case body. The photo shows a 10.75x68 factory load beneath my 10.75x63 handload with a Sierra .44 caliber 300 gr bullet:

As the cartridges are of the same dimensions except case neck length, I use RCBS 10.75x68 Mauser dies for case forming and loading. As loading data is nonexistent, I went by the scarce info I found. In the 1920s the cartridge was loaded with 3.8 g = 58.6 gr R5 powder and a 347 gr jacketed bullet to an advertised mv of 2130 fps from a 28” barrel. I first loaded the 10.75x63 with 58 gr VV N140 and a Woodleigh .423” 350 gr bullet. But for “fun shooting” at paper or running boar targets Woodleigh bullets are quite expensive, if obtainable at all. So I now use Sierra or Hornady 300 gr .44 (430”) bullets, resized to .423” in homemade dies. I load those in front of the same 58 gr N140 charge for about 2200 fps from my 22” barrel. Even this download is no slouch. Alas, it is at about the same power level like a .405 Winchester.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
02/07/22 04:06 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

I'm interested if any of our members have used the .422" Woodleign 350 gr projectiles on game? How did they perform? Fragile or hold together well? Perhaps used in a .404 Jeffery?

From Kuduae's comments those .44 bullets sized down would probably perform to similar as in a .444 or similar?


lancaster
(.470 member)
02/07/22 05:03 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

thank you kuduae for reading the marks ands proofmarks. I have some rare rifle caliber, 10,75x57 and 11,2x60 Schüler, but the 10,75x63 is a class of its own.

kuduae
(.400 member)
02/07/22 05:12 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

Quite a unique cartridge. What is the case head? Different or something existing?



The 10.75X63 has the same odd 12.57 mm = .495” case head like it’s x68 offspring.


lancaster
(.470 member)
02/07/22 05:20 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

with the proof load of 3,5 Gramm Gewehr Blättchen Pulver



its possible now to find rifles out that were rechambered for the 10,75x68 later.

original 10,75x68 rifles were proofed for 3,7 Gramm:






rifles for the 10,75x61 Hänel were proofed for 3,2 Gramm

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=340523&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1


because the 10,75x57 have the same OAL like the 10,75x61 this rifles were probably proofed also for 3,2 Gramm


when all other 10,75 cartridges became obsolete after WW 2 one or the other rifle was rechambered for the 10,75x68 like buckstix Hänel Mod. 1909




http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=340523&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

and the 10,75x63 was a special aspirant for this where the work was very easy


grandveneur
(.400 member)
02/07/22 07:34 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

I'm interested if any of our members have used the .422" Woodleign 350 gr projectiles on game? How did they perform? Fragile or hold together well? Perhaps used in a .404 Jeffery?

From Kuduae's comments those .44 bullets sized down would probably perform to similar as in a .444 or similar?





Not the .422 350gr Bullet, but I shot one buffalo with the cartridge 10.75x68 and a caliber .423 347gr FMJ bullet from Woodleigh. With a perfect shot placement it went without any problems, but the year before I had shot two buffalos with the classic thin jacketed 22.5g FMJ bullet from RWS, and that was also no problem.

Nevertheless, I consider this cartridge, no matter what bullet, to be marginal for hunting big game, and I am not the only one, in Africa as well as in India. That is another topic.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
02/07/22 09:06 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

Quote:

Quite a unique cartridge. What is the case head? Different or something existing?



The 10.75X63 has the same odd 12.57 mm = .495” case head like it’s x68 offspring.




Why was the x68 the same but 5mm longer by another maker? Perhaps slinger neck was thought better for long bullets? Or perhaps avoided patent restrictions of using someone else's design?


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
02/07/22 09:13 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

Quote:

I'm interested if any of our members have used the .422" Woodleign 350 gr projectiles on game? How did they perform? Fragile or hold together well? Perhaps used in a .404 Jeffery?

From Kuduae's comments those .44 bullets sized down would probably perform to similar as in a .444 or similar?





Not the .422 350gr Bullet, but I shot one buffalo with the cartridge 10.75x68 and a caliber .423 347gr FMJ bullet from Woodleigh. With a perfect shot placement it went without any problems, but the year before I had shot two buffalos with the classic thin jacketed 22.5g FMJ bullet from RWS, and that was also no problem.

Nevertheless, I consider this cartridge, no matter what bullet, to be marginal for hunting big game, and I am not the only one, in Africa as well as in India. That is another topic.




Thanks. I know your opinions. I think any Woodleigh FMJ will perform given adequate sectional density and velocity achieved.

Woodleigh has always tested it's bullets well. In particular on real big game, water buffalo. Some FMJs were reintroduced as beefed up thicker stronger jackets. Perhaps because if some failures? Maybe more specifically for elephant? A business that responds to needs.

I'm pretty sure the 347/350 gr Woodleigh Weldcores .423/.422 bullets designed for the x68mm velocities will hold together adequately. But good to have actual experiences reported.

I thought the bullet failures from x68 old vintage ammo was from too fragile SP bullets? Not FMJs?


lancaster
(.470 member)
02/07/22 09:55 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

the last RWS made FMJ bullet was infamous for the thin jacket and the bad effect on big game. I am sure woodleigh and the belgian bullets by wim degol are much better.
there is no doubt the original 10,75x63 was only extended by 5 mm to get 0,2 gramm powder more into the case and give the bullet 30 m/sec more muzzle energy. why they did this and why they were believing this was a good idea is something we can't explain anymore. for me its enough to know how to distinghish them and what happen when.


Huvius
(.416 member)
03/07/22 01:26 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

I that the floorplate engraved "Krupp steel"
Never seen "Krupp" on anything other than barrels. Odd that they would do that.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
03/07/22 01:44 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

GrandVenuer and Lancaster, thanks for the comments on RWS 347 gr FMJs. I did think it was older bullets from some time ago

m4220
(.300 member)
03/07/22 05:22 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Lancaster, I recently aqquired a Ernst Steigleder mauser chambered in 10.75x68. Researching the rifle with Axel's help it was determined that it was built using an early (1905) oberndorf 98 sporting action & chambered in 10.75x63. The rifle had been restocked in english style & also had Birmingham proofs from 1966 as a 10.75x63, but after chamber casting confirming it had been rechambered to a 10.75x68 sometime after the Birmingham proofing. Nice rifle & shoots great!

m4220


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/07/22 05:50 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

interesting, have an Ernst Steigleder in 11,2x60 Schüler

did your rifle have the 3,5 Gramm proofmark?


m4220
(.300 member)
03/07/22 06:04 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

As the service charge was given as 3.8 gramm Gewehr Blaettchen Pulver = 58.6
gr rifle flake powder and a steel jacketed bullet, the rifle was originally
proofed for the 10.75x63


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/07/22 07:42 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

well, this is confusing

the only proof load I found for the 10,75x68 was the one with 3,7 grammm what makes sense with 3,5 gramm for the x63 an 3,2 gramm for the x61. now you have an original 10,73x63 that was proofed for 3,8 Gramm Gewehr Blättchen powder. the only catalog data I ever found for the 10,75x63 was in the 1926/27 Ernst Steigleder catalog:







funnily enough with exakt 3,8 gramm Rottweil R5 powder that was given less power and pressure than Gewehr Blättchen powder, obviously. Why did they use the military rifle powder pre WW 1?
probably because it was made to the highest standard and greatest equality when nitro powder were showing more variations from lot to lot than today.


kuduae
(.400 member)
03/07/22 07:43 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

As the service charge was given as 3.8 gramm Gewehr Blaettchen Pulver = 58.6
gr rifle flake powder and a steel jacketed bullet, the rifle was originally
proofed for the 10.75x63



The Birmingham proofmarks on this rifle are confusing: The case length is given as 2.48", that is 63 mm, but the service load is 347 gr bullet and 62 grs NC powder.


lancaster
(.470 member)
03/07/22 07:54 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

then its ok, if you are saying the proofmarks are confusing it must be a real problem

kuduae
(.400 member)
04/07/22 06:13 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

well, this is confusing
funnily enough with exakt 3,8 gramm Rottweil R5 powder that was given less power and pressure than Gewehr Blättchen powder, obviously. Why did they use the military rifle powder pre WW 1?



The Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number 10096 dates the action of that Steigleder rifle to 1905. The rifle was most likely completed within a year. According to “Der Waffenschmied” Mauser introduced their new 10.75x68 in 1909, some years later. Another year later, October 1910, the Rottweil powder factory renamed their experimental smokeless powder # 1550 to R5 and released it to the public. So a 1905 – 06 made rifle can not be meant to use the 10.75x68 nor R5 powder originally.
There are some more quirks with the two cartridges: When the Vienna gunmaker designed the 10.75x63, it was not meant for use on African thick skinned Big Game. As Austria had no colonies or interests on that continent, they saw little need for elephant or buffalo stoppers. Pre-WW1 Austria was not the small, alpine country we know today. Trieste (Italy), Prague (Czech), Krakau (Krakow in Poland), Pressburg (Bratislava in Slowakia), Lemberg (Lviv in Ukraine) and even Sarajevo were all Austro -Hungarian cities at that time. The realm of the K&K monarchy encompassed the most famous and wildest hunting grounds in all Europe. World’s largest red deer, in size approaching the American elk, brown bears (a cousin of the grizzly), huge wild boar and wolves still roam the dense forests of the Carpathian Mountains and the reed jungles of Slavonia. Hunting conditions are more similar to some of the north-western United States and what served Elmer Keith 25 years later also did the job for the hunters in those remote and unspeakable wildernesses. Elmer Keith´s beloved .400 Whelen was duplicated by the 10,75x63 and the 9x63 Florstedt occupied the place of the .35 Whelen. These were the conditions the 10.75x63 and x68 loads were meant for, not thick skinned African game.
Both cartridges were always loaded with 347 gr bullets only, but bullets of quite different designs. There were rn, flat nose ones with varying jacket lengths, hollow points and solids. And then there was an originally Austrian design called OE, an expanding full metal jacket with a large cavity below the jacket nose. As it looked like a solid, it was sometimes misused as such with disastrous results.
As Lancaster already noted, we found just one load for the 10.75x63 in an old Steigleder catalog: 3.8 gram = 58.6 gr R5 for 650 m/s = 2130 fps (barrel length unknown, likely 70 cm). But up to WW2 both RWS and DWM offered two loads for the 10.75x68: The full power load” for international use was 4.20 gram = 65 gr for 670 m/s = 2200 FPS (60 cm barrel) and a “mild load” for European brush use, 3.8 gram = 58.6 gr R5 for 610 m/s = 2000 fps (60 cm barrel). Incidentally, the same load as the earlier 10.75x63! Of course, mixing up these loads and bullet types without reading or understanding the package inscriptions will cause all sorts of mishap, from inaccuracy (not shooting to the sights) to unexpected bullet breakup.


lancaster
(.470 member)
04/07/22 07:46 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

the 10,75x63 comes frome the past, the 10,75x68 is something that goes the same way it seems. when it happen like kuduae find out the 10,75x63 from austria was reworked & extended in the mauser factory very quickly. I see the only reason for this development that the people at mauser were seeing the biggest cartridge working in a standard action in the 10,75x68.
maybe its not the cartridge for elephant, buffalo, lion but up to medium range it work on smaller game.


jgrabow
(.300 member)
04/07/22 10:38 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Just curious, do these 10.75x63's hold 5 cartridges in the magazine like the original Mauser 10.75x68's?

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
04/07/22 10:48 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

the 10,75x63 comes frome the past, the 10,75x68 is something that goes the same way it seems

maybe its not the cartridge for elephant, buffalo, lion but up to medium range it work on smaller game.




Velocity of the 10.75x68 seems to be approx 2200 to 2250 fps with a 347 gr bullet.

Velocity of the .450/400s with a 400 gr bullet is approx 2100 to 2150 fps. Calibre .407 to .411.

The old .404 Jeffery. .423, reported a 2170 fps velocity with a 400 gr projectile. Nowadays msybe 2200 to 2350 fps. The old and new .404 has a good reputation.

The 10.75x68, .423 calibre was reported as a failure on DG. Eg Harry Manners, Kambaku. Who switched to a .375. The principal claim to the failures was bullet construction.

Is the modern 350/347 gr Woodleigh Weldcores and FMJ better constructed? Almost certainly. Is 2200 to 2250 fps adequate? I would think so, but marginal decreases also exist.

Can a 400 gr .423 bullet be loaded in a 10.75x63 or x68? At what velocity? If 2100 fps or even 2150 fps? Zero practical difference to the old .404 Jeffery.

I will edit this post to discuss equivalent sectional densities.

Is the barrel twist rate the same?

All armchair stuff, given the lack of field users.

But I like it's lack of reputation ie the x68. Maybe get one nice M98 from Germany one day cheaper.


jgrabow
(.300 member)
04/07/22 10:56 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Woodleigh Bullets reloading manual has one load for the 10.75x68 using their 400 gr RN SN bullets and AR2208 powder. Max load is 2145 fps.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
05/07/22 12:19 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

Woodleigh Bullets reloading manual has one load for the 10.75x68 using their 400 gr RN SN bullets and AR2208 powder. Max load is 2145 fps.




That should be effective enough. Marginally less than ideal like a .375, .45/400 etc. But still perform.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
05/07/22 12:36 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Sectional density.

Sectional density plus velocity at impact is a key determinant of penetration. Bullet construction as a constant. Calibre size and expansion with penetration is the other determinant of killing effectiveness.

But if one looks at the .577? Penetration is important. Velocity with it increases effectiveness. But being hit with something heavy also just seems to work

https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/MichaelBartmess/Sectional+Density

.423, 347 grs. SD is .277
.423, 400 grs, SD is .319
.423, 450 grs, SD is .359

.375, 270 grs, SD is .274
.375, 300 grs, SD is .305
.375, 350 grs, SD is .356

9.3mm, .366, 287 grs, SD is .306
9.3mm, .366, 320 grs, SD is .341

.318 WR, .330, 250 grs, SD is .328
.338, 250 grs, SD is .313

.411, 400 grs, SD is .338

.416, 400 grs, SD is .330
.416, 450 grs, SD is .371

.458, 480 grs, SD is .327
.458, 500 grs, SD is .341

.577, 650 grs, SD is .279
.577, 750 grs, SD is .322
(.577 corrected)

Not wanting to keep going off topic.

The 10.75x63 or x68,
If loaded to 2150 fps or more, 347 gr bullets of decent construction will out perform the lesser .375 cartridges below the magnum (s)

If loaded with a 400 gr to 2100 fps with modern powders and a .404 well designed bullet can do what the .404 Jeffery did in the first half of last century. Buffalo, elephants, lion, rhino etc.

All from my armchair ...

I'd have no problem using them on water buffalo, scrub bull, as well as pigs and sambar iietc.


lancaster
(.470 member)
05/07/22 04:03 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

10,75x68 and two 10,75x63 side by side



DWM made, notice the x68 is the DWM case number 515A what makes the x63 with case number 515 the mother case

its possible that DWM was the very first maker of the 10,75x68, maybe with an order of the Mauser Werke


DarylS
(.700 member)
05/07/22 05:30 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Wikipedia notes data from COTW.
Larger in diameter than .30/06, smaller than the .376 Styer.
Modern powders would do well in it, for sure.

347 gr (22 g) SP 2,200 ft/s (670 m/s) 3,830 ft/lbf (5,190 J)
347 gr (22 g) SP 2,230 ft/s (680 m/s) 3,870 ft/lbf (5,250 J)
347 gr (22 g) SP 2,250 ft/s (690 m/s) 3,900 ft/lbf (5,300 J)


kuduae
(.400 member)
06/07/22 05:14 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

The 10.75x68, .423 calibre was reported as a failure on DG. Eg Harry Manners, Kambaku. Who switched to a .375. The principal claim to the failures was bullet construction.



And misunderstanding of loads and bullets. F.i. the OE expanding bullet (discontinued 1934) looked like a full metal jacket round nose, but was designed to expand. So it failed to penetrate like a solid, of course.
Quote:

lack of field users.



The 10.75x68 was unpopular in British Africa only. Especially after Taylor’s misconceptions and prejudices were published. But it was the standard big game number in the former German colonies and in all French, Portuguese and Spanish Africa.
South African Pierre van der Walt in his book “African Dangerous Game Cartridges” has a whole chapter on the 10.76x68. He and many of his relatives and hunting buddies are using the cartridge regularly for decades by now, not only on large plains game like eland and zebra, but on buffalo and lion too.
Quote:

Can a 400 gr .423 bullet be loaded in a 10.75x63 or x68? At what velocity? If 2100 fps or even 2150 fps? Zero practical difference to the old .404 Jeffery.



Pierre gives several loads with 400 gr bullets in the 2100 – 2200 fps range, f.i. 61gr H335 for 2142 fps, 74 gr WW748 for 2208 fps, or 56 IMR 4198 for 2140 fps. Apparently he favors lighter bllets for cats, lions and leopards. He has 22 loads for the 347 gr Woodleighs, top speeds 2360 to 2400 fps. With such handloads he rates the cartridge on par with the classic .450-400 NE and .404 Kynoch loads.
Quote:

Is the barrel twist rate the same?



Mauser, Oberndorf, used the same 420 mm = 16.5” twist for the 10.75x68, .404 and .416 Rigby.


lancaster
(.470 member)
06/07/22 05:33 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

and btw, the german barrel maker Lothar Walther(the Walther family in Zella Mehlis)discontinued the make of .424/ 10,75x68 barrel blanks some years ago but send you a .423/ 404 Jef. barrel blank if you need a 10,75.
the proof houses accept this without problems.

from the original DWM case book



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
06/07/22 11:11 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Thanks Kuduae. Good information.

kuduae
(.400 member)
10/07/22 08:43 PM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

All armchair stuff, given the lack of field users.



In “Hatari Times” #15 (German version) Harald Wolf wrote about his own building and use of a 10.75x68 in Australia and Africa. In Africa he shot two buffalos and assorted plains game, in Australia three water buffalo, one banteng, a feral scrub bull and several pigs with this cartridge, no problems. He used late, 1980s RWS factory loads, merely replaced the fragile RWS bullets with 347 gr Woodleighs.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
11/07/22 01:50 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

I was referring to myself probably.

But good reference to its use.

A number of Aussies have used it well. Just not on here, currently anyway.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
11/07/22 09:18 AM
Re: 10,75x63 by Rodda Calcutta

Quote:

He used late, 1980s RWS factory loads, merely replaced the fragile RWS bullets with 347 gr Woodleighs.



..."merely"...??

I might respectfully suggest that was the key to the cartridge's success on dangerous game in Harald Wolf's hands.



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